And sadly, Rogue One had absolutely no puppet-y CG characters riding puppet-y CG beasts.

Phantom Menace:

Rogue One:

Yeah. Game, set, match.

Also, Obi-Wan was clearly unbalanced about his master's death, not making his decision about training the boy from a place of peace; why give into his irrational demands? Instead, they ignore their feelings, ignore their Jedi traditions and training, and end up destroying everything over it.

But that was literally the WHOLE POINT of the prequels.

The Jedi were defeated because they had lost their way. They had become overconfident and lackadaisical, 'resting on their laurels', and so confident in their position that they missed obvious signs it was crumbling around them and that their decisions might finally start having serious consequences instead of everything just always 'working out'.

Also, Obi-Wan was clearly unbalanced about his master's death, not making his decision about training the boy from a place of peace; why give into his irrational demands? Instead, they ignore their feelings, ignore their Jedi traditions and training, and end up destroying everything over it.

But that was literally the WHOLE POINT of the prequels.

The Jedi were defeated because they had lost their way. They had become overconfident and lackadaisical, 'resting on their laurels', and so confident in their position that they missed obvious signs it was crumbling around them and that their decisions might finally start having serious consequences instead of everything just always 'working out'.

No, the whole point of the prequels is that Palpatine was behind it all, and had carefully planned out every move five steps in advance.

He engineered the Naboo crisis to place himself in the Chancellorship. He set in motion the creation of a clone army a decade before it was needed, making sure that they would not only be his weapon to corrupt the Senate but also eliminate the Jedi at the right time. He created a climate of hostility that would lead a faction of the Republic Senate to create the Separatists (and placed his apprentice, Dooku, in charge of that faction, so he never truly lost control). He clouded the Force somehow so the Jedi couldn't see clearly what was coming and couldn't perceive who was influencing them. When he decided to finally get a new apprentice, he had Dooku executed by him (for no better reason than a good chuckle at the look of betrayal) and gradually groomed the new guy so that he would betray the Jedi.

He's a mastermind, and legitimately seems to enjoy every minute of it.

And here's the thing: If Lucas had written one word about, say, Palpatine interceding on Skywalker's behalf with the Jedi Council, that I could accept . Sheev has the Jedi under his influence if not outright control (probably because according to canon the Temple's built over a Sith Temple), and a hint and a nudge from a Sith Lord powerful enough to flourish under their noses would go a long way to at least giving some kind of credibility.

But Lucas didn't think of that.

Saying, "Oh, it's about the Jedi, they got complacent" is ignoring my point that somehow we went through this sequence:

1) The Council (and Obi-Wan) saw the problem the boy represented and told Qui-Gon to his face, "You will not train this boy." Chosen One? Who cares?

2) Qui-Gon dies and Obi-Wan steps up to say, "I want to train this boy because I promised my master, even though I thought he was wrong."

3) Jedi Council pulls a complete 180 and shrugs with an, "Eh, whatevs, who cares if he might destroy the Jedi?"

4) Boy destroys the Jedi.

There's something missing between 2 and 3. A good storyteller gives motivation for a character to make bad decisions. Luke rushes off with his training half-finished because of his attachment to his friends. Finn is terrified of the First Order and does everything he can to get away. Jyn Erso climbs onto the platform because the only thing she's wanted for almost all of her life is to see her father again.

The Jedi Council train Anakin because... ????

...midichlorians. Because midichlorians.

The Auralnauts version.

But in typical Lucas fashion, he hamhandled most of it.

Yeah, maybe it would have been better if he'd not made any of the ********* films!!

...give me strength!

Do you realize how much of the success of the first movie was due to advice and 'guest direction' from two of the BEST filmmakers that have ever lived, Steven Spielburg and Francis Ford Coppola? Ep4's first low-angle pass underneath the Star Destroyer is classic Coppola: Tell the story via visuals. We know all we need to know about how the war is going from the first thirty seconds: Rebellion weak, Empire strong.

It's also generally agreed by anyone who knows anything that his ex-wife (now deceased) Maria Lucas was the secret genius editor behind decisions like NOT having the main character being a 40-year-old half robot and C-3P0 having the personality of a smarmy used car salesman, and spending twenty hours a day in the cutting room after the horrific first cut of the movie.

Did you know that in the original cut Luke took TWO passes at the torpedo hole, and the trench battle was almost twice as long? And was boring ? Like, super, super boring. Like, bad 1970s movie boring. Go find Laserblast if you want to know what I'm talking about.

Lucas had IDEAS, but ANYONE can have ideas. He was the luckiest man in the world to have the right combination of talent around him who exerted the proper pressure which turned his lump of coal into a diamond.

If you want to see what he did without those people... well, pop in The Phantom Menace. THAT'S the kind of genius auteur Lucas is sans outside editors. "Meesa Jar Jar Binks!"

And that was made when Lucas had been working in film for twenty-five years . If a man doesn't grasp the basic rules of storytelling after THAT long...

EWOKS...

Also EMPIRE had the least hands on attention from little Lucas... guess what... almost everybody says it is their favorite film like in all of film.

Lucas was a lucky fluckas... periood.

...midichlorians. Because midichlorians.

The Auralnauts version.

You know, I liked every Auralnauts Star Wars spoof except their ESB one. I felt it was a huge, huge mess.

Any nonsense in the PT can be covered with the convenient out of 'Palpatine influenced it in secret'. The Jedi flip on their decision to train ani? Well, look who's there on Naboo at just that time, just a few feet away? Pappy Palpy! Mace Windu goes off half cocked and takes only 3 Jedi with him to arrest a Sith Lord without telling anyone else? Palpy had clouded the council's minds so much that BAMF was supremely overconfident. See, it works!

Hey this is even better than 'the force made it happen!'

Hey, was there, like, a SW movie that came out a couple months ago? What was it called again?

Lucas was a lucky fluckas... periood.

That's just pathetic.

Lucas was a lucky fluckas... periood.

That's just pathetic.

We cannot remove all merit from Lucas. Lucas created it. It all came from Lucas imagination.

Lucas is a creator and an innovator above everything else. He created not only Star Wars, but also the Indiana Jones universe, Willow, and the first 15 years of Lucasfilm Games/Lucasarts were golden and cherised in the videogame world as some of the best in their own genres. ILM revolutionized how movies were made from the 80s to this day. THX!

In some years, Lucas will be regarded as the Edison or Tesla of cinematography.

But that doesn't mean that Lucas was great at every single step of the production for those works.

Have you read the original script of The Star Wars? Have you?

Because between that... and what we got, there was a lot of filtering and reworking. And most of it wasn't done by Lucas himself, but by many talented people that were around him.

When Lucas was young, humble and a mere mortal man, he had to allow people to meddle with his movie.

He wouldn't have got the chance to make the movie if Marcia Lucas and Gary Kurtz had not basically rewritten the whole story from the ground up, leaving only a few common places, settings and character ideas.

He wouldn't have got the money to make Star Wars from the studio if he hadn't got a star actor to sign in.

He wouldn't have got Alec Guinness in the project if he hadn't agreed on letting him change his dialogs, as revealed recently in a rare interview to the actor.

Once Alec Guinness opened the door to change his dialogs, Harrison Ford and Carrie Fisher went all in and bullied Lucas into letting them rewrite theirs also, because Guinness was basically on their side most of the time (obviously).

Lucas disliked the experience of directing talented people that complained and demanded changing the the script all the time, and not being surrounded by yes-men, so much that he had to be hospitalized during the shooting, and didn't came back for Empire Strikes Back, and most of Return of the Jedi. That is how much he liked directing movies.

He instead focused on something at which he was far more talented: creating Lucasfilm, creating ILM, creating Lucasarts, creating Indiana Jones and letting Spielberg direct it, ...

He was indeed very lucky that he happened to be surrounded by those rebellious and talented people, that took his creation and turned it into something phenomenal.

It all ended when Lucas stopped being young, humble, and a mere mortal man, and became the all mighty, absurdly rich, owner of an empire. The one that signed all the paychecks. Half ways thru Return of the Jedi. Read about what Richard Marquand had to go thru when Lucas started meddling in the shootings and changing the script and the dialogs again and again, and again. Watch the interview with Ian McDiarmid where he says that by the end of the movie they didn't know what was going on. Each of them had a different version of the script, even the director had some days a copy of the script that wasn't the most up to date, because Lucas had changed it during the night.

By the time of the special edition and episodes I-III, Lucas was totally unleashed. Some behind-the-scenes featurettes in the DVDs are cringe worthy to watch. I don't understand how they managed to sneak them in under Lucas nose. Watch the ones from Attack of the Clones and feel embarrased. Sound technicians wanting to do a retake for technical reasons, and Lucas opposing them. Lead animators telling Lucas that a jumping bouncing Yoda would look stupid, and Lucas basically telling them to keep their opinion to themselves.Lucas himself designing a corset and forcing Natalie Portman into it. It was crushing her guts and she says so!

The morale of this is that even when a person might be very talented at something in particular, that doesn't mean that they are talented at everything. And most talented people need a lot of help from other talented people to reach far.

And sadly, Rogue One had absolutely no puppet-y CG characters riding puppet-y CG beasts.

Phantom Menace:

Rogue One:

Yeah. Game, set, match.

Wait, that guy was CGI?

The worst CGI in R1 was the mind-reading tentacle monster. The less said about that, the better...

And sadly, Rogue One had absolutely no puppet-y CG characters riding puppet-y CG beasts.

Phantom Menace:

Rogue One:

Yeah. Game, set, match.

Wait, that guy was CGI?

The worst CGI in R1 was the mind-reading tentacle monster. The less said about that, the better...

The tentacle alien was a puppet with 3 operators. Much like Jabba in Return of the Jedi.

And sadly, Rogue One had absolutely no puppet-y CG characters riding puppet-y CG beasts.

Phantom Menace:

Rogue One:

Yeah. Game, set, match.

Wait, that guy was CGI?

The worst CGI in R1 was the mind-reading tentacle monster. The less said about that, the better...

The tentacle alien was a puppet with 3 operators. Much like Jabba in Return of the Jedi.

Not when they were squirming all over Bodhi.

Lucas was a lucky fluckas... periood.

That's just pathetic.

YEAH... it is, but Lucas has done some good stuff too.

I am not one of the people who hate George.

I wasn't actually trying to make a point about CGI, more that the aliens introduced in Rogue One are badasswhile the aliens introduced in Phantom Menace were just plain bad.

And that's how the whole prequel saga goes: Characters do things because the story needs them to happen, not because it's what the character would do.

That's a lot like how the classical myths were made. Homer almost literally says so: some of the suitors seem inclined to leave Ulysses' house, but because fate has decreed that all will be punished, they stay. In other words, yes it would have been likely that at least the more wary types would stop hanging around, but it wouldn't be much of a story.

And sadly, Rogue One had absolutely no puppet-y CG characters riding puppet-y CG beasts.

Phantom Menace:

Rogue One:

Yeah. Game, set, match.

Wait, that guy was CGI?

The worst CGI in R1 was the mind-reading tentacle monster. The less said about that, the better...

The tentacle alien was a puppet with 3 operators. Much like Jabba in Return of the Jedi.

Not when they were squirming all over Bodhi.

Tentacle monsters and aliens trying to eat you is what SW is all about. What, you thought it was about the Force or something?

Dianoga tries to eat Luke (bonus tentacles!)

Wampa tries to eat Luke, Dragon snake tries to eat R2, Space Slug tries to the falcon

Tentacle creature grabs 3PO, space slug chains Leia to himself, Rancor ties to eat Luke, Sarlacc tries to eat Lando (bonus tentacle!), Ewoks try to eat everyone.

Rathtar tries to eat Finn (bonus tentacles!)

And the prequels:

Big fish monsters try to eat the Bongo. (Tentacles?)

Arena monsters try to eat our Hero Trio.

I can't remember anything trying to eat any main characters in Sith. Hmmm.

I still suspect the Ewoks are hiding something under those hoods. Could it be...TENTACLES!???!!!!!???

There was a cut scene of a monster attacking Obi-Wan after he fell in the water on Utapau.

And that's how the whole prequel saga goes: Characters do things because the story needs them to happen, not because it's what the character would do.

That's a lot like how the classical myths were made. Homer almost literally says so: some of the suitors seem inclined to leave Ulysses' house, but because fate has decreed that all will be punished, they stay. In other words, yes it would have been likely that at least the more wary types would stop hanging around, but it wouldn't be much of a story.

So you're comparing a story written twenty-five centuries ago with one not even twenty years old, without taking into consideration everything that we've learned about crafting proper stories since then? Why not compare the cinema to the ancient theater of Athens and say, "We've certainly come a fair bit from the days of trapdoors and gods being lowered on ropes! Golly, that rabbitman with the poopy on his foot sure looks real, compared to the masks our ancestors wore!"

From today's standards, most ancient writing isn't much better than a high-school girl's fanfic squeeing over sparkly vampires. Comparing it to a modern piece of storycrafting is not positive for that modern piece.

In fact, I'm going to go there. I'm going to swallow back the vomit and invert that trope.

Twilight is a better love story than the Star Wars prequels. .

Hell, I even think that the first Twilight movie is better than The Phantom Menace. The director and writer know the tone they're trying to set and hold to it without deviations for useless comedy relief, endless race scenes, or pointless child stars. The characters in Twilight have discernible (if self-centered) motivations that drive them and give them both correct and incorrect decisions made - and if anything the selfishness makes them feel a bit more real. The plot in Twilight has a clear progression from A to B to C. The conflict is clear and the stakes are nice and simple, with consequences that are treated as real. The dialogue... Is just as insipid and boring, so score the same. The special effects are better in the Phantom Menace, but at least they're used in Twilight to make the viewers try to care about what is going on. The story also at least attempts to give the characters depth.

I just... I don't even know any more. I just said nice things about Twilight. I... I need to go lie down, maybe play some more Empire At War, get some perspective on life.

^that feeling you get when you realize Twilight was a better love story than the Prequels.

*BARF*

And that's how the whole prequel saga goes: Characters do things because the story needs them to happen, not because it's what the character would do.

That's a lot like how the classical myths were made. Homer almost literally says so: some of the suitors seem inclined to leave Ulysses' house, but because fate has decreed that all will be punished, they stay. In other words, yes it would have been likely that at least the more wary types would stop hanging around, but it wouldn't be much of a story.

So you're comparing a story written twenty-five centuries ago with one not even twenty years old, without taking into consideration everything that we've learned about crafting proper stories since then?

But I am probably beyond redemption in that regard; the best film I think was ever made has the word 'odyssey' in the title and a wooden acting performance that makes Anakin look like Vincent Vega.

And that's how the whole prequel saga goes: Characters do things because the story needs them to happen, not because it's what the character would do.

That's a lot like how the classical myths were made. Homer almost literally says so: some of the suitors seem inclined to leave Ulysses' house, but because fate has decreed that all will be punished, they stay. In other words, yes it would have been likely that at least the more wary types would stop hanging around, but it wouldn't be much of a story.

So you're comparing a story written twenty-five centuries ago with one not even twenty years old, without taking into consideration everything that we've learned about crafting proper stories since then?

Yes, I will happily do so. And particularly in the case of Star Wars, there is good reason to look at very old stories (though not, perhaps, Homer).

But I am probably beyond redemption in that regard; the best film I think was ever made has the word 'odyssey' in the title and a wooden acting performance that makes Anakin look like Vincent Vega.

The other thing I was realizing as I drove home is that:

1) The suitors are background characters, mooks meant to be killed by Ulysses. That means they don't need motivation, but...

2) They HAVE motivation: Ulysses' wife has a nice rack, a decent kingdom, and is in all probability a widow. Surely she deserves a good husband?

Even a story written twenty-five centuries ago gives more motivation to the background characters than the Star Wars prequels give to the main characters .

We should probably at least attempt to keep the PT chat vaguely related to R1. So... Rogue One is a much better Star Wars movie than all of the prequels. Simple. For me at least. PT fans are perfectly entitled to their opinion and it does.not.make them lesser fans or any other such nonsense. It just makes them wrong muahahaha!

Now you can have a good Star Wars movie without being a good movie (Jedi and Sith) but after 3 viewings, I still think R1 is a decent movie (even for non Star Wars fans) and excellent Star Wars one.

Why do I think this?

Continuity. Rogue One is almost but not quite seamless with the OT. Beyond minor niggles that can be head canon'd (like wtf was Leia at the battle) it doesn't break the over all story. While ok between the 3 films, the PT is terrible for continuity to the OT. The myriad reasons have been covered a million times so I dont feel the need to list them and bore everyone.

Aesthetics. Rogue One is very clearly and visually Star Wars. Much of the PT isn't in keeping with the OT. I can give a pass here though as it gives visual prompts to the overall decay of society under Sith rule. Of course the difference in time is completely in R1's favour too, but.. the Republic was what a 1000 years old? I'd personally expect a less drastic shift in technology etc for a society that had been so high tech for so long. I always expected things to be more plateaued than the PT to OT shows things. Personal preference I suppose so, like I say, the PT gets a pass here.

Focus. Rogue One "stays on target" whilst the PT stops for shiny and to me largely pointless detours on a regular basis. This wouldn't be so bad if those side stories were well told and relevant. I am firmly in the camp that both Podracing and the Forbidden love stories of I and II are so badly told they detract rather than add to the story. This is largely due to the bonkers decision to have Anakins be fresh out of diapers in Ep I. It makes so much of I and II cringy to me. The side stories of Rogue One are very brief and much more in keeping with the tone of the movie overall and the characters in them. Cassian killing the informant is brief but very telling of the character. It's both quick and relevant.

All that said, I dont hate on anyone that likes the PT. I'm jealous if anything! They have an extra 3 films to enjoy. Last weekend I attempted to watch I and II with an open mind.. by actively ignoring Jar Jar I just noticed more and more bad stuff. III next which I have fonder memories of but it still for me isn't as good as R1.

The suitors are background characters, mooks meant to be killed by Ulysses.

Even a story written twenty-five centuries ago gives more motivation to the background characters than the Star Wars prequels give to the main characters .

Pablo and co. talking about Rogue One:

Sorry for off-topic

EDIT: HA! Galen didn't engineer the exhaust port!