Calling the rebels terrorist probably is true in some cases but that overall picture is a bit harder to understand. While Imperial propaganda probably makes sure to paint the rebels in the most negative light possible with what I've seen it seems to me that they usually go for what could be considered valid targets while trying to minimize collateral damage. The Empire may be in charge but it wouldn't surprise me if they blame "rebels" for many of their actions either as the actual responsible party or at least as the justification.

Has anyone seen it in IMAX 2D? I'm considering spending MLK, Jr. day driving to the nearest full-sized IMAX for a fourth viewing, and am wondering if it's worth my time & money.

OK, so Edrio Two Tubes is legit awesome, but there's another member of Saw's partisans who was wearing what looked like a metallic Imperial Scout helmet - I think he may have been in one or two fleeting shots. Anyone with the visual guide know who that character is?

Unfortunately the partisan with the scout biker helmet isnt named in the Visual Guide far as I can tell.

I'm pretty sure the rebels didn't bomb a mall or shoot up a night club or school just to kill civilians. If they did then they would be terrorizing the populace, which is the opposite of what they wanted. Terrorizing the poppulace was what Tarkin and the rest did.

And just like modern militaries have their own enlisted men cook, work in the PX, or do any number of odd jobs that droids may not be prefered to do. I doubt any civilians were on the top secret planet killing space station that was being built by an Empire that happily nationalized any and all resources they needed.

I think you hit the nail on the head with Nazi Vs. French Resistance. The Rebel Alliance is not a terrorist group. It is a Partisan Group. Most of them don't attack civilians to cause fear and panic but instead play dirty against the empire military and supply lines. Definitely a fine line thing but there is a difference.

WOLVERINES!

The first death star was nearly finished when Luke blow it, but even finished, the probability of not having in civilians in such a big structure was... dim.

But Luke doesn't hesitate, and he does not so because he was a young desert native who lost his family to a military operation of a foreign ocuppation force of the most powerfull empire in his era; and then he was indoctrinated into an old religion by a bearded desert hermit; so indoctrinated that he started to hear religious voices in his head at the very moment of killing over a million people with an explosive device (as we said, with little chance of being only soldiers).

The rebel leaders did not even have the excuse of religious brainwashing, the second death star was under constuction (yes with a dead ray fully operative, but under construction), and the rebel alliance dont hesitate even a second and put to an end hundred of thousand of civilians lives (and the Empire was not precisely famous for employing only willing personal).

So... yes, it's a pretty fine line.

So, the nuclear bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, valid targets to swiftly end a war and prevent further loss of life, or a war crime killing hundreds of thousands of innocent men, women and children?

The Rebel Alliance does meet all the current checkmarks for a partisan organization, making them eligible to the rights established in the Geneva Conventions. This makes them by definition not a terrorist organization.

Of course, they are completely fictional, so all discussion is moot. .

So, the nuclear bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, valid targets to swiftly end a war and prevent further loss of life, or a war crime killing hundreds of thousands of innocent men, women and children?

The Rebel Alliance does meet all the current checkmarks for a partisan organization, making them eligible to the rights established in the Geneva Conventions. This makes them by definition not a terrorist organization.

AHHH! DON'T BRING UP THAT WAR! There was *plenty* done in World War 2 by the Allies (forget the atomic bombs - even the firebombing several cities, attacks on infrastructure and civilian locations, it just...nevemind!!) that would easily have been categorized as 'war crimes' and/or 'terrorist actions' if we'd lost the war.

The whole 'partisan/freedom fighter' vs 'terrorist' line is a very fine line, indeed .

Suffice it to say that the Star Wars universe threads that needle both ways, and makes for interesting discussing and argument - but PLEASE do not point at "real world" conflicts to compare. It's fascinating as an article of discussion in its own right, let's not try to use it as a tool to win other arguments (which still go on, today).

Has anyone seen it in IMAX 2D? I'm considering spending MLK, Jr. day driving to the nearest full-sized IMAX for a fourth viewing, and am wondering if it's worth my time & money.

IMAX 2d or 3d? If 3d, I'd do it. The 3d in this movie (and I'm NOT usually a fan of 3d) was used WELL. Even my wife enjoyed it, and she generally hates 3d...but we saw it in a traditional 3d screen.

IMAX 3d...actually, we managed an IMAX 2d showing of 'Fantastic Beasts...' (pure coincidence, just happened to be the only showing open when we were there to see it), and I gotta say...IMAX *anything* is awesome. So...sure?

Yeah, not much help, here, sorry...

So, the nuclear bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, valid targets to swiftly end a war and prevent further loss of life, or a war crime killing hundreds of thousands of innocent men, women and children?

The Rebel Alliance does meet all the current checkmarks for a partisan organization, making them eligible to the rights established in the Geneva Conventions. This makes them by definition not a terrorist organization.

AHHH! DON'T BRING UP THAT WAR! There was *plenty* done in World War 2 by the Allies (forget the atomic bombs - even the firebombing several cities, attacks on infrastructure and civilian locations, it just...nevemind!!) that would easily have been categorized as 'war crimes' and/or 'terrorist actions' if we'd lost the war.

The whole 'partisan/freedom fighter' vs 'terrorist' line is a very fine line, indeed .

Suffice it to say that the Star Wars universe threads that needle both ways, and makes for interesting discussing and argument - but PLEASE do not point at "real world" conflicts to compare. It's fascinating as an article of discussion in its own right, let's not try to use it as a tool to win other arguments (which still go on, today).

Has anyone seen it in IMAX 2D? I'm considering spending MLK, Jr. day driving to the nearest full-sized IMAX for a fourth viewing, and am wondering if it's worth my time & money.

IMAX 2d or 3d? If 3d, I'd do it. The 3d in this movie (and I'm NOT usually a fan of 3d) was used WELL. Even my wife enjoyed it, and she generally hates 3d...but we saw it in a traditional 3d screen.

IMAX 3d...actually, we managed an IMAX 2d showing of 'Fantastic Beasts...' (pure coincidence, just happened to be the only showing open when we were there to see it), and I gotta say...IMAX *anything* is awesome. So...sure?

Yeah, not much help, here, sorry...

Of course we can't assume the Allies doing the same wouldn't get executed had Germans won the war, but that's only because they were ******* evil nazis that really liked executing people.

The problem when describing war as plainly as black or white, good guys and bad guys, defeats the point of what Rogue One was trying to do and really fails to capture the horror of what war actually is.

Yes the allies in many many ways were way better then the Nazis. Lets be clear the Nazis were evil horrible people. The Imperial Japanese regime was just as horrible. Most of what the Allies strived for were noble ideals to be commended. Freedom and equality without fear of oppression. However that doesn't mean the reality always lives up to the ideal.

Take America. Our army was segregated, back home there were extraordinary levels of bigotry and violence against minorities such as African Americans. I mean for goodness sake there were still numerous lynchings happening all over the south. The internment Camps for Japanese Americans. Take the way indigenous peoples were treated across the British Empire throughout Africa and India. France brought African soldiers from their colonies who fought in Europe and then these brave soldiers werent even allowed to march into Paris the rest of the army when the Capital was liberated because they were Black. Let's not even open the can of worms that is Stalin's Russia.

War is awful and while in certain situations such as World War II clearly one side is far better then the other. However that doesn't mean even in a war as justifiable as WWII (Fascism had to be wiped out) that there aren't good and bad people filling every side. Take Rommel. From what i've read he was largely a decent person but in his patriotism he supported one of the worst regimes in human history, and eventually he plotted against them but only after years of waging their wars. Meanwhile there were people in America, dressing in robes and killing minorities, that were more like the Nazis then Rommel was and he was fighting for the Nazis.

Lets bring this back to Star Wars. The Rebel Alliance is by and large far better then the Empire. However you can't fight an asymmetrical war as they are and afford to be noble. You can strive to you ideals and try to limit collateral damage as much as possible but to realistically win a war against a state, such as the Empire who is by far your superior in terms of production, economy, and technology, then you have to fight dirty and sneaky. So sure Mon Mothma and the Ghost crew and many others are noble but for them to keep that sort of innocence means that a great deal of Rebels are willing like Saw Gerrera to do what it takes to bring down the Empire.

On the flip side you have to imagine there are many Imperials who are fighting the rebels because they do view them as terrorists. Imagine how many people enlisted to the Empire after the Death Star was blown up? A lot I bet because if news spread it probably wasnt of it being a space station capable of blowing up planets but a military base where a million people were killed ruthlessly and in cold blood by the rebels.

Rommel, called "the Fuhrer's marshal", was a hardheaded Nazi, and a good friend of Hitler, supporting him long before the war, being a key figure in the Nazi propaganda throughout and after the war, only started doubting his Fuhrer when it became apparent that the war is lost in '44.

[Rommel] is ideologically sound, is not just sympathetic to the National Socialists. He is a National Socialist.

~from Goebbels' diary

You need to find a better example.

Guys. Please. Don't get this thread about this wonderful movie locked by drifting off and discussing Nazis.

Guys. Please. Don't get this thread about this wonderful movie locked by drifting off and discussing Nazis.

Yes, we are here to talk about Stormtroopers, secret super weapons, civilians rounded up and slaughtered by their government, you know, Star Wars!

I'd say a more appropriate comparison would be Gerald Bull and his connection with Iraq's Project Babylon. You have a man designing a super weapon (albeit willingly and the weapon wouldn't have been too effective) for a government that was undeniably cruel (chemical weapons usage in an otherwise conventional war and don't even get started on Saddam's sons) who was later killed under mysterious circumstances (by some government intel agency rather than an insurgency). Still, I don't think you'll find a closer fit in actual history. Still no finding of plans or massive fleet battles, but there's so very little superweapon building in human history.

I'd say a more appropriate comparison would be Gerald Bull and his connection with Iraq's Project Babylon. You have a man designing a super weapon (albeit willingly and the weapon wouldn't have been too effective) for a government that was undeniably cruel (chemical weapons usage in an otherwise conventional war and don't even get started on Saddam's sons) who was later killed under mysterious circumstances (by some government intel agency rather than an insurgency). Still, I don't think you'll find a closer fit in actual history. Still no finding of plans or massive fleet battles, but there's so very little superweapon building in human history.

Dood, I saw 2001, that monkey-man made the first super weapon by picking up that bone and causing mass destruction with that thang! Hoomans be trying to one up each other ever since, with firearms, tanks, battleships, even the turtled-up Roman legions and hannibals elephants serving as soopah weapons!

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I thought Rogue One was a great movie. It is the prequel I've always wanted. It had a great story that expanded the Star Wars universe and added to my enjoyment of the original trilogy instead of detracting from it like the prequels. But the thing I enjoyed most was the way it eliminated pretty much all the problems I had with the movies that came after ESB. Some of the things about Rogue One that made it my favorite Star Wars movie to come out in over 35 years:

- Exciting space and ground battles that didn't make the Empire look like incompetent boobs. (Unlike ROTJ where a legion of the Emperor's "best troops" were defeated by tribe of teddy bears with weapons from the stone age)

- Believable aliens that had the same aesthetic as ANH and ESB (Unlike ROTJ where they had goofy aliens that looked like muppets and midgets in teddy bear suits or that retarded 2-headed announcer in TPM)

- No stupid song and dance numbers (Jedi Rocks from ROTJ. The only part of the Star Wars soundtracks I hate and won't listen to).

- It used familiar characters from the OT in ways that made sense and didn't feel forced (Unlike the prequels. C3PO was built by Darth Vader when he was a kid? WTH?)

- It didn't kill off any cool villains in idiotic ways (Boba Fett in ROTJ) or destroy their mystique with lame origin stories (the prequels which turned Darth Vader into a whiney teenager).

- No unfunny, juvenile "humor" (Unlike TPM which had fart jokes and an alien that acted like a blithering idiot; or the robot factory scene in AOTC)

I won't bore you with all the other junk I hate from the other movies that Rogue One avoided. You can probably guess what some of those are (midichlorians, embarassingly bad "romance" scenes, etc).

I do have some criticisms of the movie. But they are mostly minor quibbles and don't prevent me from enjoying the movie:

- I didn't like the score. It stuck out to me in several places and definitely didn't sound like a Star Wars score.

- the whole squid torture scene was just weird. what was the point of this scene?

- Cassian killing his informant seemed unnecessary and out of place in a Star Wars movie. I think they went a little too far down the "dark and gritty" path with this scene.

- Chirrut was a little too effective at fighting Stormtroopers.

- The opening movie title looked kind of lame.

That's all I can remember not liking. Is this for real? I think I need pinch myself to make sure I'm awake.

The only other thing I'll say is that although I don't have a problem with the darker, grittier feel of Rogue One since it was appropriate for the story, I don't want every Star Wars movie to be this dark. I feel like I need to say this because stupid movie studio executives seem to focus on the wrong things when a movie is successful. e.g. Look at how quickly Fox green lit a rated R Wolverine movie after the success of Deadpool.

I think the bottom line for me is that they created a movie with an great original story that removed all the bad ideas and unnecessary pandering to 5 years olds that George Lucas introduced starting with Return of the Jedi. In short, they created a movie that I can appreciate as an adult. Please Disney, more Star Wars movies like this.

I rate Rogue One a 9 out of 10.

Thinking back on Rogue One and a fear that K-2SO could be the movie's Jar-jar because of all the motion capture it makes Jar-jar all that much more disappointing. As I like to say just imagine if JJ had been presented in the same kind of way K-2SO was; providing some comic relief but also being competent and what he's doing. Jar-jar could have done pretty much everything he did in the movies without needing to be a complete idiot relying on dumb luck.

...Unlike ROTJ where they had goofy aliens that looked like muppets

There were a couple of good alien designs in Return of the Jedi: Quarren, Weequay, Twi'lek...

...Unlike ROTJ where they had goofy aliens that looked like muppets

There were a couple of good alien designs in Return of the Jedi: Quarren, Weequay, Twi'lek...

Gamorreans, Mon Calamari, Sullustans, Rancor, Nikto, Ishi Tibs, Gran, Klatooinians, and the Hutt himself. There were FAR more well done aliens in ROTJ than those that looked like muppets. Even Sy Snootles was good in 83. The most egregiously crappy one was the singer that was added in the special edition when Lucas replaced "Lap Ti Nek" (which was good) with "Jedi Rock" (which was a pile of suck). 80-90% of the aliens in Jabba's Palace were very well done, IMO.

Jim

...Unlike ROTJ where they had goofy aliens that looked like muppets

There were a couple of good alien designs in Return of the Jedi: Quarren, Weequay, Twi'lek...

Gamorreans, Mon Calamari, Sullustans, Rancor, Nikto, Ishi Tibs, Gran, Klatooinians, and the Hutt himself. There were FAR more well done aliens in ROTJ than those that looked like muppets. Even Sy Snootles was good in 83. The most egregiously crappy one was the singer that was added in the special edition when Lucas replaced "Lap Ti Nek" (which was good) with "Jedi Rock" (which was a pile of suck). 80-90% of the aliens in Jabba's Palace were very well done, IMO.

Yeah. I'm not saying I think all the aliens in ROTJ were bad. But we'll have to disagree on the specifics. I hate Sy Snootles. IMO Sy is an alien design that is stupid regardless of how good the special effects are that bring it to life.

...Unlike ROTJ where they had goofy aliens that looked like muppets

There were a couple of good alien designs in Return of the Jedi: Quarren, Weequay, Twi'lek...

Gamorreans, Mon Calamari, Sullustans, Rancor, Nikto, Ishi Tibs, Gran, Klatooinians, and the Hutt himself. There were FAR more well done aliens in ROTJ than those that looked like muppets. Even Sy Snootles was good in 83. The most egregiously crappy one was the singer that was added in the special edition when Lucas replaced "Lap Ti Nek" (which was good) with "Jedi Rock" (which was a pile of suck). 80-90% of the aliens in Jabba's Palace were very well done, IMO.

Jim

No kidding about the "revisions" really messing up the sound for RotJ. Jabba's palace and even the Ewok celebration were much better than the things that replaced them.

I dunno. Agreed on Lapti Nek, but not on the Ewok music. Yub Nub is just not as good.

I dunno. Agreed on Lapti Nek, but not on the Ewok music. Yub Nub is just not as good.

Disagree. "Ewok Celebration" is loads better than that new agey crap they put in the Special Edition.

I'll always remember summer of '83...I was 14. Our local top 40 radio station had a request bit every night called "The Top 9 at 9" and Yub Nub was the number one requested song every night from May until September.

I dunno. Agreed on Lapti Nek, but not on the Ewok music. Yub Nub is just not as good.

Disagree. "Ewok Celebration" is loads better than that new agey crap they put in the Special Edition.

I'll always remember summer of '83...I was 14. Our local top 40 radio station had a request bit every night called "The Top 9 at 9" and Yub Nub was the number one requested song every night from May until September.