6 minutes ago, StarkJunior said:

I am aware of that fact, but in the context of this discussion, we can't really talk about every single individual game or character - we have to discuss the 'default', which is budding, non-Jedi Force users. Korath is not the typical character for a Force and Destiny game.

Also, not going to address this? -

No. What we have been specifically discussing for the past few pages was how Jedi should behave, and the situation I was specifically put in as a hypothetical situation was how a Jedi would handle it.

And, yet, Morality is not built to emulate the Jedi Code, or even Jedi. It's built to represent personal ethos of individual characters who are decidedly not Jedi.

4 minutes ago, StarkJunior said:

And, yet, Morality is not built to emulate the Jedi Code, or even Jedi. It's built to represent personal ethos of individual characters who are decidedly not Jedi.

Technically, it was designed to cover all kinds of Force users including Jedi. Not only that, but the assumption of the game is that the PCs are aspiring to follow the Jedi path, they just need to figure out how.

3 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Technically, it was designed to cover all kinds of Force users including Jedi. Not only that, but the assumption of the game is that the PCs are aspiring to follow the Jedi path, they just need to figure out how.

Dude, it literally states personal ethos in the book, and it doesn't assume they want to be Jedi. All the "aspiring to follow the Jedi path" stuff is Motivations - Faith, specifically for the Jedi Code - and there are even ones that specifically say to be different from the Jedi.

Is it actually proven that the Force has a will of its own? If it does have its own will, then it can itself suffer Conflict...

7 minutes ago, StarkJunior said:

Dude, it literally states personal ethos in the book, and it doesn't assume they want to be Jedi. All the "aspiring to follow the Jedi path" stuff is Motivations - Faith, specifically for the Jedi Code - and there are even ones that specifically say to be different from the Jedi.

The book, and most of the F&D career books, also go into how the characters not only compare to the Jedi of old, but could aspire to follow in their path. In fact, several of the specs, specifically the lightsaber specs, are clearly designed with characters aspiring to be Jedi.

2 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

Is it actually proven that the Force has a will of its own? If it does have its own will, then it can itself suffer Conflict...

Yes, the Force does have Will of its own, and this has been firmly established in canon. No, the Force cannot suffer Conflict.

2 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

The book, and most of the F&D career books, also go into how the characters not only compare to the Jedi of old, but could aspire to follow in their path. In fact, several of the specs, specifically the lightsaber specs, are clearly designed with characters aspiring to be Jedi.

I am looking at the Guardian book right now and there's much more about how they could come from any walk of life and have nothing to do with the Jedi at all. Further, now it's could aspire - I thought it was the default assumption, huh? Make up your mind.

The Force has a will of its own, but it does what it's told by others (it doesn't act on its own), and it never suffers conflict? One of those three has to go.

Still haven't addressed this, Tramp - Yes, and they could have been wrong. They could be wrong about what the Force wants.

5 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

The Force has a will of its own, but it does what it's told by others (it doesn't act on its own), and it never suffers conflict? One of those three has to go.

Nope. Because by following the Will of the Force a Force user should not suffer Conflict. It's through selfishly bending the Force to your Will particuarly with evil intent, that Conflict is gained (among other reasons).

1 minute ago, StarkJunior said:

Still haven't addressed this, Tramp - Yes, and they could have been wrong. They could be wrong about what the Force wants.

Sure they could. I never said otherwise. They're not omniscient. That's not the point though. The point is that the Jedi strive to understand the Will of the Force. They strive to look beyond their own preconceptions and see things as they really are. It is never easy. But that is the ultimate goal. That is what they aspire to do in all things, and that is what the Jedi Code teaches them to do. How well they succeed at it is another matter and certainly depends upon the Jedi in question, and the situation they're in at any given moment.

2 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Nope. Because by following the Will of the Force a Force user should not suffer Conflict. It's through selfishly bending the Force to your Will particuarly with evil intent, that Conflict is gained (among other reasons).

Sure they could. I never said otherwise. They're not omniscient. That's not the point though. The point is that the Jedi strive to understand the Will of the Force. They strive to look beyond their own preconceptions and see things as they really are. It is never easy. But that is the ultimate goal. That is what they aspire to do in all things, and that is what the Jedi Code teaches them to do. How well they succeed at it is another matter and certainly depends upon the Jedi in question, and the situation they're in at any given moment.

Alright - the Force wants Qui-Gon to free the slaves, but he doesn't because he thinks that's not the will of the Force.

Boom, Conflict.

1 hour ago, Tramp Graphics said:

You're both still missing the point.

I'm not missing anything. Yours is but one point of view. Yours is no more correct than any others'.

11 minutes ago, StarkJunior said:

Alright - the Force wants Qui-Gon to free the slaves, but he doesn't because he thinks that's not the will of the Force.

Boom, Conflict.

Who is to say that the Force wants him to free all of the slaves? That's your personal assumption. That is you putting your own personal morals and ethics over others without fully grasping the ramifications that they could have. The Force certainly wanted him to free Anakin, because Anakin was the Chosen One destined to bring the Force back into Balance. If Qui Gon was meant to free Shmi, or any of the other slaves for that matter, the Force would have provided him means to do so. However, this was not the case, and for him to force the situation, would have been him forcing his own desires and ethics upon another culture. It would have been him passing judgement upon that culture in the name of the Republic. That is what would earn Conflict. Qui Gon had to respect the culture of Tatooine, even if it may or may not have offended his personal morals and ethics. Qui Gon certainly understood that, and that is why there is no Conflict involved. He did the right thing.

And, there it is. Who is to say the Force didn't want him to free all the slaves? Certainly not you, anymore than I am an arbiter of it. I'm simply stating that all those situations you said Qui-Gon wouldn't gain Conflict in, he could have - because he may have been wrong about what the will of the Force is.

You are twisting points and philosophy to support your arguments.

1 minute ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Who is to say that the Force wants him to free all of the slaves? That's your personal assumption. That is you putting your own personal morals and ethics over others without fully grasping the ramifications that they could have. The Force certainly wanted him to free Anakin, because Anakin was the Chosen One destined to bring the Force back into Balance. If Qui Gon was meant to free Shmi, or any of the other slaves for that matter, the Force would have provided him means to do so. However, this was not the case, and for him to force the situation, would have been him forcing his own desires and ethics upon another culture. It would have been him passing judgement upon that culture in the name of the Republic. That is what would earn Conflict. Qui Gon had to respect the culture of Tatooine, even if it may or may not have offended his personal morals and ethics. Qui Gon certainly understood that, and that is why there is no Conflict involved. He did the right thing.

Maybe the Force wanted the status quo on Tatooine to change because the greed and corruption of the Hutts was corrupting the flow of the Force? Surely you're not suggesting that the Force is subject to law? Maybe putting Qui-Gonn on Tatooine and showing him Shmi's circumstances was it's way of saying 'here, fix this'.

7 minutes ago, StarkJunior said:

And, there it is. Who is to say the Force didn't want him to free all the slaves? Certainly not you, anymore than I am an arbiter of it. I'm simply stating that all those situations you said Qui-Gon wouldn't gain Conflict in, he could have - because he may have been wrong about what the will of the Force is.

You are twisting points and philosophy to support your arguments.

5 minutes ago, Dunefarble said:

Maybe the Force wanted the status quo on Tatooine to change because the greed and corruption of the Hutts was corrupting the flow of the Force? Surely you're not suggesting that the Force is subject to law? Maybe putting Qui-Gonn on Tatooine and showing him Shmi's circumstances was it's way of saying 'here, fix this'.

Nope. Because, once again, if that had been the case, the Force would have provided a way for him to do so.

So, what, the Jedi just get their hands-held for the whole lives? Seriously, man? Come on.

Nothing worth doing is ever easy.

Just now, Tramp Graphics said:

Nope. Because, once again, if that had been the case, the Force would have provided a way for him to do so.

Did it not provide him with training? With resources and intelligence?

And what about the Jedi? If their understanding of the Force was so perfect (Qui-Gonn didn't act, because the rules of the Jedi forbade him) then why didn't the Force provide them the means to defeat Palpatine before he destroyed their Order? Why didn't it provide them with the means to protect the Republic? You said that the only way for Yoda to defeat Palpatine was through violence, why didn't the Force provide him with more violence in order to win the fight? Your logic here is a perfect circle.

I'm right because I am a Jedi, I'm a Jedi because I'm right? Not... really how it works.

On 2/16/2017 at 3:40 PM, Dunefarble said:

Again, at what point does the statue of limitations kick in? When did the Jedi, as an Order, go 'eh... enough is enough, we'll call And even something small like the chance cube. Watto was cheating, fine. But Qui-Gonn made the decision to cheat in response. He could have said, 'no, we use a different cube' or tried to renegotiate the deal or done any number of alternative actions. But he didn't. He cheated, and took the quick, easy way. Hmmm. Perhaps the TRUE will of the Force was for him to lose. Perhaps that's why Watto had a loaded die. Perhaps Anakin needed some time to mature and learn to control his emotions. Perhaps Watto needed more time to realize that Anakin and Shmi deserved to go free. You can't possibly know the answers to those questions.

And you never did address this. By your own words, Watto wasn't that bad. By your own words, Jedi should be held to a higher standard and never give in to the easy path over the right path. So wouldn't the right path have been to insist that the deal be legitimate (a non-loaded, non-Force affected roll), or even better - shouldn't Qui-Gonn have taken a stance against cheating and given Watto the chance to see his actions in a new light and mend his ways? Just fudging the roll seems an awful lot like the quick and easy path to me. Now, not a lot of conflict, especially given the situation, but definitely some.

1 hour ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Who is to say that the Force wants him to free all of the slaves? That's your personal assumption. That is you putting your own personal morals and ethics over others without fully grasping the ramifications that they could have. The Force certainly wanted him to free Anakin, because Anakin was the Chosen One destined to bring the Force back into Balance. If Qui Gon was meant to free Shmi, or any of the other slaves for that matter, the Force would have provided him means to do so. However, this was not the case, and for him to force the situation, would have been him forcing his own desires and ethics upon another culture. It would have been him passing judgement upon that culture in the name of the Republic. That is what would earn Conflict. Qui Gon had to respect the culture of Tatooine, even if it may or may not have offended his personal morals and ethics. Qui Gon certainly understood that, and that is why there is no Conflict involved. He did the right thing.

You cannot prove that the Force wanted Anikan to be freed. It's quite possible that the Force wanted him to die on Tatooine so he couldn't help Palpatine do evil. In fact, it could be that Qui-Gon screwed everything up because he selfishly believed he had found the chosen one rather than a false blip that turned out to be a mass murdering psycho.

Of course, that assumes you buy the assumption that the Force has a will of its own, which I simply don't buy.

The rules clearly define Conflict as connected to the Dark Side.

"A PC's struggles with being good versus the temptation and power of the dark side manifests as Conflict points in the Morality system" (pg 322)

PCs gain Conflict for committing immoral acts. And there is a clear rule set (and table) defining the moral code of the Force in the game. The Force decides what's right and wrong (and therefor what gains Conflict and that which doesn't). Which the GM can modulate based on circumstances, character role-play etc. Character intent should also be considered as some actions "may be considered good in one situation and evil in another".

PCs also gain Conflict for generating Force Points from Dark Side pips in a Force die pool - the rules don't cover how to interpret the Conflict gained this way. Like interpreting pools generally, narrative aspects are left up to the players. Gaining Conflict in this way could mean the character drawing directly on the "power of the dark side" or using dark emotions to increase their ability in the Force. Some have suggested that Conflict gained this way can also be mental/spiritual stress and strain. I think that strays a bit from the intent of Conflict but it's a perfectly legitimate and valid interpretation. That's one of the great things about the narrative dice mechanic - each group and player can create the story out of it they want. You don't need someone elses' permission.

But the Dark Side in Star Wars covers a broad range of things. Everything from slaying an entire village of Tusken Raiders (and the women and the children!) to feeling fear, anger or hatred. Gaining some Conflict really isn't that big of a deal - the mechanic is meant to model the internal struggle a PC has with the light side and the dark side. This makes the story and characters more interesting and gives mechanical choices narrative consequences. It's about creating story and character moments.

Take the example of Ezra from Rebels (spoilers ahead):

Under the influence of Maul he used his dark side emotions to gain access to the Sith temple/battle-station. He moved a little closer to the dark side. He moved even closer to the dark side when he started training with the Sith Holocron and doing evil things with it. And in classic Star Wars fashion he did it all for a "good cause". He didn't immediately fall to the dark side or become evil. He was tempted and gave in to it. it makes for an interesting character development.

Even if you're playing a light side paragon they still struggle with the dark side and the temptation of the dark side. Gaining several Conflict a session just means the character is not perfect (no being is). And if you want to go with canon - Yoda in Rebels Season 2 says he think the whole Jedi Order fell under the sway of the dark side - giving into fear and anger by entering into the Clone Wars. It can be a subtle seduction. Gaining Conflict is inevitable in a sense.

And the rules don't try to settle disputes about the nature of the Force. Some things are better left a mystery or for each table to work out.

Tramp trolling the entire forum: +100pts

The entire forum taking the bait: -1000pts.

There is no way anyone is going to win this debate because [unfortunately] Tramp has a very muddy view of the situation; he blends game mechanics with movie character motivations, and movie logic with inconsistent philosophies dreamed up by an illogical George Lucas.

Tramp your argument is poor because you do not have a hierarchy of logic in your reasoning. You cannot cite character motivations, FFG game mechanics, the [intangible] will of the Force, movie logic and the nature of the Light and Dark side of the force with EQUAL footing in your arguments because each has a different measure of Conflict. That is why Conflict is a RELATIVE measure. Conflict to the Will of the Force maybe not be the same as to the characters or the galaxy. That is why the movies, books and extended universe stuff guides and influences the FFG game mechanics and offers players/GMs a way to decide on THEIR relative viewpoint of Conflict in THEIR game. It is purely a story mechanic used to drive drama, dude. Nothing more. There is no ABSOLUTE measure of conflict, which is what you are - in a roundabout way - trying to convince the forum.

Only misery will remain if you stay on the current path.

Therefore, the entire FORUM GAINS +5 Conflict for arguing with Tramp! LOL

14 minutes ago, masterstrider said:

Therefore, the entire FORUM GAINS +5 Conflict for arguing with Tramp!

Dammit, I rolled a 6....

12 minutes ago, Dunefarble said:

Dammit, I rolled a 6....

What, you want a high Morality or something? Me? I'm not Force sensitive so I don't give two ***** about Conflict.

1 minute ago, HappyDaze said:

What, you want a high Morality or something? Me? I'm not Force sensitive so I don't give two ***** about Conflict.

Hah, no way. I have enough Bogan, I don't need more. At work, they're gonna start asking me why my eyes are yellow.