So... Rebels is too "kiddy" because no one dies and Disney.. Rogue One, complete pyrric victory, and it still isn't good enough? Sheesh.

My wife both loved and hated it since everyone dies.

I think the 'they were all wiped out' is a good in-universe explanation for why Blue Squadron didn't go up against the Death star, with the 'blue didn't work against a blue screen' being the out of universe explanation.

So... Rebels is too "kiddy" because no one dies and Disney.. Rogue One, complete pyrric victory, and it still isn't good enough? Sheesh.

I've seen twice in this thread the misuse of the "pyrrhic" victory term. What happens to the Rebels on Scarif is not a pyrrhic victory.

A pyrrhic victory is one where, in gaining the victory, the victor ends up so over-extended, or otherwise weakened, that it leads to their final defeat, being ultimately for nothing, or otherwise worthless.

What the rebels get at scarif is a victory, because they came away with something worth that high cost.

Yeah it's better to describe it as a costly victory. They lost agents, soldiers, fighters (we assume all of Blue Squadron) and capital ships. And they left themselves exposed if in some way the Empire discovered where the strike came from.

But, in the end it pays off as some farm boy can come along later and take all the credit

That's the one thing I've come away with that makes A New Hope...not worse, but it makes what Luke does in the film look more like a walk in the park. ALL he did was shoot some torpedoes into a hole. Rogue One sacrificed EVERYTHING to complete their mission.

little details I liked about Rogue One:

- How Vader seems unimpressed with the Death Star. "its certainly good at creating problems".

- How Scarif was truly a turning point for the Rebel Alliance as a movement. You get the sense they had never really engaged the Empire in a full engagement before and doing so was a huge risk.

- Visually, the space battle was sublime. The movement of the ships, I can't describe it. More floaty than other films, it just felt so right.

- The characters. Each of them got a moment to be a hero, each of them got a respectful death scene.

- The Villians. Krennic, Tarkin, Vader. Different kinds of evil, all somewhat competing with each other.

So... Rebels is too "kiddy" because no one dies and Disney.. Rogue One, complete pyrric victory, and it still isn't good enough? Sheesh.

I've seen twice in this thread the misuse of the "pyrrhic" victory term. What happens to the Rebels on Scarif is not a pyrrhic victory.

A pyrrhic victory is one where, in gaining the victory, the victor ends up so over-extended, or otherwise weakened, that it leads to their final defeat, being ultimately for nothing, or otherwise worthless.

What the rebels get at scarif is a victory, because they came away with something worth that high cost.

I disagree. Every definition and example of a pyrrhic victory is that even the victor wins, in this case the Rebels, it comes at such a staggering loss. This alludes to King Pyrrhus of Epirus, who defeated the Romans at Asculum, but lost his best officers and many of his troops.

This makes Scarrif a Pyrrhic victory. They capture the plans, but at the cost of several capitol ships crewed by important members of the Rebellion.

I think the death that struck me the most was Bodhi's. He gets the message through, has his moment of satisfaction and pride, and then a trooper almost casually tosses a grenade into the ship and that's that. No build up, no final words, just dead. That's war.

I also like how they did not overuse Vader. The gave him small amount of screentime and impact. Really great

I disagree. Every definition and example of a pyrrhic victory is that even the victor wins, in this case the Rebels, it comes at such a staggering loss. This alludes to King Pyrrhus of Epirus, who defeated the Romans at Asculum, but lost his best officers and many of his troops.

This makes Scarrif a Pyrrhic victory. They capture the plans, but at the cost of several capitol ships crewed by important members of the Rebellion.

The definition isn't just a costly victory, but a victory that wasn't worth it's cost, being effectively the same as a defeat. The toll of winning the battle causes you to lose the campaign (what happened to Pyrrhus). We know the Rebels' victory at scarif was worth it's high cost, as it led to the destruction of the Death Star, and from there the destruction of the Empire.

So, I'm still bothered by the ending. In A New Hope, Vader specifically tells the officer with him that he "traced the Rebel spies to her."

I mean, I guess that's true. If by "traced", he means "murderized them with a lightsaber until the last one got away and flew off in a space ship."

I still prefer my ending for the movie. Leia isn't even at Scarif, and instead receives the plans from the Rebels who escaped while in orbit over Tatooine. Then, right as she says "Hope", boom, Darth Vader's star destroyer exits hyperspace in the background.

They really ought to pay me for these things.

So my buddy says his buddy saw a TIE Defender in the Scariff battle. Can anyone confirm the sighting? I'm skeptical.

So my buddy says his buddy saw a TIE Defender in the Scariff battle. Can anyone confirm the sighting? I'm skeptical.

Things that people claimed to have seen at the Scarif battle:

a jedi starfighter

a T-70 X-wing

Starship Enterprise

USS Defiant (DS9)

B-wings

A-Wings

and now TIE Defender.....

I saw none of these.

I didn't see anything like that, maybe he just saw a Strike at an odd angle.

Did the dark troopers unload from a TIE striker variant, or from Krennic's shuttle?

Someday maybe we get a tropical Scarif playmat

I disagree. Every definition and example of a pyrrhic victory is that even the victor wins, in this case the Rebels, it comes at such a staggering loss. This alludes to King Pyrrhus of Epirus, who defeated the Romans at Asculum, but lost his best officers and many of his troops.

This makes Scarrif a Pyrrhic victory. They capture the plans, but at the cost of several capitol ships crewed by important members of the Rebellion.

The definition isn't just a costly victory, but a victory that wasn't worth it's cost, being effectively the same as a defeat. The toll of winning the battle causes you to lose the campaign (what happened to Pyrrhus). We know the Rebels' victory at scarif was worth it's high cost, as it led to the destruction of the Death Star, and from there the destruction of the Empire.

I see Scarrif fitting the Pyrrhic analogy as the rebels, while succeeding, lost many capitol ships as well as leadership to the battle. I am treating Yavin as a seperate battle, not an extension. Even Yavin wasn't a full victory. Luke, Wedge, Evaan Verlaine and The Millennium Falcon are the only ones who survived the battle (of the forces commited).

In our history Pyrrhic victories can be found on each side of many of our wars.

I didn't see anything like that, maybe he just saw a Strike at an odd angle.

Did the dark troopers unload from a TIE striker variant, or from Krennic's shuttle?

Looked like a transport based on the Striker wing design.

So, I'm still bothered by the ending. In A New Hope, Vader specifically tells the officer with him that he "traced the Rebel spies to her."I mean, I guess that's true. If by "traced", he means "murderized them with a lightsaber until the last one got away and flew off in a space ship." I still prefer my ending for the movie. Leia isn't even at Scarif, and instead receives the plans from the Rebels who escaped while in orbit over Tatooine. Then, right as she says "Hope", boom, Darth Vader's star destroyer exits hyperspace in the background. They really ought to pay me for these things.

What transpired in the film is still consistant with Vader's line in ANH. This is how I imagine it happening:- Vader sees the Tantive IV escape, he gets back to his ship(Devastator) and tells his crew to follow the escape trajectory of the rebel ship. Enroute he deduces that the Tantive IV belongs to Leia Organa and is in fact part of the Rebel Alliance and therefore was working with the Rebel spies that were on Scarif. Devastator pops out of hyperspace and catches up to Tantive IV. Start on ANH.

So, I'm still bothered by the ending. In A New Hope, Vader specifically tells the officer with him that he "traced the Rebel spies to her."

I mean, I guess that's true. If by "traced", he means "murderized them with a lightsaber until the last one got away and flew off in a space ship."

I still prefer my ending for the movie. Leia isn't even at Scarif, and instead receives the plans from the Rebels who escaped while in orbit over Tatooine. Then, right as she says "Hope", boom, Darth Vader's star destroyer exits hyperspace in the background.

They really ought to pay me for these things.

That is a nice ending!

My ideal ending is to not let a single Star Destroyer get cooked. Because, as it stands, I go into watching ANH thinking that Star Destroyers are chump change that a handful of YWINGs and a TUGBOAT can tackle.

That is a nice ending!

My ideal ending is to not let a single Star Destroyer get cooked. Because, as it stands, I go into watching ANH thinking that Star Destroyers are chump change that a handful of YWINGs and a TUGBOAT can tackle.

That is a nice ending!

My ideal ending is to not let a single Star Destroyer get cooked. Because, as it stands, I go into watching ANH thinking that Star Destroyers are chump change that a handful of YWINGs and a TUGBOAT can tackle.

Oh you mean like the time 3 ISDs got outmaneuvered by a single light freighter and ended up crashing into each other. Or the other time when a single A-wing brought down a super star destroyer?

There's a mission in X-Wing where a single Corvette rams through 4 star destroyer bridges...

Do you guys think Blue Squadron is a squadron that works closely with rebel command and that's why they weren't at the battle of Yavin? The leader of the squadron was walking with Mon Mothma, and seemed close to her, in a bodyguard type sense, I felt.

They weren't at Yavin because they were all shot down during the Battle of Scarif, or annihilated by the Death Star blast.

Only a couple of X-Wings who didn't manage to run the shield gauntlet survived the battle.

So, I'm still bothered by the ending. In A New Hope, Vader specifically tells the officer with him that he "traced the Rebel spies to her."I mean, I guess that's true. If by "traced", he means "murderized them with a lightsaber until the last one got away and flew off in a space ship." I still prefer my ending for the movie. Leia isn't even at Scarif, and instead receives the plans from the Rebels who escaped while in orbit over Tatooine. Then, right as she says "Hope", boom, Darth Vader's star destroyer exits hyperspace in the background. They really ought to pay me for these things.

What transpired in the film is still consistant with Vader's line in ANH. This is how I imagine it happening:- Vader sees the Tantive IV escape, he gets back to his ship(Devastator) and tells his crew to follow the escape trajectory of the rebel ship. Enroute he deduces that the Tantive IV belongs to Leia Organa and is in fact part of the Rebel Alliance and therefore was working with the Rebel spies that were on Scarif. Devastator pops out of hyperspace and catches up to Tantive IV. Start on ANH.

Why even need to tell the officer that, then?

Dude's standing there like Wayne and Garth. "Yeah man, we were there."

https://youtu.be/LC9DvZH_Wgg?t=15

So, I'm still bothered by the ending. In A New Hope, Vader specifically tells the officer with him that he "traced the Rebel spies to her."I mean, I guess that's true. If by "traced", he means "murderized them with a lightsaber until the last one got away and flew off in a space ship." I still prefer my ending for the movie. Leia isn't even at Scarif, and instead receives the plans from the Rebels who escaped while in orbit over Tatooine. Then, right as she says "Hope", boom, Darth Vader's star destroyer exits hyperspace in the background. They really ought to pay me for these things.

What transpired in the film is still consistant with Vader's line in ANH. This is how I imagine it happening:- Vader sees the Tantive IV escape, he gets back to his ship(Devastator) and tells his crew to follow the escape trajectory of the rebel ship. Enroute he deduces that the Tantive IV belongs to Leia Organa and is in fact part of the Rebel Alliance and therefore was working with the Rebel spies that were on Scarif. Devastator pops out of hyperspace and catches up to Tantive IV. Start on ANH.

Didn't take much to "deduce" that the tantive IV was part of the rebel alliance when he watched it fly away from the rebel command ship.

To be fair, he DID know leia was lying about being on a diplomatic mission.

So, I'm still bothered by the ending. In A New Hope, Vader specifically tells the officer with him that he "traced the Rebel spies to her."I mean, I guess that's true. If by "traced", he means "murderized them with a lightsaber until the last one got away and flew off in a space ship." I still prefer my ending for the movie. Leia isn't even at Scarif, and instead receives the plans from the Rebels who escaped while in orbit over Tatooine. Then, right as she says "Hope", boom, Darth Vader's star destroyer exits hyperspace in the background. They really ought to pay me for these things.

What transpired in the film is still consistant with Vader's line in ANH. This is how I imagine it happening:- Vader sees the Tantive IV escape, he gets back to his ship(Devastator) and tells his crew to follow the escape trajectory of the rebel ship. Enroute he deduces that the Tantive IV belongs to Leia Organa and is in fact part of the Rebel Alliance and therefore was working with the Rebel spies that were on Scarif. Devastator pops out of hyperspace and catches up to Tantive IV. Start on ANH.

Didn't take much to "deduce" that the tantive IV was part of the rebel alliance when he watched it fly away from the rebel command ship.

To be fair, he DID know leia was lying about being on a diplomatic mission.

My only problem is that she went to pick up Kenobi instead of trying to deliver the plans first.

The rest does line up with ANH.

- Tantive opens fire at the Star Destroyer, the crew opens fire at the boarding party - so much for the "diplomatic mission" cover

- Vader doesn't buy Leia's BS, "You are a part of the Rebel Alliance and a traitor"

- "There will be no escape for the princess this time"