8 minutes ago, Decorus said:

Well umm In our defense you can only smash your head into a brick wall so many times before you have to revert to your lesser instincts

You know you can just choose not to engage instead of insulting someone over something as intensely trivial as this.

7 hours ago, Stan Fresh said:

Yes, let's be assholes to some guy over a game. Doing great work there.

/start sarcasm Not to be contrary, because I do support your underlying sentiment, but I believe that "being an asshole to guys online" is the technical reason the internet exists. You've seen the interwebs, yeah?

/end sarcasm

Everyone knows the internet is for prons.

3 minutes ago, Decorus said:

Everyone knows the internet is for prons.

True, my bad, lol. Although the asshole thing is a pretty close second, and the one people aren't quite as embarrassed to admit to their significant other and close friends and family.

On 2/3/2017 at 4:32 PM, HappyDaze said:

How do you know she suffered no Wounds? If she had suffered 10 Wounds but was still under her WT, how could you tell by RAW (since only RAW seems to matter to you)? The effects of having Wounds is--by RAW--nothing. Don't talk about being reasonable now, just stick with your rigid view of the RAW.

Because if her being "knocked out" had been because of her suffering ten wounds from being hurled into the tree, that would have meant that her wound threshold had been exceeded and she'd been incapacitated , which would have meant Kylo would have won, Finn would be dead, and Rey either dead or in Snoke's grasp. That's why. Wounds do not recover within one minute, not even with medical attention. That's why, and Hurl doesn't stagger or cause strain. It only causes wounds.

On 2/3/2017 at 4:34 PM, HappyDaze said:

Sure. Never on screen, because "drugs are bad" but then we never see anyone urinate on the screen in SW either yet we accept that it happens.

Whether "drugs are bad" is irrelevant in this instance. We know she didnt have a stimpack applied, (or any other treatment) because there was no time, and everything was shown on screen what happened after she was pushed back. Finn only had time to do a brief check to see if she was OK, and then fought Kylo, which ended up with him being incapacitated by his wound threshold being exceeded, being incapacitated, and suffering a critical hit as a result. Rey was only knocked out (staggered), and came around on her own within a minute. If it had been from wounds, she would have been completely incapacitated, and the fight would have been over, as I said above. It wasn't. It was a Staggered result on the Crit table, as a result of Kylo using Bind's Movement upgrade combined with the Mastery upgrade to inflict a low-level crit (becasue he used DSPs to generate FPs) resulting in a Staggered result, stunning her for one minute.

On 2/3/2017 at 5:32 PM, Daeglan said:

Also I see nothing about the movement upgrade to the bind power that comes across as you can use it by itself. It reads as an additional option to me. Not an instead of option.

As Awayputyourweapon said, Yes, it is an alternate use of the power. It's a Control upgrade. read the description on the rules regarding Control upgrades on page 283:

Quote

Control: Control upgrades add new effects to Force powers or modify existing effects, (adding to or changing the way the Force-sensitive character spends Force Points.)

The Bind movement upgrade changes the way the power works so that instead of immobilizing the target, you push him away or pull him to you.

17 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Because if her being "knocked out" had been because of her suffering ten wounds from being hurled into the tree, that would have meant that her wound threshold had been exceeded and she'd been incapacitated , which would have meant Kylo would have won, Finn would be dead, and Rey either dead or in Snoke's grasp. That's why. Wounds do not recover within one minute, not even with medical attention. That's why, and Hurl doesn't stagger or cause strain. It only causes wounds.

Whether "drugs are bad" is irrelevant in this instance. We know she didnt have a stimpack applied, (or any other treatment) because there was no time, and everything was shown on screen what happened after she was pushed back. Finn only had time to do a brief check to see if she was OK, and then fought Kylo, which ended up with him being incapacitated by his wound threshold being exceeded, being incapacitated, and suffering a critical hit as a result. Rey was only knocked out (staggered), and came around on her own within a minute. If it had been from wounds, she would have been completely incapacitated, and the fight would have been over, as I said above. It wasn't. It was a Staggered result on the Crit table, as a result of Kylo using Bind's Movement upgrade combined with the Mastery upgrade to inflict a low-level crit (becasue he used DSPs to generate FPs) resulting in a Staggered result, stunning her for one minute.

As Awayputyourweapon said, Yes, it is an alternate use of the power. It's a Control upgrade. read the description on the rules regarding Control upgrades on page 283:

The Bind movement upgrade changes the way the power works so that instead of immobilizing the target, you push him away or pull him to you.

1. we do not have her character so no we do not know if her wound threshold would be exceeded.
2. we do not know what her soak is...
3. we do not know what Kylo rolled.
4. this is a narrative system.
5. Kylo could have rolled enough advantage to use disorient.
6. We do not know what she was carrying. you keep making a lot of assumptions not really backed up.

the fact is it could be bind. but it also could be move. And if you were to ask Sam he would tell you it could be both. Which is what we have been saying the whole time.

24 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

1. we do not have her character so no we do not know if her wound threshold would be exceeded.
2. we do not know what her soak is...
3. we do not know what Kylo rolled.
4. this is a narrative system.
5. Kylo could have rolled enough advantage to use disorient.
6. We do not know what she was carrying. you keep making a lot of assumptions not really backed up.

the fact is it could be bind. but it also could be move. And if you were to ask Sam he would tell you it could be both. Which is what we have been saying the whole time.

If her wound threshold had been exceeded, she would have been completely incapacitated . The fight would have been over once Finn went down. She wouldn't have been able to just get up a minute later, much less with no lasting effects. To quote page 222:

Quote

When a PC suffers wounds greater than his wound threshold, he is knocked out and incapacitated until his wounds are reduced so that they no longer exceed his wound threshold (likely through healing). He also immediately suffers one critical injury. In some rare and dire circumstances, this could result in death.

Thus, if Rey's wound threshold had been exceeded, she would have been completely incapacitated, unable to recover, and the fight would have been lost once Finn was taken down . She would not have been conscious within the minute or so Kylo fought Finn, to intercept the lightsaber and defeat Kylo. And as stated previously, it takes a full day to recover one Wound, or two hours if suspended in Bacta. You cannot heal even one wound in a single minute.

Secondly, The Move Hurl upgrade does not inflict a Disoriented state. It only inflicts wound damage. However, the Bind Mastery upgrade can inflict a Crit (if DSPs were used) which potentially can stagger (if the roll is low enough), or simply inflict a Staggered effect (if only LSPs were used), which only lasts until the end of her next turn , all without inflicting any wound damage. A Disoriented roll on the Crit table would last until the end of the encounter, once again resulting in complete defeat for Rey and Finn. So no, the only option is a Staggered result on the Crit chart with no wounds done, and that is only possible if Kylo was using Bind using the movement upgrade combined with the mastery upgrade to inflict a Crit with the Staggered result. Combined with the fact that Kylo has a propensity for using Bind and Sense throughout the movie, It is clear that he is using Bind's movement upgrade, not Move's hurl upgrade for Force Push and Force Pull effects.

So, just going to ignore my point about talents that allow you to heal wounds basically instantly @Tramp Graphics ?

Cool.

Just now, StarkJunior said:

So, just going to ignore my point about talents that allow you to heal wounds basically instantly @Tramp Graphics ?

Cool.

Talents which Rey, as a starting character, is not likely to have had. And I don't know of any such talents that do so. So if they do exist, please list them.

1. We don't have her nor Kylo Ren's character sheet, as Daeglan said.

2. Such talent examples are Hard-Boiled, Surgeon, and Healing Trance. These either augment Medicine rolls for healing wounds (which can be done during an encounter, by the way) or allow you to recover wounds via some other means. Also, the Heal/Harm Force power. It's possible she could have had some - as at least one is top row. But, again, no way to know because we don't have her sheet.

3. It's a narrative system.

I've never seen a starting character that could pull off all of the things that Rey did in TFA.

Just now, HappyDaze said:

I've never seen a starting character that could pull off all of the things that Rey did in TFA.

Also, this. ^

8 minutes ago, StarkJunior said:

1. We don't have her nor Kylo Ren's character sheet, as Daeglan said.

2. Such talent examples are Hard-Boiled, Surgeon, and Healing Trance. These either augment Medicine rolls for healing wounds (which can be done during an encounter, by the way) or allow you to recover wounds via some other means. Also, the Heal/Harm Force power. It's possible she could have had some - as at least one is top row. But, again, no way to know because we don't have her sheet.

3. It's a narrative system.

None of which Rey would have had access to. Healing Trance is only available through the Healer spec, and Hard Boiled and Surgeon aren't even available for F&D characters, (which Rey most certainly would be). Rey is most likely a Warrior: Starfighter Ace . with Skilled Jockey and Solid Repairs . She's a skilled mechanic and pilot, not a healer. She is a starting character at the beginning of the film. and, only gains a few Force powers as the film progresses, specifically Influence , and Move , with maybe one or two upgrades. These are the only powers she demonstrates in the movie to date. And, not only that, but even is she had figured out Heal , she would have had to have been conscious to use it to reduce her wound level to below her threshold anyway, so that's not an option either. THus, her being knocked out because of exceeding her wound threshold is not an option, and thus the Move hurl upgrade canot have been what Kylo used. It had to have been the Bind movement upgrade combined with its Mastery upgrade causing a Staggered result on the crit chart, which only lasts until the end of her following turn.

What? You can take any specialization you want. You just can't take Signature Abilities from other Careers. Also, Surgeon is in Healer, which is a F&D Spec. Not that it matters, since again, you can take a specialization from any career.

I think Rey, Finn are both knight level characters. Finn despite having relatively little combat experience has had it drilled into him since a child to the extent that he is extremely capable with a blaster. Rey meanwhile can't even remember her own past clearly yet has a clear understanding of fantastical powers and discovers, or rather rediscovers more of herself with every encounter with Kylo Ren. She also clearly has some formal combat experience with a lightsaber, since she is fairly marially inclined and eventually rediscovers her true skills by immersing herself in the force. In fantasy stories that kinda of "repressed power" is played up a fair bit of the time, and even in Lord of the Rings the average named character is able to fend off 30+ Orcs without being seriously wounded.


I definitely think that she was Staggered by Kylo's original attack and that Finn, clearly not speced out to be a lightsaber combatant is beaten quite handily before she recovers her composure. She might even have application of force heal hidden within the thick bundle of her character sheet that she was using as an action on herself while staying down; the player waited for Finn to do as much damage as he could before she made a dramatic reappearance. It would have made sense for her to try and heal up to full health with Force Heal first, especially if both characters were getting close to exceeding their WT's to begin with.

5 minutes ago, StarkJunior said:

What? You can take any specialization you want. You just can't take Signature Abilities from other Careers. Also, Surgeon is in Healer, which is a F&D Spec. Not that it matters, since again, you can take a specialization from any career.

Yes, but for your Starting Spec , you have to take a Career Spec , and Rey was still a Starting character . While she certainly did earn XP during the "adventure" pretty much all of that went into her spec and into Force Powers. And her current Spec does not include any of those talents. I can say this because all she does throughout the movie is fight, pilot/co-pilot the Millennium Falcon , and repair machinery, and develop two Force Powers with some of their upgrades.

Just now, LordBritish said:

I think Rey, Finn are both knight level characters. Finn despite having relatively little combat experience has had it drilled into him since a child to the extent that he is extremely capable with a blaster. Rey meanwhile can't even remember her own past clearly yet has a clear understanding of fantastical powers and discovers, or rather rediscovers more of herself with every encounter with Kylo Ren. She also clearly has some formal combat experience with a lightsaber, since she is fairly marially inclined and eventually rediscovers her true skills by immersing herself in the force. In fantasy stories that kinda of "repressed power" is played up a fair bit of the time, and even in Lord of the Rings the average named character is able to fend off 30+ Orcs without being seriously wounded.


I definitely think that she was Staggered by Kylo's original attack and that Finn, clearly not speced out to be a lightsaber combatant is beaten quite handily before she recovers her composure. She might even have application of force heal hidden within the thick bundle of her character sheet that she was using as an action on herself while staying down; the player waited for Finn to do as much damage as he could before she made a dramatic reappearance.

I disagree. I don't think either Rey or Finn were anything but Starting characters at the beginning of the film. Rey had spent all of her time as a scavenger, not adventuring, and Finn was basically fresh out of the Stormtrooper academy, also with no actual experience. So, no, they were definitely the very epitome of Starting characters.

2 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Yes, but for your Starting Spec , you have to take a Career Spec , and Rey was still a Starting character . While she certainly did earn XP during the "adventure" pretty much all of that went into her spec and into Force Powers. And her current Spec does not include any of those talents. I can say this because all she does throughout the movie is fight, pilot/co-pilot the Millennium Falcon , and repair machinery, and develop two Force Powers with some of their upgrades.

Yeah, I have and know characters who have two Specializations at creation. Also, she had experiences on Jakku. Years of it. Finn still had training.

Neither of them are starting characters.

7 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

I disagree. I don't think either Rey or Finn were anything but Starting characters at the beginning of the film. Rey had spent all of her time as a scavenger, not adventuring, and Finn was basically fresh out of the Stormtrooper academy, also with no actual experience. So, no, they were definitely the very epitome of Starting characters.

In your opinion. Just because it was their first adventure together doesn't mean that the GM literally has to make them starting characters anyway. Otherwise the suggestion of 1000exp+ Jedi Knights would not make sense in the context of this system because they don't really go out adventuring that frequently.

You might brush off their experience, but both character's aren't exactly navie farmers. Both have had to deal with their own adversity up to this point that could quite easily warrent Knight level Exp. For Finn it's the rigerous training program of the first order, for Rey it's scavanging on a planet of slavers while constantly trying to avoid hazards of the planet.

Again, these characters are green but not necessarily inexperienced; Rey particilarly is allured to know more then she should actually know, just the movie does a shaky job of it because it's presented like a sonic screwdriver. "Problem? Rey will solve it if she frowns hard enough!" XD

Either way, I can see reasonable arguments being made for both sides. Just it would be a damn sight more interesting to start with some exp to reflect character development reflected in their background. I don't think her wound theshold was exceed in that scene though; just being staggered is enough to give that desired effect. Just as said, her character chose to stay down to try and recover enough energy via "gathering second winds" to take him on again.

Just now, StarkJunior said:

Yeah, I have and know characters who have two Specializations at creation.

That may be, but once again, Rey does not show any of the "characteristics" of having any other Spec than Starfighter Ace from the Warrior career during the course of the movie. She certainly does not have Healer , nor whatever other specs that would have Hard Boiled or Surgeon. She's not a medic , and never performs any medical skills throughout the movie. All she does isfight, fix machinery, and pilot/co-pilot the Falcon . That and develope a couple of Force Powers and upgrades to them. That's it. That pretty much eliminates any chance she would have Healing Trance or Surgeon, the same with Hard Boiled . It just does not work.

Are you this rigid with everything in the game?

1 minute ago, LordBritish said:

In your opinion. Just because it was their first adventure together doesn't mean that the GM literally has to make them starting characters anyway. Otherwise the suggestion of 1000exp+ Jedi Knights would not make sense in the context of this system because they don't really go out adventuring that frequently.

You might brush off their experience, but both character's aren't exactly navie farmers. Both have had to deal with their own adversity up to this point that could quite easily warrent Knight level Exp. For Finn it's the rigerous training program of the first order, for Rey it's scavanging on a planet of slavers while constantly trying to avoid hazards of the planet.

Again, these characters are green but not necessarily inexperienced; Rey particilarly is allured to know more then she should actually know, just the movie does a shaky job of it because it's presented like a sonic screwdriver. "Problem? Rey will solve it if she frowns hard enough!" XD

Either way, I can see reasonable arguments being made for both sides. Just it would be a damn sight more interesting to start with some exp to reflect character development reflected in their background.

Actually, the movies make it pretty clear that yes, both are basically "wet behind the ears" rookies, not "knight level" characters. No, they're not "farmboys", but they are pretty much equivalent to one in terms of experience. And both were pretty naive. So, no, I would have to say without a doubt that they were starting characters. Poe , was not, however. He definitely did have practical experience under his belt.

Poe does like two or three important things in the film. Finn and Rey take down the guy who was trained by Luke Skywalker and lead those who wiped out the returning Jedi Order. How does that even compute?

13 minutes ago, StarkJunior said:

Poe does like two or three important things in the film. Finn and Rey take down the guy who was trained by Luke Skywalker and lead those who wiped out the returning Jedi Order. How does that even compute?

Because Poe is explicitley established within the movie as being the Resistance's best pilot, and to actually have been fighting for the resistance for a number of years. He's not a rookie fresh from the academy. Both Finn and Rey are fresh rookies with no experience. Finn was fresh from the Stormtrooper academy, and Rey was just a scavenger, eaking out a meager living on a backwater world, not much different than how Luke grew up. This is firmly established in the movie and in their backstories. Rey was simply exceptionally gifted with the Force, and in her fight with Kylo Ren, probably burned a few Destiny Points over the course of a few rounds to beat him. Thus, it is canon that establishes Finn and Rey as rookies , and thus Starting characters.

So now you're the arbiter of canon based on character mechanics in an RPG?

Okay, then.