7 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

IF you want evidence of the Force having a Will, look no farther than thew Wellspring of Life and its Five "priestesses", which are manifestations of the Force itself, and of its Will.

This is why you fail.

Filoni says that they represent aspects of a single ancient Force-using being. They are not the will of the Force itself. What they say is not free of their own agenda. So again, where does the Force itself speak?

3 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

This is why you fail.

Filoni says that they represent aspects of a single ancient Force-using being. They are not the will of the Force itself. What they say is not free of their own agenda. So again, where does the Force itself speak?

To quote Nexus of Power page 87:

Quote

Strange individuals exist within the Wellspring. Their appearance may vary depending on whom they appear to, and they may not be individuals at all. Rather, they could simply be reflections of the Force. They seem to exist somewhere between the Living Force and the Cosmic Force, and perhaps they are the personification of that link. Or, perhaps they are the first Force users to achieve immortality, and now guide the few others they deem worthy.

Dave Filoni > Nexus of Power.

1 minute ago, StarkJunior said:

Dave Filoni > Nexus of Power.

Tramp's quote even gave the option that they were just the first beings to achieve immortality as Force ghosts, but he didn't bother to bold that part because it doesn't support his argument.

2 minutes ago, StarkJunior said:

Dave Filoni > Nexus of Power.

To quote their Star Wars.com databank page:

Quote

Dwelling on an unnamed planet in the heart of the galaxy, these five mysterious beings embodied the connection between the living Force present in lifeforms big and small, and the larger, timeless cosmic Force.

I don't see where it says they are the living embodiment of the Force.

Tramp, with your zeal, you'll do well in a world that embraces Alternate Facts.

5 minutes ago, StarkJunior said:

I don't see where it says they are the living embodiment of the Force.

It can also be that "embodied the connection" can also be taken literally as they were, at the time shown, force spirits. Of course, it does not say that they embody the "will of the Force" that Tramp keeps clinging to.

1 minute ago, HappyDaze said:

It can also be that "embodied the connection" can also be taken literally as they were, at the time shown, force spirits. Of course, it does not say that they embody the "will of the Force" that Tramp keeps.cling to.

The point is that they are manifestations of the Force itself, and therefore, its Will.

Then there is also Mortis. with the Father, Son, and Daughter, also incarnations of the Force itself:

Nexus of Power page 84:

Quote

These three beings are incarnations of the Force itself. The Son represents the unfettered dark side, the Daughter is the pure light side, and the Father is the mediator between his two children, his strength keeping either one from overwhelming the other. Each can take any form they choose, and likely are not creatures of flesh and blood.

38 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

The point is that they are manifestations of the Force itself, and therefore, its Will.

Then there is also Mortis. with the Father, Son, and Daughter, also incarnations of the Force itself:

Nexus of Power page 84:

They embodied aspects of their realm. Beyond that, they may have been powerless or unable to exist. Besides, they are dead. This would mean that, if they are the will of the force then it would be dead too.

23 hours ago, Dunefarble said:

And you never did address this. By your own words, Watto wasn't that bad. By your own words, Jedi should be held to a higher standard and never give in to the easy path over the right path. So wouldn't the right path have been to insist that the deal be legitimate (a non-loaded, non-Force affected roll), or even better - shouldn't Qui-Gonn have taken a stance against cheating and given Watto the chance to see his actions in a new light and mend his ways? Just fudging the roll seems an awful lot like the quick and easy path to me. Now, not a lot of conflict, especially given the situation, but definitely some.

Still waiting on this to be addressed.

2 minutes ago, Dunefarble said:

Still waiting on this to be addressed.

Yes, I have addressed this. Qui Gon had no authority, neither through the Order, nor the Republic to free the slaves. No matter what "moral" views he may have against it. So, no, No Conflict.

26 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Yes, I have addressed this. Qui Gon had no authority, neither through the Order, nor the Republic to free the slaves. No matter what "moral" views he may have against it. So, no, No Conflict.

I fail to see where I mentioned freeing slaves in that post. I'm not talking about freeing slaves at all there, I'm talking about Qui-Gonn stooping to Watto's level and cheating during their negotiations.

Well if I ever missed Erik's dogmatic, hard-headed, zealotry I don't now. Here I brought some for others...

22 minutes ago, mouthymerc said:

Well if I ever missed Erik's dogmatic, hard-headed, zealotry I don't now. Here I brought some for others...

I went back and read some of his posts the other day after someone dropped his name, just to see what I missed. Guy was fanatic about the Rebellion/Republic being 100% "The Good Guys" and boasted about how Disney would never ever show the Rebels doing anything sketchy or associated with anyone doing anything sketchy.

I really wish I could have seen his reaction to Rogue One.

5 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

The point is that they are manifestations of the Force itself, and therefore, its Will.

Then there is also Mortis. with the Father, Son, and Daughter, also incarnations of the Force itself:

Nexus of Power page 84:

What I'm getting here is that the Force has multiple personalities.

And therefore not a will, but rather several wills.

5 hours ago, StarkJunior said:

Dave Filoni > Nexus of Power.

Your equation is off!

Dave Filoni = Nexus of Power.

12 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Yes, and this game is also still based upon a lot of that "Legends" material. Not only that, but a lot of that material has been repeatedly been coming back in, and referenced in the "new" canon. This means that the few examples they give, regarding attachment, and how many Padawan's a Master was "allowed" to teach at any one time, were only part of the Code's laws. They are not the entirety of it.

-clipped-

Regarding Non-Canon Material

Just because a canonized work references part of a non-canon work, it does not legitimize the entirety of the non-canon work.

I love Legends and previous game editions (Saga Edition was my favorite d20 game until 5e came around). And it's huge for me when parts of them get re-canonized. I have a little celebration in my head when that happens, because I'm a geek. But at the same time, I have to recognize that, while those older works contribute to the Canon universe we have now (and in many ways, kept Star Wars alive !), they are not entirely decisive in their applicability for debates such as these. They can be made to contribute, but they are ultimately only useful as discussion fodder—they are not definitive in and of themselves.

Segue to the Jedi Code

So the Jedi Code is an example of a thing that we know of , but of which we don't have full knowledge. We get the sense that the Jedi Order adhered to it dogmatically, and that Qui-Gon didn't. We can also draw the conclusion that the Code was imperfect, because the Council, guided by the Code, led the entire Order into the Clone Wars as commanders and generals, contributing to the downfall of the Jedi, by way of both wartime casualties and moral degradation (e.g. Krell, Offee, Vebb). We can infer certain things about the Code, but we don't have it in its fullness to examine or discuss. We don't know all it forbade, nor do we know the full extent of its allowances or charges to members of the Order. That is simple fact. Most of what we know comes from vague allusions and assertions from characters in situational settings.

Regarding the Will of the Force

Discussion of whether the Force has a will is necessarily speculative. Even when we had the EU, the Living Force was simply a school of thought, and not something that could be proven to exist. And still now, within the new Canon, Qui-Gon is seen to be a bit of a radical, diverging from the Council at least in what he sees as the will of the Force (they obviously disagreed with his statements about what the Force was willing them to do), if not on a grander scale of philosophy regarding the nature of the Force.

Regardless, as I said before, only the author of the story can definitely speak to what the "will of the Force" actually is, if it indeed exists. Characters within the story are finite in their knowledge and fallible in their opinions—not to mention the occasional admission of wrongly-held convictions and contradiction in beliefs between persons. Therefore, in-character statements alone cannot logically be taken as absolute truth. Assertions and refutations based on such statements are nothing more than anecdotal speculation.

^ +10 points.

20 hours ago, Dunefarble said:

I fail to see where I mentioned freeing slaves in that post. I'm not talking about freeing slaves at all there, I'm talking about Qui-Gonn stooping to Watto's level and cheating during their negotiations.

What about it? He wasn't doing it for his own personal gain. He was doing what needed to be done for Anakin . Here's a little something about Honesty from PotJ (which also pretty well covers Obi Wan's "little white lie" to Luke in ANH. And when previously negotiating with Watto for the parts and using Influence, that too was necessary. They needed the parts in order to complete the mission ; not simply for his own sake, but for Padme's and for that of the entire populous of the planet Naboo.

Quote

Practice Honesty:

Honesty is the first responsibility of the Jedi. A Jedi can allow others to believe incorrectly, lead others to incorrect conclusions by playing on their suppositions, or stretch the truth if the situation demands it. A Jedi must always be honest with herself, her Master, and the Council. The Caamasi Jedi Knight, Surenit Kil'qiy spoke wisely when he said: "Let there be truth between your heart and the Force, All else is transitory," A Jedi who is honest with her beliefs and her motives finds responsibility to be almost second nature.

So the Jedi readily embrace lying to everyone that's not a Jedi. I'm sure they also use the "No True Jedi" fallacy when justifying lying to other Jedi too.

Good job, Tramp. You're doing a better job of throwing shade on the Jedi than Traviss ever did.

11 hours ago, awayputurwpn said:

Regarding Non-Canon Material

Just because a canonized work references part of a non-canon work, it does not legitimize the entirety of the non-canon work.

I love Legends and previous game editions (Saga Edition was my favorite d20 game until 5e came around). And it's huge for me when parts of them get re-canonized. I have a little celebration in my head when that happens, because I'm a geek. But at the same time, I have to recognize that, while those older works contribute to the Canon universe we have now (and in many ways, kept Star Wars alive !), they are not entirely decisive in their applicability for debates such as these. They can be made to contribute, but they are ultimately only useful as discussion fodder—they are not definitive in and of themselves.

Segue to the Jedi Code

So the Jedi Code is an example of a thing that we know of , but of which we don't have full knowledge. We get the sense that the Jedi Order adhered to it dogmatically, and that Qui-Gon didn't. We can also draw the conclusion that the Code was imperfect, because the Council, guided by the Code, led the entire Order into the Clone Wars as commanders and generals, contributing to the downfall of the Jedi, by way of both wartime casualties and moral degradation (e.g. Krell, Offee, Vebb). We can infer certain things about the Code, but we don't have it in its fullness to examine or discuss. We don't know all it forbade, nor do we know the full extent of its allowances or charges to members of the Order. That is simple fact. Most of what we know comes from vague allusions and assertions from characters in situational settings.

Regarding the Will of the Force

Discussion of whether the Force has a will is necessarily speculative. Even when we had the EU, the Living Force was simply a school of thought, and not something that could be proven to exist. And still now, within the new Canon, Qui-Gon is seen to be a bit of a radical, diverging from the Council at least in what he sees as the will of the Force (they obviously disagreed with his statements about what the Force was willing them to do), if not on a grander scale of philosophy regarding the nature of the Force.

Regardless, as I said before, only the author of the story can definitely speak to what the "will of the Force" actually is, if it indeed exists. Characters within the story are finite in their knowledge and fallible in their opinions—not to mention the occasional admission of wrongly-held convictions and contradiction in beliefs between persons. Therefore, in-character statements alone cannot logically be taken as absolute truth. Assertions and refutations based on such statements are nothing more than anecdotal speculation.

And yet we do get instances where the Force (and the Dark Side) actually whisper to a Jedi, guiding (or tempting) them, quite literally. A good example of this is in Tales of the Jedi. Yes, it is"old canon" but still, it's definitely relevant. When Nomi Sunrider is passing by Lake Nath on her way to Master Thon's hut on Ambria, she actually hears the Dark Side whispering to her, trying to convince her to turn back.

3 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

So the Jedi readily embrace lying to everyone that's not a Jedi. I'm sure they also use the "No True Jedi" fallacy when justifying lying to other Jedi too.

Good job, Tramp. You're doing a better job of throwing shade on the Jedi than Traviss ever did.

There's nothing to do. All of this is from what we see in canon. Jedi are not D&D Paladins . They're more akin to Samurai and Buddhist monks. They have a strong code of ethics, which they follow, and the Will of the Force, but they are under no obligation to correct someone's misconceptions, or tell them the "absolute truth" if such a truth would cause more harm than good.

9 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

And yet we do get instances where the Force (and the Dark Side) actually whisper to a Jedi, guiding (or tempting) them, quite literally. A good example of this is in Tales of the Jedi. Yes, it is"old canon" but still, it's definitely relevant. When Nomi Sunrider is passing by Lake Nath on her way to Master Thon's hut on Ambria, she actually hears the Dark Side whispering to her, trying to convince her to turn back.

The dark side whispers that she hears are her own fears and weaknesses. Again, it's metaphor.