Gonna toss my vote in the "holocron is broken" camp.

Cards that get you expensive things for free are one of the more common types of effect to see bans in other games. Holocron into Mind Probe is incredibly strong with very little opportunity cost.

Oh man you got me. Can't believe how foolish I am.

He wasn't attacking you, just lamenting that we were starting all over. At least that was my take on the image.

First I'd like to say thanks to yodaman1971 and gobberlerra for posting solutions to my math question.

@yodaman1971 you did exactly as I asked. Good job. Unfortunately i asked my question slightly wrong. I wanted to draw A Holocron and any 2 of 8 abilities, then roll the special on my Holocron twice.

8 abilities as in 4 cards each appearing 2x in the deck (so 8 cards total you're picking 2 of) or 8 cards that each appear 2x in the deck (so 16 cards total you're picking 2 of)?

I'm saying 4 cards with 2 of each for 8 total abilities in the deck.

@Buhallin I don't have time for a long answer now, but I'll get back with you.

Just to make sure, so your opening hand would be holocron, 1 card with an ability, 1 different card with an ability, 2 other cards that could be anything? Or, could it be holocron, 2 cards with an ability that could be the same, 2 other cards that could be anything? The odds will be different in those situations.

Holocron plus any 2 of the 8 abilities and the last 2 cards don't matter for the resolution of the problem. Of course we still have to roll a special on the holocron twice.

@yodaman1971 Nice mathings, good to see my code matched up to someone doing it right . I think he wants 8 abilities (that is the number I used to find the 1 and 1 pairing probability) as that seems to be about the number of ones you can run which are all top notch.

@KrisWall: Getting three character dice all showing resources is a bit over 0.5% chance (assuming 1/6). That is a 10x difference.

@Starbane I think that is an oversimplification (but I do think we arrive at the same conclusion). Turn 1, action economy is relatively low value, later turns action economy will increase in value (claiming will also consequently increase in value as it gives you the first action). Playing an upgrade has the reverse effect, playing it early has high value, and the overall value lowers as the game goes on. End result is still the same (turn 1 holicron is by far the best) but it does have an elegant slide off.

Saying it costs 3 actions per holicron is either deliberate hyperbole or a fundamental misunderstanding of how the action economy works. The character activation cost is not real, as you will activate the character regardless, so that brings it down to 2. If we were to compare it to playing an upgrade normally you have a difference of 1 action (play upgrade -> activate character vs play holicron -> activate character -> activate special). You can even steal back another action if your ending pool has a special in it, though that is hardly reliable. Finally, if we compare it to a normal upgrade that is trying to generate resources it ends up ahead (play resource generating upgrade -> activate character -> activate resources -> play upgrade vs play holicron -> activate character -> activate special). That said, I do think it has the biggest impact by far turn 1, but you should expect to have an opponent have it in their starting hand ~50% of games if they mulligan for it.

@Hida77: Well, in my experience with other card games, a good matchup would be about a 60 - 40 win rate and an amazing one would be 70 - 30. In that context a 5 percentage point shift is huge. 5% number is also wrong: 8% for a T1 mindprobe in play, but also ~15% of something in play and the holicron ready to go on another character in future turns. This also leaves open chances to reroll etc if you don't have better things to do. And about half of the games you should expect to be facing down a T1 holicron. Seems to me if you aren't planning to be able to beat T1 holicron you are gonna have a pretty poor match up. It might not be completely format warping because I think you want all the dice manipulation stuff that helps against holicron regardless, but in my mind it sits as the strongest card in the set, from shear raw power for such a little opportunity cost.

@gobberlerra. We do agree on the action difference of 1, we just don't agree on what number to use to describe how many it takes. I really do think we should count the character action as it is an action in the chain of events you must take. When you are counting actions in a game whose currency is actions I don't care what the source of the action was only how many I took to get there. I think this a fair way to count actions and not hyperbole.

Remember, if you are using the Holocron to put in 2 abilities you are spotting your opponent 2 actions. Which we agree is much easier to overcome on turn 1 than turn 2. If I am playing an aggressive build and managed to put 4 damage on a character during turn 1 (not particularly hard to do) I might very well kill a character before you can fully utilize the holocron once let alone twice if you just got the combo on turn 2.

I'm not trying to say that somebody loses a character on the 2nd turn every game, but in the games I've played it's happened more times than dropping 2 abilities with the holocron turn 1.

@gobberlerra. We do agree on the action difference of 1, we just don't agree on what number to use to describe how many it takes. I really do think we should count the character action as it is an action in the chain of events you must take. When you are counting actions in a game whose currency is actions I don't care what the source of the action was only how many I took to get there. I think this a fair way to count actions and not hyperbole.

His point is that the character activation is not an action which is dedicated to the Holocron, so saying the Holocron itself takes 3 actions is misleading. You're going to use that action whether there's a Holocron or not. If you're going to consider action economy as part of the cost, you have to consider what else you might do with that action. If there is no choice - you're going to activate that character - then it should be factored out.

At the very least, you should compare it to similar cards. Character activation is a constant - no upgrade is going to get its die in without that (barring something like Ace in the Hole, of course). The speed of upgrades will depend entirely on the icon distribution. If the Holocron is your only special then yes, it can be slower. But that will apply to any upgrade with a special side - adding specials will spread your result icons.

In this way, the action cost for the Holocron will actually DECREASE as the game goes on, and you get more upgrades with specials. Because if you roll a special on a different die that you'd want to resolve anyway (such as Force Choke) then the Holocron is not taking up its own action any more.

My point is I that I don't care what the source of the action is or what else it can be used for if I am trying to get from point A to point C and I want to know how many action it takes me to get there I'm including character actions because it's an action and I had to take it. I'm not just applying this to holocron, I'm applying it to all my calculations for how many actions it's going to take me to accomplish my goal.

If your goal is to get Mind Probe into play on a character how many actions as defined by the rules will you take?

Is playing holocron on a character an action? Yes

My turn to take an action.

Is activating that character an action? Yes

My turn to take an action.

Is resolving the holocron special to put Mind Probe on your character an action? Yes

My turn to take an action.

There were 3 actions used to go from Mind Probe in hand to Mind Probe on character. Try to spin it all you want but those are the facts.

Did you overlook the part where we agreed that regardless of whether you count the character action or not it takes 1 extra action with holocron.

Did you overlook the part where we agreed that regardless of whether you count the character action or not it takes 1 extra action with holocron.

No, but one extra action compared to what?

There are certain things you can pretty reliably say will take extra actions - 4 characters will take more actions to activate than 2. But dice results really can't be considered in a vacuum. If you roll a melee damage, a ranged damage, and a resource, you're going to take longer to resolve than I will with melee damage + a Holocron special. Play it with Kylo and you've got another special that makes the Holocron special "free".

The same goes for any upgrade. The Holocron is no slower than any other special-dependent upgrade in doing what it does. It's no less likely than any special-dependent upgrade (and twice as likely as most).

Did you overlook the part where we agreed that regardless of whether you count the character action or not it takes 1 extra action with holocron.

No, but one extra action compared to what?

There are certain things you can pretty reliably say will take extra actions - 4 characters will take more actions to activate than 2. But dice results really can't be considered in a vacuum. If you roll a melee damage, a ranged damage, and a resource, you're going to take longer to resolve than I will with melee damage + a Holocron special. Play it with Kylo and you've got another special that makes the Holocron special "free".

The same goes for any upgrade. The Holocron is no slower than any other special-dependent upgrade in doing what it does. It's no less likely than any special-dependent upgrade (and twice as likely as most).

Its one turn slower than playing an upgrade directly from your hand onto a character by paying the resources. Holocron saves you resources, but cost you an action from going the direct route.

Did you overlook the part where we agreed that regardless of whether you count the character action or not it takes 1 extra action with holocron.

No, but one extra action compared to what?

There are certain things you can pretty reliably say will take extra actions - 4 characters will take more actions to activate than 2. But dice results really can't be considered in a vacuum. If you roll a melee damage, a ranged damage, and a resource, you're going to take longer to resolve than I will with melee damage + a Holocron special. Play it with Kylo and you've got another special that makes the Holocron special "free".

The same goes for any upgrade. The Holocron is no slower than any other special-dependent upgrade in doing what it does. It's no less likely than any special-dependent upgrade (and twice as likely as most).

Its one turn slower than playing an upgrade directly from your hand onto a character by paying the resources. Holocron saves you resources, but cost you an action from going the direct route.

Even more complicated then that is Holocron still costs you a resource unless you want to delay that upgrades usefulness until next turn.

Furthermore, you activate you character with Holocron and don't roll a special do you pay the resource cost to get that upgrade you need onto the character (you miss out on its dice this turn becauses you already activated)? Do you save it and delay yourself further hoping next turn you have a Holocron special?

While I am messing around trying to trigger my Holocron my opponent put a jetpack on Jango fet for the 2 resources you get everyturn and nailed me for big damage.

There is so much opertunity cost when you don't get the perfect Holocron play.

I have run the card and personally it's just not consistent enough for me to really like. And if you put efort into mitigating it's 1/3 chance (assuming you even have the upgrade you want in hand) then you might as well have just put that effort into paying the cost of the upgrade.

Sure when you turn one bring in 2x 4cost upgrades you feel like a boss... But when you end the game with your turn one Holocron still on your character you feel a little less like a boss. This has happened to me, it's not that I did not roll specials it's that I rolled them after I paid resources to get out needed upgrades because I could not afford to risk waiting another turn if I could not Holo them out.

The more I think about it the more I realize that Holocron may actually be deceptively bad. It's upside is so strong it's easy to look past just how much the card destroys your own tempo when it does not work. 1/3 chance to speed you up (actually less as you need the upgrade in your hand as well) and 2/3 chance to slow you down ( again less because 2x of the die side is not useless).

Did you overlook the part where we agreed that regardless of whether you count the character action or not it takes 1 extra action with holocron.

No, but one extra action compared to what?

There are certain things you can pretty reliably say will take extra actions - 4 characters will take more actions to activate than 2. But dice results really can't be considered in a vacuum. If you roll a melee damage, a ranged damage, and a resource, you're going to take longer to resolve than I will with melee damage + a Holocron special. Play it with Kylo and you've got another special that makes the Holocron special "free".

The same goes for any upgrade. The Holocron is no slower than any other special-dependent upgrade in doing what it does. It's no less likely than any special-dependent upgrade (and twice as likely as most).

Its one turn slower than playing an upgrade directly from your hand onto a character by paying the resources. Holocron saves you resources, but cost you an action from going the direct route.

Even more complicated then that is Holocron still costs you a resource unless you want to delay that upgrades usefulness until next turn.

Furthermore, you activate you character with Holocron and don't roll a special do you pay the resource cost to get that upgrade you need onto the character (you miss out on its dice this turn becauses you already activated)? Do you save it and delay yourself further hoping next turn you have a Holocron special?

While I am messing around trying to trigger my Holocron my opponent put a jetpack on Jango fet for the 2 resources you get everyturn and nailed me for big damage.

There is so much opertunity cost when you don't get the perfect Holocron play.

I have run the card and personally it's just not consistent enough for me to really like. And if you put efort into mitigating it's 1/3 chance (assuming you even have the upgrade you want in hand) then you might as well have just put that effort into paying the cost of the upgrade.

Sure when you turn one bring in 2x 4cost upgrades you feel like a boss... But when you end the game with your turn one Holocron still on your character you feel a little less like a boss. This has happened to me, it's not that I did not roll specials it's that I rolled them after I paid resources to get out needed upgrades because I could not afford to risk waiting another turn if I could not Holo them out.

The more I think about it the more I realize that Holocron may actually be deceptively bad. It's upside is so strong it's easy to look past just how much the card destroys your own tempo when it does not work. 1/3 chance to speed you up (actually less as you need the upgrade in your hand as well) and 2/3 chance to slow you down ( again less because 2x of the die side is not useless).

That's just it, I don't think Buhallin grasps the concept of opportunity cost. Activating the character with holocron =/= activating the character with any other upgrade. It's not as simple as "you're going to activate the character anyway."

How About eHan/eRey, and you pull 2 Holdout Blasters in your opening hand and end up with 4 extra actions, activate Han, activate Rey, Maybe deal 9 damage, and then claim the battlefield, before your opponent has done ANYTHING. There ARE lots of amazing 1st turn plays.

This is getting stupid.

The only way this works is if you roll double resources on Rey, resolve those, play both, then get a perfect roll from Han and the Blasters. Even then, you're only going to get 8 damage, not 9. You're going to start at a 9.2% chance of drawing both blasters in the first place, then about a 5.5% chance of getting the resources from Rey, then you have exactly one face on each of the last 4 that will get you the damage you want, which is about a 0.08% chance. Add all that up and you're sitting around a 1 in 263,000 times that will go off, and the timing doesn't work at all like you think it does.

If you stick to one blaster to try and get the 9 damage you're at a 31% chance of the draw, but again need exact rolls on 5 dice. That all falls out around 1 in 23,000 or so.

I know it's a given that most people don't understand probability, but come on...

There's a ton of ways this works and you don't need a single resource.

Rey can roll 3 damage all by herself. Han can roll two (2)'s. a holdout blaster can roll +2 for Han. That's 9 right there. Or can even be a little less than 9 and still kill a tusken raider or almost any non unique, even if it had some shielding.

And the 2nd holdout blaster can simply overright the first one for free, granting you +2 actions to your queue.

Resources aren't required here. They can work too however. Maybe you DO get a resource, maybe you also have a DL-44 in hand and upgrade a holdout that way, netting you +2 more actions.

Played two games last night. Lost the first and won the second. In both games the Holocron never showed up before the game was over and in both games I had a mind probe in hand that I never had the resources to play normally. So in effect I'm running a 2 card combo where the second card is useless to me without the first (yes I can discard to re-roll but then the reason for having the holocron has just been discarded). When it works it works well but it's not going to always work and there is a high opportunity cost to be paid to have those cards in the deck. Your hand is only 5 cards and having one of them a blank hurts a lot.

Even more complicated then that is Holocron still costs you a resource unless you want to delay that upgrades usefulness until next turn.

Furthermore, you activate you character with Holocron and don't roll a special do you pay the resource cost to get that upgrade you need onto the character (you miss out on its dice this turn becauses you already activated)? Do you save it and delay yourself further hoping next turn you have a Holocron special?

Two things. #1 you play both Holocron and Ability #1 on said character before you activate. Hoping you roll good and get that additional Ability #2 in for free. If not, no worry off my skin. It's an added bonus. #2 you can do so much with the free Holocron dice. That's what makes it so scary good. You get the resource, the focus (this can turn any die into a 3 dmg or special in my deck), or the specials. Even if you don't have an ability in your deck, your opponent can't leave that special sitting out there. So now they have to spend actions/resources/cards to get rid of it. And even if you roll a blank, it combos well with any control die card like Use the Force or Emperor's Throne Room.

People are missing what makes Holocron good, it's free. Sure it costs you ONE action, but it's free. And possibilities of it are endless. Sure late game it may not be the greatest, but so are a lot of other cards like a 2nd Kylo's Lightsaber or even a 2nd Support card, but that's why it's great to pitch and reroll!

I don't think the card is broken, I just think it's really good. My main problem is that it exchanges for an upgrade. So you never lose it until it's discarded. Rinse and repeat, rinse and repeat. I don't care for that, especially since it has no resource cost to it.

Played two games last night. Lost the first and won the second. In both games the Holocron never showed up before the game was over and in both games I had a mind probe in hand that I never had the resources to play normally. So in effect I'm running a 2 card combo where the second card is useless to me without the first (yes I can discard to re-roll but then the reason for having the holocron has just been discarded). When it works it works well but it's not going to always work and there is a high opportunity cost to be paid to have those cards in the deck. Your hand is only 5 cards and having one of them a blank hurts a lot.

Mind Probe is overrated. But the main reason Holocron is good b/c you can get ANY ability in for free. Immobilize or Force Throw or Force Choke are going to be better IMO than any Mind Probe.

~D

Played two games last night. Lost the first and won the second. In both games the Holocron never showed up before the game was over and in both games I had a mind probe in hand that I never had the resources to play normally. So in effect I'm running a 2 card combo where the second card is useless to me without the first (yes I can discard to re-roll but then the reason for having the holocron has just been discarded). When it works it works well but it's not going to always work and there is a high opportunity cost to be paid to have those cards in the deck. Your hand is only 5 cards and having one of them a blank hurts a lot.

Mind Probe is overrated. But the main reason Holocron is good b/c you can get ANY ability in for free. Immobilize or Force Throw or Force Choke are going to be better IMO than any Mind Probe.

~D

Fair comment. I only own Mind Probe and Immobilize at the moment.

@Hida77: Well, in my experience with other card games, a good matchup would be about a 60 - 40 win rate and an amazing one would be 70 - 30. In that context a 5 percentage point shift is huge. 5% number is also wrong: 8% for a T1 mindprobe in play, but also ~15% of something in play and the holicron ready to go on another character in future turns. This also leaves open chances to reroll etc if you don't have better things to do. And about half of the games you should expect to be facing down a T1 holicron. Seems to me if you aren't planning to be able to beat T1 holicron you are gonna have a pretty poor match up. It might not be completely format warping because I think you want all the dice manipulation stuff that helps against holicron regardless, but in my mind it sits as the strongest card in the set, from shear raw power for such a little opportunity cost.

I don;t think you understand. There are many match ups which couldn't care less whether you get a turn 1 holocron or not. The fact that it is a low percentage change to happen AND such decks exist was the point.

Also, as I said several posts ago, most, if not all of the upgrades don't automatically win you anything. It doesn't create a endless combo. It does't automatically let you win. It gives you an advantage, sure, but whether that advantage turns into a win are two different things.

What happens when you never toll the Mind Probe special until the character it is on is about to die? What happens if your opponent takes a more minor hit and removes the special you rolled? and then of course, what if you never get the combo at all? Are those games still more winnable with the Holocron in the deck than without it?

These are also factors in how "broken" this combination/sequence is. A 5% chance to maybe, against an incapable or unprepared opponent, contribute to a win? IDK, that doesn't exactly blow my mind...

And that is the point.

I do think the card is good, and probably worth it if you are already playing a lot of the ability upgrades. But for the millionth time, the claim was it was BROKEN, and I don't see that at all. And the fact that it's a 5% to maybe have a meaningful impact on the outcome of the game doesn;t support the "Broken" claim.

Did you overlook the part where we agreed that regardless of whether you count the character action or not it takes 1 extra action with holocron.

No, but one extra action compared to what?

There are certain things you can pretty reliably say will take extra actions - 4 characters will take more actions to activate than 2. But dice results really can't be considered in a vacuum. If you roll a melee damage, a ranged damage, and a resource, you're going to take longer to resolve than I will with melee damage + a Holocron special. Play it with Kylo and you've got another special that makes the Holocron special "free".

The same goes for any upgrade. The Holocron is no slower than any other special-dependent upgrade in doing what it does. It's no less likely than any special-dependent upgrade (and twice as likely as most).

Its one turn slower than playing an upgrade directly from your hand onto a character by paying the resources. Holocron saves you resources, but cost you an action from going the direct route.

Even more complicated then that is Holocron still costs you a resource unless you want to delay that upgrades usefulness until next turn.

Furthermore, you activate you character with Holocron and don't roll a special do you pay the resource cost to get that upgrade you need onto the character (you miss out on its dice this turn becauses you already activated)? Do you save it and delay yourself further hoping next turn you have a Holocron special?

While I am messing around trying to trigger my Holocron my opponent put a jetpack on Jango fet for the 2 resources you get everyturn and nailed me for big damage.

There is so much opertunity cost when you don't get the perfect Holocron play.

I have run the card and personally it's just not consistent enough for me to really like. And if you put efort into mitigating it's 1/3 chance (assuming you even have the upgrade you want in hand) then you might as well have just put that effort into paying the cost of the upgrade.

Sure when you turn one bring in 2x 4cost upgrades you feel like a boss... But when you end the game with your turn one Holocron still on your character you feel a little less like a boss. This has happened to me, it's not that I did not roll specials it's that I rolled them after I paid resources to get out needed upgrades because I could not afford to risk waiting another turn if I could not Holo them out.

The more I think about it the more I realize that Holocron may actually be deceptively bad. It's upside is so strong it's easy to look past just how much the card destroys your own tempo when it does not work. 1/3 chance to speed you up (actually less as you need the upgrade in your hand as well) and 2/3 chance to slow you down ( again less because 2x of the die side is not useless).

Sounds like someone who has actually played with/against the card more than twice. =P

This has been my experience as well. I've debated whether I would rather just improve my resource generation so that I can simply buy the upgrades normally. This has the additional benefit of not having to be used for upgrades. There are additional reasons to play the card though, so for now I've kept it. But then again, Vader is now sitting on the shelf. There are better decks, and most of them don't need/want the Holocron.

People are missing what makes Holocron good, it's free. Sure it costs you ONE action, but it's free. And possibilities of it are endless. Sure late game it may not be the greatest, but so are a lot of other cards like a 2nd Kylo's Lightsaber or even a 2nd Support card, but that's why it's great to pitch and reroll!

I don't think the card is broken, I just think it's really good. My main problem is that it exchanges for an upgrade. So you never lose it until it's discarded. Rinse and repeat, rinse and repeat. I don't care for that, especially since it has no resource cost to it.

You are wrong in that you think people don't get what makes Holocron good. We get it, most of us play or have played it, I said it might be the best card in the first set. When I play this weekend most of my games will be with it or against it. You shouldn't underestimate the action cost, especially against a deck that is able to leverage a single action into multiple actions. The rest of your above statement is pretty much correct. Most of us are arguing that there is insufficient evidence to call it broken.

Even more complicated then that is Holocron still costs you a resource unless you want to delay that upgrades usefulness until next turn.

Furthermore, you activate you character with Holocron and don't roll a special do you pay the resource cost to get that upgrade you need onto the character (you miss out on its dice this turn becauses you already activated)? Do you save it and delay yourself further hoping next turn you have a Holocron special?

Two things. #1 you play both Holocron and Ability #1 on said character before you activate. Hoping you roll good and get that additional Ability #2 in for free. If not, no worry off my skin. It's an added bonus. #2 you can do so much with the free Holocron dice. That's what makes it so scary good. You get the resource, the focus (this can turn any die into a 3 dmg or special in my deck), or the specials. Even if you don't have an ability in your deck, your opponent can't leave that special sitting out there. So now they have to spend actions/resources/cards to get rid of it. And even if you roll a blank, it combos well with any control die card like Use the Force or Emperor's Throne Room.

People are missing what makes Holocron good, it's free. Sure it costs you ONE action, but it's free. And possibilities of it are endless. Sure late game it may not be the greatest, but so are a lot of other cards like a 2nd Kylo's Lightsaber or even a 2nd Support card, but that's why it's great to pitch and reroll!

I don't think the card is broken, I just think it's really good. My main problem is that it exchanges for an upgrade. So you never lose it until it's discarded. Rinse and repeat, rinse and repeat. I don't care for that, especially since it has no resource cost to it.

Played two games last night. Lost the first and won the second. In both games the Holocron never showed up before the game was over and in both games I had a mind probe in hand that I never had the resources to play normally. So in effect I'm running a 2 card combo where the second card is useless to me without the first (yes I can discard to re-roll but then the reason for having the holocron has just been discarded). When it works it works well but it's not going to always work and there is a high opportunity cost to be paid to have those cards in the deck. Your hand is only 5 cards and having one of them a blank hurts a lot.

Mind Probe is overrated. But the main reason Holocron is good b/c you can get ANY ability in for free. Immobilize or Force Throw or Force Choke are going to be better IMO than any Mind Probe.

~D

Mind Probe is the ability the most talked about because it's one of the only real advantage of the Sith Holocron. That and Force Throw. Other than that, there is not really an advantage over 'It Binds all Things'. Except when you do achieve to bring 2 ability in the same turn or when you do use it in the same turn you get it on the table.

'It Binds all Things' cost 1 ressource, but since it gives you a 1 point discount when buying a Blue Upgrade, you can easily get it back in the same turn: Say I pay one to bring 'IBAT' to the table, then use it to drop the price of Immobilize to 1. So Immobilize still cost me 2, but now I have 'IBAT' on the table in all subsequent round. Next turn, any 2 points ressource blue upgrade can be bought for 1, the same as if I did rolled it in with a Sith Holocron and decided to pay 1 to roll the dice. So, really the only time Holocron is really better than IBAT is when you get a 3+ Ressource ability. But IBAT has the advantage of also giving a discount to the equipment (a Lightsaber for 2 points, yes please) and consistancy (you don't need to roll a special to activate it, you just have to exhaust it).

That's why I'm not that impressed with Sith Holocron. It's a great upgrade, one of the best in the game for the potencial it has, but it's not broken or even close to being broken. It's a neat trick, nothing else. I personally try to avoid randomness as much as I can, so for me 'It Binds all Things' tops Sith Holocron as a ramp platform for its consitency.

Mind Probe is the ability the most talked about because it's one of the only real advantage of the Sith Holocron. That and Force Throw. Other than that, there is not really an advantage over 'It Binds all Things'. Except when you do achieve to bring 2 ability in the same turn or when you do use it in the same turn you get it on the table.

But that is what makes both parties statements wrong and that's why they get into spitting matches. Holocron works on every ability. Therefore even if I am getting into play an Immobilize, Force Choke, or Force Training for free, it's a great card. For the broken comments to say it's awesome cause you can get 2 Mind Probes in turn #1 are wrong. For those that say it's great but not broken, aren't considering the other options of free resources that the 2 or 3 blue abilities gives me.

You have the right idea. Get away from the randomness. IBAT is a great card. I've actually switched out "Power of the Dark Side" for it

I personally think it either needs a 1 resource cost to it if it's going to be infinite or I believe it should discard after the usage. It has too many abilities to be a free, unlimited usage IMO.

~D

I think Holocron just does to much overall. This is how I see Holocron. **I want to point out this is based off what I see could happen and how I perceive the card**

0 cost to play- For an action put it out for no resources which will allow the character to roll an additional die. This is inherently good, the more die in your pool the better.

Die faces - It has 2 blank 2 special 1 +1 Resource and 1 Resource sides. You can possibly simply get a resource for playing a 0 cost card that will stay around and possibly do something later, this is inherently really good. The other outcome is the special which I will cover and the banks. Yes it has 2 blanks and you will see them but almost every die will see blanks this one a little more often but this one will a little more often see its special.

Special- When you resolve a special you can put the holocron back in your hand (this ties into what I said above again that it is free to play and can potentially get you stuff) Then you put a blue ability on attached character ignoring play restrictions<-- another thing it does! without paying the cost. So any upgrade that costs X you just saved X resources, this means round 1 without any other effects to gain resources the player can put an ability out that is more expensive then you typically could, this is without spending any of your other die to accomplish. Then you have an option to pay 1 resource to roll that die into your pool. So essentially it was a cost of 1 to play the upgrade that cost x. Now if that new die rolled a special you can resolve it immediately.

All of these put together in 1 card is why I think it just does to much. Its potential is to high. I think if the holocron costed 1 instead of 0 that changes it drastically, if it didn't go back to your hand that brings it down a little bit, if you didn't roll that upgrade put into play right away that takes it down a bit, blue character only would also take it down a bit. I do not like how it has the potential to slant a game without any risk involved because even if it doesn't roll the "perfect situation" it is still doing so much.

There is a lot of minutia to consider, it by itself is not amazing yet it just breaks the rules of the game many ways that makes the potential so high.

I guess we'll find out at worlds what Sith Holocron is capable of doing in a large event with people from around the country if not the world vying for the ultimate prize, and we don't have too long to wait.

Sith Holocron is probably the single most powerful card in the game. Vader loves them!

For such a broken card it sure doesn't seem to be going for very much. I mean, $15 is kind of on the low side for a legendary.

For such a broken card it sure doesn't seem to be going for very much. I mean, $15 is kind of on the low side for a legendary.

It is a rare not a legendary so currently it is the most expensive rare.