So, I started playing around with the new IA list builder http://tabletopadmiral.com/imperialassault/and something about the new Jabba expansion surprised me. Where the Rancor is getting loads of hype, it actually seems to me like the eGamorreans are more effective - especially for two points less.

2 red dice with a reroll is pretty much the same as the Rancor's attack against a white dice, and not far off it against the black dice.

In defence, they have a total of 16 health to the Rancor's 15, but because this is spread over two figures, they're likely to take at least one additional attack to kill.

Finally, the meta seems very heavily in favour of ranged units, making the eGamorreans even more survivable.

What does everyone else think? Are the eGamorreans likely to shake things up more than the Rancor?

hard to say, completely different playstyles & tactics

Rancor: optional 2 black dice defense (lose brutality but can now interact). Massive = really slow so Beast Tamer is pretty much mandatory. RGG = extremely high chance to get surge

ePig: Cheaper, conditional bonus defense. 1x1 = much faster than Rancor. RR = pretty much no surge

and of course there's also the command cards and "how does this synergize with the rest of my army" discussion

I think it's quite balanced but we'll most likely see more melee combats (Shyla, ePigs, Rancor, Jedi Luke, and maybe Jabba)

you've got about a 22% chance of a surge with RR and you get a reroll, so that's actually higher. Against a black die, you're getting one close to 30% with rerolls, which makes the cleave pretty good. eGamorreans are way faster if you don't have the beast tamer (maybe you've got a nexu in the list too) Rancor probably has a better defense if you run it tamed for 2black dice. I think the Rancor has a higher ceiling with the command cards for creatures and brawlers being more useful than guardians. I think that Reach on the Rancor also makes it better especially in conjunction with cleave and the+2dmg.

Rancor wins, but eGamorreans are going to be great as well.

I'm hoping the Rancor is enough to allow the rest of my list to decimate the enemy. Its' going to be at least 1/4 of the list if not more with Feeding Frenzy and beast tamer added in.

Guardian Stance and Bodyguard are actually 2 underutilized cards.

This appears to be the post with the actual discussion in it...

I would tend to agree, and add that eWeequay are also going to shake things up quite a bit. I think the Rancor is cool but doesn't have the flexibility of the eGamorreans.

I love the elite gammoreans but I think it comes down to what else is in your list. The big fella can use beast tamer to get a speed boost that the piggies can't do but that means you are spending more points, if you were running a nexu that value is well invested etc etc. As units in isolation though I agree that the piggies are fantastic.

Not so sure about the Weequays, I don't see them replacing HKs but I'm happy to be proven wrong.

The Rancor, rolling 3 dice and having a +2 damage surge, theoretically would be better vs black die defenders as they only roll defense once. So there would be more 'spill'. Against white dice, I think most would prefer Gamorreans as the chance they get 2 dodge results is small (although sometimes it feels like a 50/50 chance on dodge in practice ;-))

I think one of the main advantages of the Rancor is that it is really good vs a Bantha. Whereas the Gamorreans (though no slouch either) would be easier for the Bantha and doesn't block its movement.

I see the Rancor + Nexu being strong (beast tamer + command cards like surv tactics and ferocity)

Gamorreans look to go nice with Bossk or Shyla.

One thing to note though: the eTuskens are very similar to the Gamorreans. I think the Gamorreans are slightly better due to more defense and better cleave (though no Jundland Terror), but that seems to give a good indication of power level.

One thing to note though: the eTuskens are very similar to the Gamorreans. I think the Gamorreans are slightly better due to more defense and better cleave (though no Jundland Terror), but that seems to give a good indication of power level.

The reach ability also really helps with that. I think on every front except command cards the eGamorrean are superior to eTusken.

I agree jake, but I really don't see the weequay shaking things up. I don't think they are bad by any means, but easily the most disappointing of all the release.

If only the regular weequays were cheaper or had more surge abilities, and for the price point, unless you didn't collect multiple Hoth sets, I don't see them replacing HK, but maybe being added to them. Their damage output may have less variance than the HK, but I don't know that it's better by any means, and the TComp and Versatile Weapon are head and shoulders above the Prowl and Raider combination.

Here's how I would rank the new figures (having not played some of them yet)

regGamorrean F (can't see a reason to take these guys)

eGamorrean B+

regWeequay D (trying to think of a reason to take these over a rNexu/HG for less)

eWeequay C+ (solid, but don't compare to similar HK)

regJetTrooper B+ (cheap and mobile, good synergy with ccards)

eJetTrooper B

AllianceRanger A (good long range trooper selection)

eAllianceRanger B

Rancor A+ (what more could you ask for)

JKLuke A (going to give people headaches)

Jabba A+ (perfect on all fronts)

Shyla B+ (solid melee character that has good defense/offense/movement)

Onar C (this may be too high, he hits really hard up close, but dies so fast, may have trouble getting a decent attack off)

Vinto A+ (try him, you'll love him, his offense is sneaky good due to surge abilities)

Something like this is just begging to be played. I'm not saying it'll be the most optimized build, but I think there's some sweet synergy: Bantha uses BT to do its thing in the first round, Jabba focuses the Rancor and draws a card (huge for the Bantha's end of round shenanigans!), the Rancor moves up 10 to clean up the mess at the start of the next round. Weequays are going to be solid shooters, functioning much like HKs do in Bantha squads right now.

[10] Rancor
[9] Bantha Rider
[7] Weequay Pirate [Elite]

[6] Jabba the Hutt
[4] Hired Gun
[3] Ugnaught Tinkerer

[1] Beast Tamer

That's a lot of automatic and area-effect damage, obviously from the Bantha, but also from the Rancor (Cleave 2 w Brutality and Reach is a tremendously versatile combo!).

I agree jake, but I really don't see the weequay shaking things up. I don't think they are bad by any means, but easily the most disappointing of all the release.

If only the regular weequays were cheaper or had more surge abilities, and for the price point, unless you didn't collect multiple Hoth sets, I don't see them replacing HK, but maybe being added to them. Their damage output may have less variance than the HK, but I don't know that it's better by any means, and the TComp and Versatile Weapon are head and shoulders above the Prowl and Raider combination.

I made my case for Weequay here, and MythicalMothman put in a great damage over range chart in the comments: https://www.reddit.com/r/ImperialAssaultTMG/comments/5fnr9k/weequay_vs_hk_a_mathematical_analysis/

MythicalMothman's analysis shows a hidden eWeequay out-damages an HK out to range 7, where the higher range on HKs starts to kick in.

I think the eWeequay are (in theory) a great way to have a unit in the "Assassin" role the HKs fill while also shaving a point, which can be a big deal when you want Devious Scheme or to upgrade eTusken to eGammorean. I'll agree HKs are better with the double reroll, but eWeequay are still pretty freaking good.

I agree jake, but I really don't see the weequay shaking things up. I don't think they are bad by any means, but easily the most disappointing of all the release.

If only the regular weequays were cheaper or had more surge abilities, and for the price point, unless you didn't collect multiple Hoth sets, I don't see them replacing HK, but maybe being added to them. Their damage output may have less variance than the HK, but I don't know that it's better by any means, and the TComp and Versatile Weapon are head and shoulders above the Prowl and Raider combination.

Here's how I would rank the new figures (having not played some of them yet)

regGamorrean F (can't see a reason to take these guys) Agreed

eGamorrean B+ Agreed very similar in power level to Royal Guard. Do more damage but less speed and no stun

regWeequay D (trying to think of a reason to take these over a rNexu/HG for less) Agreed

eWeequay C+ (solid, but don't compare to similar HK) Strongly Disagree, these guys are A grade. On par with HKs.

regJetTrooper B+ (cheap and mobile, good synergy with ccards) Agreed

eJetTrooper B Probably B+ for me, I think these guys are deceptively strong. Better than eISBs and eHeavies for sure

AllianceRanger A (good long range trooper selection) B+ just because rebels don't have much synergy with troopers. They are good but still not quite as good as imperial troopers

eAllianceRanger B C for me, not worth the huge cost, up there with eWookies and eHks. Only saving grace is there's 3 of them.

Rancor A+ (what more could you ask for) Certainly strong but I don't think it's going to be much different than a bantha. B+ for me

JKLuke A (going to give people headaches) Agreed

Jabba A+ (perfect on all fronts) Agreed, though I'd put him at A. A+ would be if his abilities weren't scum only.

Shyla B+ (solid melee character that has good defense/offense/movement) Too early to tell I think, I'm not sure why I would ever take her over Bossk. B- for me

Onar C (this may be too high, he hits really hard up close, but dies so fast, may have trouble getting a decent attack off) Agreed

Vinto A+ (try him, you'll love him, his offense is sneaky good due to surge abilities) Certainly good value, though surivability is a worry and I feel he's too dependent on surges. A for me.

My thoughts above in red

I agree jake, but I really don't see the weequay shaking things up. I don't think they are bad by any means, but easily the most disappointing of all the release.

If only the regular weequays were cheaper or had more surge abilities, and for the price point, unless you didn't collect multiple Hoth sets, I don't see them replacing HK, but maybe being added to them. Their damage output may have less variance than the HK, but I don't know that it's better by any means, and the TComp and Versatile Weapon are head and shoulders above the Prowl and Raider combination.

Here's how I would rank the new figures (having not played some of them yet)

regGamorrean F (can't see a reason to take these guys) Agreed

eGamorrean B+ Agreed very similar in power level to Royal Guard. Do more damage but less speed and no stun

regWeequay D (trying to think of a reason to take these over a rNexu/HG for less) Agreed

eWeequay C+ (solid, but don't compare to similar HK) Strongly Disagree, these guys are A grade. On par with HKs.

regJetTrooper B+ (cheap and mobile, good synergy with ccards) Agreed

eJetTrooper B Probably B+ for me, I think these guys are deceptively strong. Better than eISBs and eHeavies for sure

AllianceRanger A (good long range trooper selection) B+ just because rebels don't have much synergy with troopers. They are good but still not quite as good as imperial troopers

eAllianceRanger B C for me, not worth the huge cost, up there with eWookies and eHks. Only saving grace is there's 3 of them.

Rancor A+ (what more could you ask for) Certainly strong but I don't think it's going to be much different than a bantha. B+ for me

JKLuke A (going to give people headaches) Agreed

Jabba A+ (perfect on all fronts) Agreed, though I'd put him at A. A+ would be if his abilities weren't scum only.

Shyla B+ (solid melee character that has good defense/offense/movement) Too early to tell I think, I'm not sure why I would ever take her over Bossk. B- for me

Onar C (this may be too high, he hits really hard up close, but dies so fast, may have trouble getting a decent attack off) Agreed

Vinto A+ (try him, you'll love him, his offense is sneaky good due to surge abilities) Certainly good value, though surivability is a worry and I feel he's too dependent on surges. A for me.

My thoughts above in red

For the most part, I think I agree with your assessments, Inquisitorz.

IMHO, the standout skirmish options of this box are the eWeequays, the rRangers, Luke, Jabba, and the Rancor.

It seems that the Rancor paired with Feeding Frenzy (+1 dmg, Surge for Recover 2) will be a solid skirmish option. Beast Tamer is an obvious choice in that list too. Then you can include other creatures (Nexu, Bantha) for some nice synergy, or else you could just run a Rancor (12 pts with FF and BT) and some solid attackers (Bossk, HKs, Greedo). I think that the Mercs will finally hit their stride with this expansion, and I'm so glad to see that!

I'm also super-hyped about Luke! There are SO many tactical uses for this piece in-game. But even in squad-building you've got a couple of ways to go with him: pair him with Obiwan for some heavy duty in-your-face fun, or let him be the melee interference piece for a squad of rRangers with Leia as backup. You could run a solid Heroic Effort list (ie, Unique heroes only) with Luke as the centerpiece too. I was happy to see a Rebel Hero list make it to the Top 4 at GenCon this year, so it's obvious that it could work, in the hands of a skilled player.

I used to play a lot of RGC so I'm loving the look of the new Luke. He's a beast in combat, and Son of Skywalker instantly becomes the best command card in the game now.

He's a bargain for 12 points.

I ran Kenny's Top 4 world Rebels list at Regionals a few weeks ago and won.

I think I surprised myself. I rarely play rebels (though I had been testing some eSabs + Obiwan variants lately). It was the first time I've ever used Leia. With access to rangers now, I think Rebels are in a good place.

Scum have lots of new toys now and I'm most looking forward to Dewbacks. I love a effective/efficient low cost unit.

I tested out Jedi Luke and the new Skum units tonight. Luke and the rancor are definitely the standouts. The rancor is so devastating. Whats interesting is that I'd take old Luke right now since the rancor will be so prominent for the first few months (and I'm sure afterwards, but more so right after the release). I want as far away from the rancor as possible.

-ryanjamal

The only problem I see with new Luke is that it is totally possible to flub his attack roll and ther aren't many ways to manage that ( a couple of command cards is all)

The rancor is a perfect way to keep Onar alive, he really hits hard ( like, make you cry in the middle of the night hard) but needs a distraction or shield to keep him alive.

I still haven't seen eWeequay blow me away.

The only problem I see with new Luke is that it is totally possible to flub his attack roll and ther aren't many ways to manage that ( a couple of command cards is all)

The rancor is a perfect way to keep Onar alive, he really hits hard ( like, make you cry in the middle of the night hard) but needs a distraction or shield to keep him alive.

I still haven't seen eWeequay blow me away.

Even Luke's worst possible roll (3 surges) is 2 dmg and 3 Pierce.

He pretty much negates the black dice entirely.

His max damage is 7 with 3 Pierce

But ultimately his best mitigation for a bad roll is that he gets to attack twice.

There's so few units in the game that get to do that... especially with a 3 dice attack and +1 dmg built in.

Every unit in the game can fluff their rolls. Only some of them get re-rolls.

Luke Averages 5 dmg against a black dice and 4.5 against a white dice.

We all know that Obi-wan is amazing right? Mainly due to the low cost but he hits hard too. Well.... Luke's attack is a tiny bit worse but he gets to do it twice and that's all before deflect.

And don't forget that 16 health and a white dice and a built in evade is pretty darn solid defense too.

On average, with Son of Skywalker, Luke can kill Vader outright. That's pretty impressive.

While taking on Vader is impressive, I'm worried about the rancor. I don't think Jedi Luke will stack up well against it, which is a problem for a 12-cost unit for me. He defends well against troopers, but the heavy hitters are still problematic, and the rancor has surprisingly high survivability. I like him, I just don't know how he fits into a list yet. And mainly I just haven't solved the puzzle of the rancor yet.

-ryanjamal

The only problem I see with new Luke is that it is totally possible to flub his attack roll and ther aren't many ways to manage that ( a couple of command cards is all)

The rancor is a perfect way to keep Onar alive, he really hits hard ( like, make you cry in the middle of the night hard) but needs a distraction or shield to keep him alive.

I still haven't seen eWeequay blow me away.

Even Luke's worst possible roll (3 surges) is 2 dmg and 3 Pierce.

He pretty much negates the black dice entirely.

His max damage is 7 with 3 Pierce

But ultimately his best mitigation for a bad roll is that he gets to attack twice.

There's so few units in the game that get to do that... especially with a 3 dice attack and +1 dmg built in.

Every unit in the game can fluff their rolls. Only some of them get re-rolls.

Luke Averages 5 dmg against a black dice and 4.5 against a white dice.

We all know that Obi-wan is amazing right? Mainly due to the low cost but he hits hard too. Well.... Luke's attack is a tiny bit worse but he gets to do it twice and that's all before deflect.

And don't forget that 16 health and a white dice and a built in evade is pretty darn solid defense too.

On average, with Son of Skywalker, Luke can kill Vader outright. That's pretty impressive.

Yep that's my thought too, Jedi Luke can slaughter Stormies and Vader - until I threw in Zillo and start thinking the big picture (other units & command cards)

in reality, it would be pretty rare for Luke to actually attack twice. You'd move -> attack -> attack, but then you're leaving him in the middle of battlefield to dry. Even with 16HP+auto evade+white dice he will still easily go down with focused hits, and 12pts is pretty expensive

My gut says ePigs (gamorrean) will love him since his deflect only works on ranged attacks

The only problem I see with new Luke is that it is totally possible to flub his attack roll and ther aren't many ways to manage that ( a couple of command cards is all)

The rancor is a perfect way to keep Onar alive, he really hits hard ( like, make you cry in the middle of the night hard) but needs a distraction or shield to keep him alive.

I still haven't seen eWeequay blow me away.

Even Luke's worst possible roll (3 surges) is 2 dmg and 3 Pierce.

He pretty much negates the black dice entirely.

His max damage is 7 with 3 Pierce

But ultimately his best mitigation for a bad roll is that he gets to attack twice.

There's so few units in the game that get to do that... especially with a 3 dice attack and +1 dmg built in.

Every unit in the game can fluff their rolls. Only some of them get re-rolls.

Luke Averages 5 dmg against a black dice and 4.5 against a white dice.

We all know that Obi-wan is amazing right? Mainly due to the low cost but he hits hard too. Well.... Luke's attack is a tiny bit worse but he gets to do it twice and that's all before deflect.

And don't forget that 16 health and a white dice and a built in evade is pretty darn solid defense too.

On average, with Son of Skywalker, Luke can kill Vader outright. That's pretty impressive.

Yep that's my thought too, Jedi Luke can slaughter Stormies and Vader - until I threw in Zillo and start thinking the big picture (other units & command cards)

in reality, it would be pretty rare for Luke to actually attack twice. You'd move -> attack -> attack, but then you're leaving him in the middle of battlefield to dry. Even with 16HP+auto evade+white dice he will still easily go down with focused hits, and 12pts is pretty expensive

My gut says ePigs (gamorrean) will love him since his deflect only works on ranged attacks

So does there +1 defence... so it's an even playing field! You might be right though because they are 2-3 his cost and do a heap of damage for their trouble. The thing I love about E-pigs is they don't need surges to push damage through which is perhaps something we need in an era dominated by white dice (at least where I am).

I think new Luke is great but he's not cheap and that's a factor. Ultimately though I'm yet to feel that anything is going to break the game with the new stuff. I think the Rancor is great sure but I reckon it's more psycological than anything else. Every side has acccess to characters who have pierce/extra damage surge combos (like Obi Wan or the Inquisitor) so you do have the tools to deal with it easily enough. Note that it shouldn't be EASY to kill a rancor when it's 1/4 of the points of the list in one model... If anything I reckon it's threat potential is solid for 10 points, it just illustrates how crap AT-STs and tanks are...

Luke has around a 60% chance to do 5 damage vs black die. 45% vs white die.

Is that going to be good enough to be effective? Hard to say without knowing what people are going to be playing. It's certainly not bad though.

Interestingly, the Rancor also has 60% chance to do 5, but to either defense die.

Factoring in Beast Tamer, both pieces are actually quite similar (as you would hope for about the same cost). They each also have pretty decent command cards available.

Luke seems like he'll be generally more useful, but it's hard to decide what to bring with him to really capitalize on his strengths.

eSabs work well with him. They stay right next to him to take advantage of his deflect ability or be right behind and shoot through him. And then when he charges forward and makes them focus their fire on him, the sabs can continue to unload. I love Leia, but she doesn't pair well with Jedi Luke, so i dropped her (I played a little with some proxies this week), but Lando also works well with his variable range. I brought Obiwan as well, but i don't think two melee characters worth almost half your list is a great idea. Right now I'm thinking about

-Jedi Luke

-Lando

-eSabs

-Gideon

-C3PO

That's 30 points, but I'm not sure how I'll fill out the last 10. Proabably another group of sabs, an alliance smuggler or RHC, and Diplomatic Mission for Gideon.

-ryanjamal

it just illustrates how crap AT-STs and tanks are...

I wouldn't write off the tank. You can attack twice and it's got a virtual 2nd-defence dice (~50% chance of getting it anyway if you actually rolled a 2nd def), and you can choose which to apply after dice are rolled.

I've been using it like a mobile E-Web and it's pretty good. It will die to unprotected focus fire, so you want to either (1) double-tap it, (2) move it into position to double-tap next round and surround your troops to punish all enemy that comes near, or (3) hit-and-run, can be problematic due to 2x3 Massive

but yeah AT-ST is definitely being phased-out in tournaments (and maybe General Weiss lists too). Houserule the ATST to be 10 (same as Tank) if you're playing casually

eSabs work well with him. They stay right next to him to take advantage of his deflect ability or be right behind and shoot through him. And then when he charges forward and makes them focus their fire on him, the sabs can continue to unload. I love Leia, but she doesn't pair well with Jedi Luke, so i dropped her (I played a little with some proxies this week), but Lando also works well with his variable range. I brought Obiwan as well, but i don't think two melee characters worth almost half your list is a great idea. Right now I'm thinking about

-Jedi Luke

-Lando

-eSabs

-Gideon

-C3PO

That's 30 points, but I'm not sure how I'll fill out the last 10. Proabably another group of sabs, an alliance smuggler or RHC, and Diplomatic Mission for Gideon.

-ryanjamal

I guess the argument for Obi-Wan is that you'll get more value out of the force user cards? Totally agree with you on the sabs though, Luke offers them some nice protection

I'm not seeing Luke being a power piece. No matter how many cool abilities or HP you stack on him, he's still a 12 point melee unit that can only attack once per turn (Heroic only states he can attack without using an action, not that he can break the "1 attack per turn" rule).

Obi Wan hits as hard if not harder (blue die vs red), has arguably better defense, has a powerful control ability, and is 5 POINTS CHEAPER at the expense of the delection ability and a lot of mobility from being unable to move twice and attack.