Do you have to be disengaged in order to use Hawk Bat Swoop?
Can I use Hawk Bat Swoop to create Advantage in a combat where I am already engaged?
For example... after a first round of combat, where I use the Hawk Bat Swoop talent to engage and then create Advantage via Force Points (in order to trigger Saber Swarm)... after this attack resolves, do I need to take 2 Strain to gain an extra Maneuver to disengage, or can I use Hawk Bat Swoop in the second round of combat (to gain Advantage) without having disengaged in the previous round of fighting?

And, at what stage would I activate Saber Swarm as a Maneuver?

Any help with Ataru talents such as Hawk Bat Swoop and Saber Swarm, much appreciated ;o)

Do you have to be disengaged in order to use Hawk Bat Swoop?

Can I use Hawk Bat Swoop to create Advantage in a combat where I am already engaged?

For example... after a first round of combat, where I use the Hawk Bat Swoop talent to engage and then create Advantage via Force Points (in order to trigger Saber Swarm)... after this attack resolves, do I need to take 2 Strain to gain an extra Maneuver to disengage, or can I use Hawk Bat Swoop in the second round of combat (to gain Advantage) without having disengaged in the previous round of fighting?

And, at what stage would I activate Saber Swarm as a Maneuver?

Any help with Ataru talents such as Hawk Bat Swoop and Saber Swarm, much appreciated ;o)

HBS must be performed from Short Range so no you would not be able to do it again from Engaged. Yes you could Maneuver out of Engaged first then do it again.

Saber Swarm must be Activated before your Attack Action so you'd have to Activate it then HBS.

The words "within Short" is used in the description of Hawk Bat Swoop to describe the range that the power can be used at. within in FFG terminology is used to denote a range band and all others closer than it. For this reason you can use HBS while engaged. If the description used the word "at" instead of within in the description FFG would have intended for HBS to only be used from Short range.

The word "may" is used to describe spending a Force Point to engage a target, this also allows you to start at Engaged. If the word must was used it would be a requirement.

Being engaged satisfies the last section of the description since all that section is preventing you from doing is remaining at Short range and still hitting.

Thank you for your help ;o)

The words "within Short" is used in the description of Hawk Bat Swoop to describe the range that the power can be used at. within in FFG terminology is used to denote a range band and all others closer than it. For this reason you can use HBS while engaged. If the description used the word "at" instead of within in the description FFG would have intended for HBS to only be used from Short range.

The word "may" is used to describe spending a Force Point to engage a target, this also allows you to start at Engaged. If the word must was used it would be a requirement.

Being engaged satisfies the last section of the description since all that section is preventing you from doing is remaining at Short range and still hitting.

Well except for the last line in the description: "If the Character cannot move to engage the target, the attack automatically misses"

This line makes it clear that you cannot already be engaged as you cannot Move to a place you already are

The words "within Short" is used in the description of Hawk Bat Swoop to describe the range that the power can be used at. within in FFG terminology is used to denote a range band and all others closer than it. For this reason you can use HBS while engaged. If the description used the word "at" instead of within in the description FFG would have intended for HBS to only be used from Short range.

The word "may" is used to describe spending a Force Point to engage a target, this also allows you to start at Engaged. If the word must was used it would be a requirement.

Being engaged satisfies the last section of the description since all that section is preventing you from doing is remaining at Short range and still hitting.

Thank you Richard

Even though the two responses to my question are at odds, I feel your explanation makes good sense.

Can I ask a further question...

If my PC is engaged and I do not need to use a Force point to engage... does that mean I can roll my full Force rating (2) just to gain Advantage, and can I also use Dark side points alongside lightside, and do I take strain to use these dark side points?

Cheers

The words "within Short" is used in the description of Hawk Bat Swoop to describe the range that the power can be used at. within in FFG terminology is used to denote a range band and all others closer than it. For this reason you can use HBS while engaged. If the description used the word "at" instead of within in the description FFG would have intended for HBS to only be used from Short range.

The word "may" is used to describe spending a Force Point to engage a target, this also allows you to start at Engaged. If the word must was used it would be a requirement.

Being engaged satisfies the last section of the description since all that section is preventing you from doing is remaining at Short range and still hitting.

Well except for the last line in the description: "If the Character cannot move to engage the target, the attack automatically misses"

This line makes it clear that you cannot already be engaged as you cannot Move to a place you already are

I do understand that argument, and for me it's what allows a GM to make their own ruling on this to suit their game. It may be that FFG left it vague deliberately, or their RAI could have been better described with a slightly modified sentence. Either way you choose part of the description is contradictory to the other using FFG's standard wording.

For me I see it as the character having already moved to Engaged previously, thus satisfying the requirement.

For a less ambiguous final sentence a GM could interpret it as any of these three:

1. (The can attack from Short or Engaged option)

"If the character is not already engaged and chooses not to spend the required Force Point to engage the target, then the attack automatically fails"

2. (The can only attack from Short option, which requires changes to other parts of the description)

"The character must start at Short and spend the required Force Point to engage the target, or else the attack automatically misses."

3. (The can attack from Short or Engaged but must spend a FP before gaining any advantage option)

"The character must spend a Force Point for the attack to succeed, if they do they must Engage the target as an immediate Incidental if they're not already Engaged. No Advantage is gained from this spent Force Point."

Richardbuxton has it right. If you need to picture it remember Yoda vs Palapatine when they fight on the chancellor seat. He is clearly engaged throughout the fight and he jumps around like a maniac, a perfect example of Hawk Bat Swoop.

If my PC is engaged and I do not need to use a Force point to engage... does that mean I can roll my full Force rating (2) just to gain Advantage

Yes. I Narratively describe this as the character using the force to enhance their body, allowing them to move around their target much faster than that target can react. It's a flurry of blows surrounding the target.

and can I also use Dark side points alongside lightside, and do I take strain to use these dark side points?

Cheers

If your character is s Light Side character then you always have the option to use Dark Side points to activate your Force Powers and Talents. But to do so you must always do three things;

1. Flip a Light Side Destiny Point. This counts as your "one Destiny Point per Action" so if you already used a Destiny Point to upgrade your check your unable to use Dark Side Points that action. Also if there are no Light Side Destiny Points left your unable to use the Dark Side.

2. Suffer strain equal to the number of Dark Side Points being used.

3. Suffer Conflict equal to the number of Dark Side Points being used.

Sometimes Using a Dark Side Point will alter the effect of the Force Power or Talent being used as well, but that will be included in the description of that Power/Talent.

The words "within Short" is used in the description of Hawk Bat Swoop to describe the range that the power can be used at. within in FFG terminology is used to denote a range band and all others closer than it. For this reason you can use HBS while engaged. If the description used the word "at" instead of within in the description FFG would have intended for HBS to only be used from Short range.

The word "may" is used to describe spending a Force Point to engage a target, this also allows you to start at Engaged. If the word must was used it would be a requirement.

Being engaged satisfies the last section of the description since all that section is preventing you from doing is remaining at Short range and still hitting.

Thank you Richard

Even though the two responses to my question are at odds, I feel your explanation makes good sense.

Can I ask a further question...

If my PC is engaged and I do not need to use a Force point to engage... does that mean I can roll my full Force rating (2) just to gain Advantage, and can I also use Dark side points alongside lightside, and do I take strain to use these dark side points?

Cheers

Thanks for your help guys ;o)

The devs have clarified that you CAN use both HBS and Move Closer (from Niman Disciple) when you're already engaged. At that point, the Force Pips you generate can go straight to Advantage (or successes, in the case of Move Closer).

The devs have clarified that you CAN use both HBS and Move Closer (from Niman Disciple) when you're already engaged. At that point, the Force Pips you generate can go straight to Advantage (or successes, in the case of Move Closer).

Good to know, I type corrected

Do you remember where this clarification is for future reference?

Well, this came up a while ago, and there was much Sturm und Drang over it. I got this from Sam Stewart after submitting an inquiry:

Since both talents just require the target to be “within” a range, that means yes, you may use them while engaged with a target on that engaged target.

Hope this helps,

Sam Stewart

RPG Manager

Fantasy Flight Games

It doesn't really clarify the question some had about whether the first Pip had to be used to "engage" even if already engaged, but the general consensus is that it does not. It does make HBS seem overpowered, but it's been noted that an Ataru Striker burns through Strain probably faster than anyone if he goes Super Saiyan. Jumping in and out of combat, using Saber Swarm, Block and Reflect will all chew through Strain, and his only way to recover it during combat is to spend Advantages that he generates. Unless he thinks he can buzzsaw through the combat in a couple rounds (and sometimes he absolutely can!), he may be better off being a little conservative with his actions until it's time to bring the hammer down.

All very helpful, thank you ;o)
This is a very useful Forum

Personally every career has it's perks, Niman allows for cool force powers to come into play, even if it's a failed combat check, Atuari is a strain buzzsaw., Shi-Cho is about raw combat efficiency and multiple person combat and so fourth.

In our group Atuari does apply to engaged combat. It's just spent on advantages. This is because minons are meant to be beaten swiftly and often our Nemesis class characters either avoid combat, or tend to have a high difficulty and/or a few tricks to keep them out of trouble.

My personal take on things like Hawk-Bat Swoop and Move Closer is that the PC still has to spend that initial Force Point to trigger the talent's other effects, namely the converting of Force points into advantages/successes (respectively), even if they're already engaged with the target. Being engaged beforehand just means that if they fail to generate any usable Force points (namely deciding that it's not worth using the dark side pips they rolled), then they still get to make a Lightsaber combat check, so their action isn't a total waste simply because the Force dice didn't quite give the desired results.

My personal take on things like Hawk-Bat Swoop and Move Closer is that the PC still has to spend that initial Force Point to trigger the talent's other effects, namely the converting of Force points into advantages/successes (respectively), even if they're already engaged with the target. Being engaged beforehand just means that if they fail to generate any usable Force points (namely deciding that it's not worth using the dark side pips they rolled), then they still get to make a Lightsaber combat check, so their action isn't a total waste simply because the Force dice didn't quite give the desired results.

I think that this is perfectly reasonable. I just wanted to know the official stance on this. I never realised how ambiguous some of the rules were.

Is there any official line on this?

Yes, a summary of the official line is:

The talent works the same at Short and Engaged range. The Intended rules are if you are already engaged no Force Point is required to be successful, all Force Points can be spent on Advantage. But Dono's interpretation is entirely reasonable, PC's and GM's should discuss how they will play it at their table when the talent is purchased.

Okay, now that things are pretty settled and clear, I'm gonna toss a rock in the water to muddy it up again.

It has been made clear that one does not ever have to use a generated Force Pip. You roll 'em, see what you get, and decide from there. You can also choose what aspects of them to use, even if it seems like you use one first, then use the leftovers. As an example, if I have FR 1, and I use Saber Throw, I know that it's kind of a desperate attack, as I need 2 FP to hit and have it come back. Chances are, I'm only getting one, so hopefully I can drop the enemy in one hit and retrieve my saber the next round.

I make my roll: Failure, with one Dark Pip. I've thrown the Saber, badly. I'm not required to use that Dark Pip, but if I do, I'm also not required to spend it on attempting to hit. Since I missed, I can use that pip to call my saber back to my hand.

Now then, let's apply this to Hawk Bat Swoop. If I'm at Short range to my enemy, and I use Hawk Bat Swoop, I am not required to spend those pips to engage. Obviously, if I don't, I can't hit him, but if I miss the attack anyway, it may be better not to be standing as a big, juicy target right next to him (this is also important for a Niman Disciple using Move Closer). Here's the kicker: Can I still use the Force Pips to generate Advantage? Hey, I'm running Ataru, I need all the strain recovery I can get!

Under Dono's interpretation: probably not (well, maybe if I spent the first pip to do nothing, and had some left over). Personally, I would say yes. I would say that if you use Hawk Bat Swoop, even without using the Force Pips, you're still making a leaping, acrobatic attack, it's just not as Force-fueled, not as committed. Narratively, I would say, "I leap in, doing a rodeo flip, stabbing out with my lightsaber, but it's pretty clear I'm not getting through his defenses. As he easily parries and steps back, I let him go, catching my breath as I eye him threateningly."

So there's another monkey wrench to take into consideration. HBS is such a simple talent, who would have thought there are so many complications?

Under the example you gave for Hawk Bat Swoop, I'd say no you couldn't, since you completely failed to activate the talent as you're at short range.

Per the devs, you'd still fail since in order to have the talent take effect, you need to spend a Force point to get to engaged, which in the example you failed to do. You're not engaged, you don't get to attack, and thus get nothing. It'd be akin to saying "well, I failed my Coercion check to use Scathing Tirade, but can still spend Advantages to inflict additional stress on the target, right?"

Frankly, I think it falls under the header of "if it looks too good to be true, it probably is." And trust me, I know how strain-hungry an Ataru Striker can be. But there are other means to handle your strain expenditure.