Prodigious size alone makes it hard to lift , Sil 4 objects are 4 difficulty anything larger than sil 5 is actually impossible and needs the spending of a destiny point to attempt.

Lifting a Sil4 object is easy: you need 65XP, 2 pips, and no difficulty check.

I should have said throw. However your probably not going to kill a vehicle by dropping it.

Actually, you probably would if physics were followed. I've seen the results of a Stryker driving out on an unfinished overpass. Fall was about 20 feet/6 meters (Short range by this game's standards), and it destroyed the vehicle and killed or injured most of the crew.

Physics and Star Wars do not like each other just Ask Neil Degrasse Tyson about ANH and he will tell you the only thing they got right is that in order for life to exist on Tatooine it would require that it's binary star system have its stars close together which it does.

Now that doesn't mean you can't apply physics to your game, I just won't cause I feel Star Wars throws it out the window anyway so it's not in my GM's toolbox for this specific game, other more realistic RPG's sure but this isn't really the place to say Physics is the be all end all.

There still needs to be some semblance of sensibility. If the game rules make falls horrifically dangerous for characters (presumably through 'physics' as an in-character explanation), why wouldn't such falls also have proportional effects upon vehicles?

A vehicle will take fall damage but it would need to fall from higher according to Star Wars lack of actual physics, to assume physics makes sense in Star Wars is to overlook Starkiller Base.

Alright, Move Rebuild 2.0

Changes:

Included the opposed check requirement in the basic power description.

Added the "escape clause" to the Duration upgrade.

Changed Push from an attack to an addon effect that deals damage and knocks enemies over using successes and advantages from the opposed check to move them. Easier, and allows truly devastating attacks when rolling against low resilience enemies without turning Move into a pure damage power. Renamed to Control: Impact.

Added a Control: Speed upgrade that allows moving the object by two range bands as per Richardbuxton's suggestion.

Made the Control:Throw description more specific.

Reaised the cost of some Control powers by 5 XP each.

A vehicle will take fall damage but it would need to fall from higher according to Star Wars lack of actual physics, to assume physics makes sense in Star Wars is to overlook Starkiller Base.

I think the source material, primarily ESB, shows that an AT-AT is likely to suffer considerable damage from a GLF. It stands to reason--even the most loose and tenuous reason--that actually lifting it up and dropping it from any added height is going to be even more devastating.

Yes you'd also be safe to assume it fell from higher necessary to kill a man. Therefore my point still stands and we are both happy.

Well, to be fair, when the AT-AT is destroyed after falling over it's because two airspeeders blasted its exposed neck, not because it fell over.

Well, to be fair, when the AT-AT is destroyed after falling over it's because two airspeeders blasted its exposed neck, not because it fell over.

Score another one on the lack of Physics table!

I understand fully your point of view HappyDaze but we can rule things differently on each other's table.

There is no rule that stops you from moving something from close to extreme range in a single turn. Bind has a rule like that, Move does not.

You completely ignored the second paragraph of his post wherein he quotes the description of the power which states: "When moving items, the default speed is slow and deliberate, not fast enough to inflict injury …" To move the character with alacrity (even straight up without inflicting injury - the qualifying phrase here is "fast enough to") one must make the opposed check ... period. Think C-3P0 on Endor, slow and steady.

There still is no rule that explicitly states a limitation to where you can move something to "slowly and deliberately". It's just a bit of flavor text that isn't backed up by any mechanics. It doesn't say anywhere how many range bands you can move someone. Of course the power should work like C-3PO on Endor, but a simple mention of only being able to move things by one range band per turn would have codified that in a way that isn't just pointing at a piece of flavor text and inferring mechanical limitations from it. There is nothing fallacious about pointing out that FFG didn't provide reasonable mechanical limits to the power, what's fallacious is insisting that your subjective interpretation of the flavor text is a counter argument to someone saying that there is no mechanical limit given.

Anyways, my rewrite includes a power that works mechanically the way you think it should work based on the flavor text. The disconnect between mechanics and theme in the original rules is all I was pointing out.

Your rewrite allows still at least 30km/h move, lore likely even 50km/h, it is quite the distance from long to extreme.Furthermore a fall from extreme to long is gonna plenty of deadly. ;-)

Range bands without common sense are … problematic.

Lastly: What ar you talking about flavor text. The rules for move are not in the talent boxes, they are in the descriptions of each power and and subsections. Same as with talents, that is not flavor text, that is rules text and actually the detailed descriptions are more important than the short summaries in the boxes. Same for talent and same for equipment as well which comes often with mechanical limitations or advantages in that text which is not even mentioned in the pure stateline.A lot of weapon attachments are for example restricted to certain weapon types and this will be only mentioned in those texts as well. This is rules text not flavor text. And the rules say slow. How slow? That is up to the GM to decide and that's it. GMs are as well a core mechanic of most roleplay games. ;-)

Your rewrite allows still at least 30km/h move, lore likely even 50km/h, it is quite the distance from long to extreme.Furthermore a fall from extreme to long is gonna plenty of deadly. ;-)

Range bands without common sense are … problematic.

Sure, but even just standard movement requires you to assume variable turn length or character speed when it comes to range bands. If I understand the range bands correctly Short range is about 10m, and it's one maneuver to cross that distance. Medium range is about 50 meters, and it also takes one maneuver to cross that distance. Long range is about 300 meters, and it takes two maneuvers to cross that distance. Extreme range is about 1000m, and it again takes two maneuvers to cross that distance.

So, given those rough numbers, if two characters stand 1000 meters apart and I walk between them, then it takes me two moves to get from extreme to long for the one I'm moving toward, and in the same number of maneuvers I would have gone from Engaged to Medium for the other character. So I've moved 700 meters for one of them and 50 for the other. It just doesn't make sense if you're too concerned about the exact distances, you have to accept the range bands as abstract measures.

It is very ill defined and open to abuses like dropping enemies from ranges where the game specifies instant defeat as the result, or moving half a dozen people by 5 range bands in a single action.

If you ignore the freaking rules than for sure you can teleport people slowly around the battlefield. But the rules explicitly forbid high speed moves without having a target and making that range check, furthermore if we rules lawler it you would need two actions as lifting resisting targets is one check and a range combat check is another one and thus you need two actions to shoot them full speed ahead away.

And on top this are bind and move two very different powers in canon, you explicitly ignore the Palpatine vs Maul and Savage Opress video which I have posted several times which shows you how different both force powers are. One binds and one does not. Move does not immobilize my target, it can still spend maneuvers just fine. Both are telekinetic powers, but so is mental tools. You will not call them doing the same thing either? ;-)

So when people get thrown against walls and are out of the fight for a while what would you call that? Maybe being immobilized and disoriented? Nah, that can't be, Move can't do that.

So when people get thrown against walls and are out of the fight for a while what would you call that? Maybe being immobilized and disoriented? Nah, that can't be, Move can't do that.

I would call it exceeding their ST. Move can do that.

The best example of how far Range is is the "verbal communication" example.

Engaged is "you could whisper in their ear"

Short is "you can talk quietly to them"

Medium is "talking normally will be enough"

Long is "you need to shout to communicate"

Extreme is "no comunication by voice is possible"

But since Time and Distance is squishy in this system, and not everything a character does in a round is measured, there is a lot of wiggle room.

A Range upgrade could be narrated a number of ways:

"The character has learnt to focus longer on moving their target while still dodging Blaster fire, allowing them to move objects further in the same amount of time"

"The character puts more effort into moving the target, they then move faster on the way, allowing them to move objects further in the same amount of time"

"The character has honed their ability to focus the Force, they can interact at greater distance when moving objects"

So when people get thrown against walls and are out of the fight for a while what would you call that? Maybe being immobilized and disoriented? Nah, that can't be, Move can't do that.

I call that spending a Triumph in a cool way.

So, given those rough numbers, if two characters stand 1000 meters apart and I walk between them, then it takes me two moves to get from extreme to long for the one I'm moving toward, and in the same number of maneuvers I would have gone from Engaged to Medium for the other character. So I've moved 700 meters for one of them and 50 for the other. It just doesn't make sense if you're too concerned about the exact distances, you have to accept the range bands as abstract measures.

You know. let's go with that.

Let's look at a few base facts and see if we can agree on them. Slow is not as fast as running and spending maneuvers to move as much as possible in a turn represents moving swiftly around the battlefield. The slowest minions should still faster than "slowly and deliberately" moving objects.

Now you said it takes one maneuver from short to medium, two maneuvers from medium to long and another two from long to extreme. 5 Maneuvers in total. We can conclude that even in the most conservative judgment it should take an object 6 rounds to get lifted up into the air with the move power. 6 rounds in which a the target can use its own maneuvers, fire its weapons or spend its action for anything else and do something about the problem. A clone trooper for example could use just fine his grappling hook to prevent getting lifted up that high by simply spending his own maneuvers to move into the opposite directions. Move is not bind, move does not prevent your target from spending its own maneuvers for their own movement. And their own move maneuvers are not required by the rules to be slow and deliberate.

So when people get thrown against walls and are out of the fight for a while what would you call that? Maybe being immobilized and disoriented? Nah, that can't be, Move can't do that.

I would call it using Advantages and Triumphs on a successful Move power check.

I would call it using Advantages and Triumphs on a successful Move power check.

Sure, but that's not part of Move as written, that's purely GM discretion, so it's a bit iffy to argue that the rules were written with that in mind. It is in my rewrite though.

I would call it using Advantages and Triumphs on a successful Move power check.

Sure, but that's not part of Move as written, that's purely GM discretion, so it's a bit iffy to argue that the rules were written with that in mind. It is in my rewrite though.

Move is definitely able to knock someone unconscious, as Happy said. Otherwise the check is a Combat check so Advantage/Triumph can be used as normal.

Throwing objects at someone is a combat check, simply moving them is a standard opposed check.

I would call it using Advantages and Triumphs on a successful Move power check.

Sure, but that's not part of Move as written, that's purely GM discretion, so it's a bit iffy to argue that the rules were written with that in mind. It is in my rewrite though.

That is the most basic core mechanic of FFGSWRPG. You keep ignoring the rules constantly and then complain that stuff is missing. Slamming someone against a wall requires absolutely a range combat check, there is no way around that. And range combat check follows the rules of range combat checks, which includes spending advantages and triumphs. AoR P219 for example, Table 6.2, 3 Advantages or a Triumph "When dealing damage to a target, have the attack disable the opponent or a piece of gear rather than dealing wounds or strain." The crit table is explicitly stated as source for ideas what the attack did exactly and that table offers staggered as option.

Throwing someone against a wall for them to slump to the floor unconscious, which is what was suggested, is absolutely a Combat check. Your using Move to cause damage.

So when people get thrown against walls and are out of the fight for a while what would you call that? Maybe being immobilized and disoriented? Nah, that can't be, Move can't do that.

From here. although I can't tell now what your actual point of this post was, and not through any fault it's just expression lost in text.

Throwing someone against a wall for them to slump to the floor unconscious, which is what was suggested, is absolutely a Combat check. Your using Move to cause damage.

You're not wrong, but there are no direct rules for it in the Move power as FFG has written it. What's the attack difficulty of throwing someone into a wall? What's the base damage? What's the crit rating? Can it activate control effects?

You're basically insisting that one of the most common things you see happen in the movies that's fully mechanically explained by one power is in fact a house rule of another power, just because you are hung up on the names of the powers.

I mean, Sense, Seek and Foresee, all powers that grant you extrasensory knowledge of the universe, yet everyone understands that they have their own role to fill and if you want to make a character who has supreme insight you need all three of them.

Influence and Misdirect, both powers that are used to deceive people, yet everyone understands that they have their own role to fill and if you want to make a character who is the ultimate force trickster you need to have both of them.

Move and Bind, both powers that are used to manipulate the physical universe through telekinesis, yet some people think one of them does it all and the other can simply be disregarded as "Only force choke".

Reality is, Bind contains all the control effects that you can produce through telekinesis, and without having to invoke a rule that says that with the permission of the GM you can spend three advantages to grant a disabling effect that is "temporary and not too excessive" to one enemy (which you can do just as well with a vibro knife as with force move by that rule). Having to use multiple powers to master a specific aspect of the force isn't some kind of insane imposition, it's perfectly reasonable.

Move, throwing someone into a wall:

You use the normal "Hurl" control upgrade to throw the silhouette 1 "object" at the "target" which in this case is the wall. The "object" & "target" suffers the same damage, therefore you get a nice little crumple in the soft wall and the "object" suffers 10+Success-Soak damage. If that amount of damage happens to be more than the targets Wound Threshold then they are now unconscious and if important suffer an immediate critical Injury.

There is NO Crit Rating for the attack, period, only knocking them unconscious.

Let's have an example;

Force User (someone who is mildly ok at this, but not amazing)

Willpower 3, Discipline 3, Force Rating 2. They have Basic Move with 1 Strength, 1 Range and the Hurl Control upgrade.

Object being thrown A lowly Storm Trooper

Brawn 3, Willpower 3, Soak 5, Wound Threshold 5, Silhouette 1.

The target is a duracreet wall, our GM not wanting to bog things down ignores the stats for this, it's irrelevant to the outcome of the check. The Stormtrooper is standing at a door the PC needs to escape through, both at Short range from our hero. But there is some smoke in the room, from a nearby fire, so that will have an effect.

Assembling the Dice Pool:

FU Discipline is PPP

FU is Force Rating 2, so 2 Force Dice

The FU chooses to take their time lining up the Hurl, Aiming for a Boost.

Object is Silhouette 1, so an Easy check.

The smoke provides a single Setback.

Hurl Stormtrooper at a Wall : 3eP+1eB+2eF+1eD+1eS 3 successes, 1 Triumph, 2 Dark Side

The Force User succeeds, but has rolled 2 Darkside Points they have a couple of options:

1.

Flip a DP, suffer 2 Strain and Conflict, then activate Basic and Strength to cause 10+3-5=8 Damage to the trooper knocking it out (or killing). Then the PC has a Triumph to spend, perhaps the Trooper bumps the door controls as they are thrown, opening the escape route, or perhaps they are not killed, thus reducing any potential extra Conflict.

2.

Choose to not hit with the attack, but with still a triumph to spend there is some fun to be had. I liked the accidental door opening above, that could still happen. Or perhaps the trooper drops his gun as he backs away. Perhaps the lights go out as the fire takes hold, plunging the room into darkness and Upgrading the Troopers next check.

So there you have it, how does Move Push an enemy. Where things get complex is with Minions,!snd I'll happily admit that GM's need to make executive decisions there. A Minion Group is technically a single target, so you shouldn't need a Magnitude Upgrade to be able to affect them all, but 5 Minions is bigger than a Silhouette 1 Object.

Personally I increase their Silhouette by 1, so the 5 Stormtroopers become a Silhouette 2 object. In the above example the FU could not have thrown that group without an extra Force Point or previously having purchased another Strength Upgrade. Had they been able to then the minion group would suffer 23-5=18 damage, taking out 3 of them and injuring a 4th, I would also allow that Triumph to remove 1 more Minion if the Player so wished.

Throwing someone against a wall for them to slump to the floor unconscious, which is what was suggested, is absolutely a Combat check. Your using Move to cause damage.

You're not wrong, but there are no direct rules for it in the Move power as FFG has written it. What's the attack difficulty of throwing someone into a wall? What's the base damage? What's the crit rating? Can it activate control effects?

You're basically insisting that one of the most common things you see happen in the movies that's fully mechanically explained by one power is in fact a house rule of another power, just because you are hung up on the names of the powers.

Difficulty based on distance, if it is a rather large wall you get iirc boost dice based in the sil of the target, base damage is yet again the good old sil x 10 of the thrown object. No crit rating iirc. And you keep again ignoring the basic rules of the game. Range combat checks are clearly defined, shooting at a wall is not a foreign concept either.

Are you sure that you are rules lawyering properly? It feels more like fishing with a trawler …

There are no house rules required just raw. Now more interestingly is in this case if you need to spend two actions for this or if you do two checks for one action or you take the highest difficulty. That the rules in general are not very well edited and writing is something people complain since years about FFG in general. The most likely scenario is that your victim has the right to make an opposed check against getting picked up in that case, while you just make your range check. That should be in line with raw.