1 hour ago, Dunefarble said:

2 hours ago, masterstrider said:

Therefore, the entire FORUM GAINS +5 Conflict for arguing with Tramp!

Dammit, I rolled a 6....

Perhaps that means the Force agreed with your taking of said bait. Or perhaps it agreed with the game mechanics? Or...perhaps you're more enlightened because you experienced conflict? Or maybe because you exhibit more Jedi-like qualities? Or because...

<fade to black>

19 hours ago, HappyDaze said:

You cannot prove that the Force wanted Anikan to be freed. It's quite possible that the Force wanted him to die on Tatooine so he couldn't help Palpatine do evil. In fact, it could be that Qui-Gon screwed everything up because he selfishly believed he had found the chosen one rather than a false blip that turned out to be a mass murdering psycho.

Of course, that assumes you buy the assumption that the Force has a will of its own, which I simply don't buy.

IT's not an Assumption. It's canon fact. A fact gone over several times in the movies, including by Qui Gon where he even makes a point of saying that (paraphrasing here) when you are calm and at peace you can actually "hear" the Force speaking its Will to you. He repeatedly talks about how it was the Will of the Force that Anakin was found. So, yes, the Force does have a Will, and when calm, and at peace, a Jedi can "hear" it. That is why they meditate and try to remain "dispassionate". That's what those lines from the Jedi Code are written to allow a Jedi to do. Granted, there is more to the Code than that, including several guidelines intended to help a Jedi navigate society, and their responsibilities.

Just now, Tramp Graphics said:

IT's not an Assumption. It's canon fact. A fact gone over several times in the movies, including by Qui Gon where he even makes a point of saying that (paraphrasing here) when you are calm and at peace you can actually "hear" the Force speaking its Will to you. He repeatedly talks about how it was the Will of the Force that Anakin was found. So, yes, the Force does have a Will, and when calm, and at peace, a Jedi can "hear" it. That is why they meditate and try to remain "dispassionate". That's what those lines from the Jedi Code are written to allow a Jedi to do. Granted, there is more to the Code than that, including several guidelines intended to help a Jedi navigate society, and their responsibilities.

What they hear is what they bring with them. They hear their own will. The idea is to clear out all of the crap that might be confusing and to have a clean mind when doing so.

Or else show me one canon line where the Force speaks. As in, quote the Force directly rather than what someone else says about it.

Also - a lot of those extra tenets you mention are now Legends and have yet to be reintroduced into canon. The Wookiepedia page for the Jedi Code that is Canon only has the following:

Amongst other dictates, the Jedi Code forbade Jedi Knights and Jedi Masters from taking on more than one Padawan at a given time; and forbade Jedi from forming attachments, such as marriage, and other specific, individual bonds, such as romantic love and family. Few understood that this practice of non-attachment did not mean the Jedi were strangers to compassion when, in fact, they believed that all lives were precious. (And probably don't deserve to be enslaved, either. "Lives are precious, except for these slaves.")

And then it just has the two versions of the Code - saying nothing about revisions or any of that, just that Younglings often site one version during the Initiate Trials.

4 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

What they hear is what they bring with them. They hear their own will. The idea is to clear out all of the crap that might be confusing and to have a clean mind when doing so.

Or else show me one canon line where the Force speaks. As in, quote the Force directly rather than what someone else says about it.

No. What they "hear" (not with their ears), is the Will of the Force. Even the F&D core book talks about the Force having a Will of its own. To quote page 275:

Quote

The Force also appears to have its own will. Many powerful Force users have long hinted at this phenomenon, especially after communing with the Force or experiencing events of mystical significance. They believe not only that the Force derives its energy from life, but that it also guides the actions of the living. Some have stated that it responds most strongly to actions taken by those who consciously seek to use it, and aids or opposes individuals according to its own remotre designs. Given these observations, those sensitive to the Force understand that it has an undeniable role in the destiny of the galaxy.

Obi Wan Kenobi also hints at this this fact up to Luke in AnH while training him in lightsaber combat. in this exchange:

Obi Wan: "A Jedi can feel the Force flowing through him."

Luke: "You mean it controls your actions?"

Obi Wan: Partially, but it also obeys your commands.

He later tells Luke to let the Force guide his shot to destroy the Death Star. To let go and let the Force do its will, so to speak.

5 minutes ago, StarkJunior said:

Also - a lot of those extra tenets you mention are now Legends and have yet to be reintroduced into canon. The Wookiepedia page for the Jedi Code that is Canon only has the following:

Amongst other dictates, the Jedi Code forbade Jedi Knights and Jedi Masters from taking on more than one Padawan at a given time; and forbade Jedi from forming attachments, such as marriage, and other specific, individual bonds, such as romantic love and family. Few understood that this practice of non-attachment did not mean the Jedi were strangers to compassion when, in fact, they believed that all lives were precious. (And probably don't deserve to be enslaved, either. "Lives are precious, except for these slaves.")

And then it just has the two versions of the Code - saying nothing about revisions or any of that, just that Younglings often site one version during the Initiate Trials.

Those are only the parts of the Code that were specifically dealt with in the movies. It's a lot bigger than that. And, in regards to "romance" Even George Lucas himself has stated that the Jedi were not Celibate. What they were not supposed to do was form attachments. Regardless, a Jedi could not simply go to a world, particularly one not under Republic control, and just start passing judgement about their culture, regardless of how it may offend his moral sensibility. So, whether you like the idea or not, Qui Gon had no auhtority, nor right, to interfere with the culture of Tatooine, and thus had no right to free Shmi nor any other Slave. The Force granted him the means to free Anakin. And he did so within the cultural norms of Tatooine. He did so legally, without passing any judgement without disrupting the natural order of that culture. That was not an option with Shmi. To do any more than he did would have been Conflict Worthy, as well as a serious breach of protocol, and the law of that world. Qui Gon did exactly what was in his power to do, no more, no less.

Guy, the ONLY parts that matter to canon are what we've seen in the movies, TCW, and Rebels, and all books since April 2014.

That's it.

No Stark.

Yes. Disney purged all things from canon except the movies, TCW, Rebels, and any books after April 2014. They made a big post about it - it's why the Expanded Universe is now called Legends.

Just now, StarkJunior said:

Yes. Disney purged all things from canon except the movies, TCW, Rebels, and any books after April 2014. They made a big post about it - it's why the Expanded Universe is now called Legends.

Yes, and this game is also still based upon a lot of that "Legends" material. Not only that, but a lot of that material has been repeatedly been coming back in, and referenced in the "new" canon. On top of that, even the "new canon establishes that the Code covers a lot more than what is explicitly revealed. And much of that is covered in movie source books as well, not just stories, and even newer source books published since. The Code is not only the little bit we get revealed to us in snippets from the movies, TCW, and Rebels, The Code, as a whole is much more comprehensive.

To quote your vaunted Wookieepiedia reference:

Quote

Amongst other dictates, the Jedi Code forbade Jedi Knights and Jedi Masters from taking on more than one Padawan at a given time;^[2]and forbade Jedi from forming attachments, such as marriage,^[3]and other specific, individual bonds, such as romantic love and family.^[4] Few understood that this practice of nonattachment did not mean the Jedi were strangers to compassion when, in fact, they believed that all lives were precious.^[4]

Emphasis mine. Note the key phrase there, "Amongst other dictates". This means that the few examples they give, regarding attachment, and how many Padawan's a Master was "allowed" to teach at any one time, were only part of the Code's laws. They are not the entirety of it.

Yes, but until they are specifically stated outright in one of the canon sources, nothing from Legends is canon - and all we can do is speculate. We cannot state definitely WHAT those tenets are because we don't know.

You can't be like "OH BUT THE CODE IS MORE THAN THAT" and then not have any way to prove what that more is, because we don't know what it is.

42 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

No. What they "hear" (not with their ears), is the Will of the Force. Even the F&D core book talks about the Force having a Will of its own. To quote page 275:

Obi Wan Kenobi also hints at this this fact up to Luke in AnH while training him in lightsaber combat. in this exchange:

Obi Wan: "A Jedi can feel the Force flowing through him."

Luke: "You mean it controls your actions?"

Obi Wan: Partially, but it also obeys your commands.

He later tells Luke to let the Force guide his shot to destroy the Death Star. To let go and let the Force do its will, so to speak.

It might "appear" to have a will of its own, but there is no proof of that. It doesnt act on its own, and it doesn't communicate on its own. Jedi and other Force users claim to be acting in accordance with its wishes when they want to justify their decisions. It's no different from real world religions in that.

11 minutes ago, StarkJunior said:

Yes, but until they are specifically stated outright in one of the canon sources, nothing from Legends is canon - and all we can do is speculate. We cannot state definitely WHAT those tenets are because we don't know.

You can't be like "OH BUT THE CODE IS MORE THAN THAT" and then not have any way to prove what that more is, because we don't know what it is.

Yes, we can. Because whetehr or not they're stated outright, we can see Jedi living by those tenets.

4 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

It might "appear" to have a will of its own, but there is no proof of that. It doesnt act on its own, and it doesn't communicate on its own. Jedi and other Force users claim to be acting in accordance with its wishes when they want to justify their decisions. It's no different from real world religions in that.

Yes, it does communicate. This is one of the key points Qui Gon made to Anakin in TPM. The Force does communicate its Will. Qui Gon was very clear about that. He specificaly tells Anakin that yes, the Force does communicate its Will to Force Sensitives, and if you clear your mind, you can "hear" it. So, yes, canonically, the Force does actually communicate its will to the Jedi.

The Force and Midiclorians

4 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Yes, we can. Because whetehr or not they're stated outright, we can see Jedi living by those tenets.

What tenets? What tenets are they living by? What were the exact words taught to them by their masters? Spell them out. Sourced.

Just now, Tramp Graphics said:

Yes, it does communicate. This is one of the key points Qui Gon made to Anakin in TPM. The Force does communicate its Will. Qui Gon was very clear about that. He specificaly tells Anakin that yes, the Force does communicate its Will to Force Sensitives, and if you clear your mind, you can "hear" it. So, yes, canonically, the Force does actually communicate its will to the Jedi.

Metaphor. The "will of the Force" is not a sapient will. It is (to a Jedi) what a clear-headed individual would do. To a Sith, the "will of the Force" is quite different. This is why I say it is what the individual brings forth, not something else.

Again, give me an example where the Force speaks for itself rather than someone else speaking for it to push their own agenda.

7 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

Metaphor. The "will of the Force" is not a sapient will. It is (to a Jedi) what a clear-headed individual would do. To a Sith, the "will of the Force" is quite different. This is why I say it is what the individual brings forth, not something else.

Again, give me an example where the Force speaks for itself rather than someone else speaking for it to push their own agenda.

No. It is not a metaphor. Qui Gon tells Anakin that when he clears his mind he will be actually able to hear them speaking to him telling him the Will of the Force. That is canon. Canon says the Force has a Will of its own. It guides a Jedi's actions, and destinies. Whether you personally agree with that or not is irrelevant It is canon.

1 minute ago, Tramp Graphics said:

No. It is not a metaphor. Qui Gon tells Anakin that when he clears his mind he will be actually able to hear them speaking to him telling him the Will of the Force. That is canon. Canon says the Force has a Will of its own. It guides a Jedi's actions, and destinies. Whether you personally agree with that or not is irrelevant It is canon.

Then why do the Sith not hear the exact same thing?

Just now, StarkJunior said:

Then why do the Sith not hear the exact same thing?

Because, they don't care to. They seek to bend the Force to their own will, not serve the Will of the Force. They don't listen to the Will of the Force. They impose their own wills upon it. They don't clear their minds of emotional distractions. They feed them. They draw power from their negative emotions, rather than finding peace and harmony with the Force. Therefore, they cannot hear the Force's Will, nor do they even try to do so.

1 minute ago, Tramp Graphics said:

No. It is not a metaphor. Qui Gon tells Anakin that when he clears his mind he will be actually able to hear them speaking to him telling him the Will of the Force. That is canon. Canon says the Force has a Will of its own. It guides a Jedi's actions, and destinies. Whether you personally agree with that or not is irrelevant It is canon.

Q-G says... So again not the Force speaking for itself, but rather someone with an agenda speaking for it (if it even exists). Show me an example of the Force speaking for itself.

It's as if someone claims to hear the will of the trees and that they speak for the trees...

Just now, Tramp Graphics said:

Because, they don't care to. They seek to bend the Force to their own will, not serve the Will of the Force. They don't listen to the Will of the Force. They impose their own wills upon it. They don't clear their minds of emotional distractions. They feed them. They draw power from their negative emotions, rather than finding peace and harmony with the Force. Therefore, they cannot hear the Force's Will, nor do they even try to do so.

You're such a cute little zealot. The Sith hear what they bring with them. So do the Jedi. So do all Force users, because the Force does not have a will of it's own.

2 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

You're such a cute little zealot. The Sith hear what they bring with them. So do the Jedi. So do all Force users, because the Force does not have a will of it's own.

Yes, it does. I don't care if you don't personally agree with that, but Canon says that the Force does have a will of its own.

Just now, Tramp Graphics said:

Yes, it does. I don't care if you don't personally agree with that, but Canon says that the Force does have a will of its own.

Maybe in your view. The one that takes the word of the Jedi as rigid law.

1 minute ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Yes, it does. I don't care if you don't personally agree with that, but Canon says that the Force does have a will of its own.

Because a character in the movie says so. Obi-Wan also says Vader murdered Luke's father and that 'many truths that you cling to differ from points of view' (paraphrased).

By Bens statement, that very well can be Qui-gons point of view and the truth is actually a bit different.

3 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

Maybe in your view. The one that takes the word of the Jedi as rigid law.

IF you want evidence of the Force having a Will, look no farther than thew Wellspring of Life and its Five "priestesses", which are manifestations of the Force itself, and of its Will.