3 hours ago, awayputurwpn said:

No physical injuries?? She got *knocked out.* That pretty much requires some form of physical injury. Being slammed into a tree can do that.

According to Trump logic getting knocked out is merely staggered.

52 minutes ago, Decorus said:

According to Trump logic getting knocked out is merely staggered.

Do you mean Tramp or are you trying to put real world politics into this discussion of a role-playing game?

9 hours ago, Daeglan said:

I find it odd the person who has never played the game is trying to tell the people who have been playing the game since the edge beta how to play the game....I have played in games with Sam Stewart. I have had several conversations with him. And the one thing i have noticed is that he is never rigid with things. He tends to respond in conversations with things like that is one way to do that. He seems to consider multiple ways of doing things to be the norm.

Seems that was Jay Little's approach as well, both in designing and running the game, that there's not really any one dyed-in-the-wool true-blue way to do things. That doesn't quite mean the game is "anything goes" but the GM and player do have a degree of wiggle-room in how things are done, and while certain answers might make more sense than others, that doesn't mean those are the only answers.

5 hours ago, GroggyGolem said:

Do you mean Tramp or are you trying to put real world politics into this discussion of a role-playing game?

Methodology of the two individuals in dealing with detractors and opposing opinions is pretty similar, so one could see where the confusion could arise.

But most likely, it's probably just auto-correct being its usual wonderful self

18 hours ago, awayputurwpn said:

Then the only recourse left to us is that the Bind upgrade is meant to be used in tandem with the base power.

Otherwise you're arguing anachronistically and irrationally that there was something a power did, and the devs thought it worked fine, but then they made another power that did the same thing, so now for some reason the original power can't do that thing.

No, based upon the RAW, the Bind movement upgrade can be used independently of the base power. It is a Control upgrade, which the rules specifically say can be used to either add to the base power's normal use by modifying the base effect, or replace the base power's normal use by adding a completely new effect. This was brought to my attention several pages back in this very thread. to quote:

Quote

Control upgrades add new effects to Force powers, or modify existing effects (adding or changing the the way the Force Sensitive spends Force Points.

The Bund movement upgrade changes the way Bind works by adding a competely different way to spend the FPs on the power. Thus, instead of immobilizing the target, you push him away or pull him to you. Move, on the other hand really only works through the Hurl upgrae, which only covers an offensive ranged attack to hurl someon or something into someone else for damage.

17 hours ago, awayputurwpn said:

No physical injuries?? She got *knocked out.* That pretty much requires some form of physical injury. Being slammed into a tree can do that.

Yes, she was staggered . However, once those effects were over, she was completely unhurt. She had no physical injuries . No bruises, no broken bones, no concussion, nothing was physically wrong with her . She simply had the wind knocked out of her and temporarily blacked out for a minute. That was all. That does not equate to wound damage. That is covered by Staggered . And, that effect, given that Kylo was using PSPs would be a result of a 21 to 25 (+10 from the Bind Mastery Upgrade, making 31 to 35) on the Critical Injury table on page 225, the result being " Stunned : the target is staggered until the end of his next turn. " That is what happened to Rey. She did not suffer any wound damage, she was simply staggered. Read the rules on staggered.

Quote

The staggered character cannot perform actions (including downgrading actions to maneuvers). Most effects that stagger a character last for a set duration.

16 hours ago, Daeglan said:

I find it odd the person who has never played the game is trying to tell the people who have been playing the game since the edge beta how to play the game....I have played in games with Sam Stewart. I have had several conversations with him. And the one thing i have noticed is that he is never rigid with things. He tends to respond in conversations with things like that is one way to do that. He seems to consider multiple ways of doing things to be the norm.

And yet you guys are the ones who have stated that the only way to use Force Push or Force Pull in any form is through Move . And, some of you have stated that the only effect Force Push and Force Pull is used for is to inflict wound damage by knocking people into one another. On the other hand, I have maintained consistently that whether you use Move or Bind's movement upgrade for Force Push or Force Pull is determined by the intent of what you're trying to accomplish, and that it does not necessarily involve using someone as a projectile, slamming people into one another, in order to cause wound damage. Thus, Move and Bind are both used for these powers but for two different ends . Move , with its hurl upgrade is best used if you want to throw people into other people with a ranged attack to inflict serious injury (or death) upon all involved, while Bind's movement upgrade is used when you simply want to push them away or pull them forward , without necessarily hurting them . Though, if you want to get really nasty, you can also combine it with its Mastery upgrade to either stagger your target, or inflict a critical injury (which could still result in a staggered effect, but has other lasting effects). That's one thing Move's hurl upgrade doesn't cover: staggering your target, which is what Kylo did to Rey. So, if you want to talk "inflexibility", look who's calling the kettle black . Without the hurl upgrade, Move's base power is too slow to use as Force Push or Force Pull . And that is where Bind's movement upgrade comes in. Move is not the only option for Force Push and Force Pull . It is only one of two options, and really only for one potential intent out of two.

Tramp,

Wound damage is also superficial and wears off without leaving any trace of harm. Significant harm in this system is reflected in critical injuries, not on the Wounds Threshold.

12 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

Tramp,

Wound damage is also superficial and wears off without leaving any trace of harm. Significant harm in this system is reflected in critical injuries, not on the Wounds Threshold.

No. It isn't, and it takes a long time to heal. It's not instantaneous . Rey was completely unharmed after she woke up within a minute of hitting that tree. 10 wounds don't heal that quickly. According to page 226 of F&D, it takes a full day to heal one wound of damage from natural rest. Even in a bacta tank, it takes two full hours to heal one wound. You can't heal ten wounds in one minute . And yet, Rey was completely fine after she woke up a minute after hitting the tree. She suffered no wound damage whatsoever. All that happened was she was staggered . She had the wind knocked out of her, that was all; no bruises, no scrapes, no cuts, no broken bones, nothing. Yes, that staggered effect would have been the result of a "critical injury" roll from the Bind Mastery upgrade, since Kylo used DPS to generate the power, but no wounds were suffered , and to heal that particular "critical injury" is an easy check, which would have been made on board the falcon after the battle, leaving no lasting effects. It was a minor crit, not a major one, not even a moderate one. But no wounds were suffered.

Uh, there are literally talents that let you heal wounds immediately, good sir. It is also highly variable what wound damage actually is - each time you take damage from a blaster shot, you probably aren't actually being shot directly. You may be hit with sparks or a slight graze.

Also - you haven't played the game.

23 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

No. It isn't, and it takes a long time to heal. It's not instantaneous . Rey was completely unharmed after she woke up within a minute of hitting that tree. 10 wounds don't heal that quickly. According to page 226 of F&D, it takes a full day to heal one wound of damage from natural rest. Even in a bacta tank, it takes two full hours to heal one wound. You can't heal ten wounds in one minute . And yet, Rey was completely fine after she woke up a minute after hitting the tree. She suffered no wound damage whatsoever. All that happened was she was staggered . She had the wind knocked out of her, that was all; no bruises, no scrapes, no cuts, no broken bones, nothing. Yes, that staggered effect would have been the result of a "critical injury" roll from the Bind Mastery upgrade, since Kylo used DPS to generate the power, but no wounds were suffered , and to heal that particular "critical injury" is an easy check, which would have been made on board the falcon after the battle, leaving no lasting effects. It was a minor crit, not a major one, not even a moderate one. But no wounds were suffered.

How do you know she suffered no Wounds? If she had suffered 10 Wounds but was still under her WT, how could you tell by RAW (since only RAW seems to matter to you)? The effects of having Wounds is--by RAW--nothing. Don't talk about being reasonable now, just stick with your rigid view of the RAW.

Stimpacks are a thing too.

Just now, Tear44 said:

Stimpacks are a thing too.

Sure. Never on screen, because "drugs are bad" but then we never see anyone urinate on the screen in SW either yet we accept that it happens.

21 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

No. It isn't, and it takes a long time to heal. It's not instantaneous . Rey was completely unharmed after she woke up within a minute of hitting that tree. 10 wounds don't heal that quickly. According to page 226 of F&D, it takes a full day to heal one wound of damage from natural rest. Even in a bacta tank, it takes two full hours to heal one wound. You can't heal ten wounds in one minute . And yet, Rey was completely fine after she woke up a minute after hitting the tree. She suffered no wound damage whatsoever. All that happened was she was staggered . She had the wind knocked out of her, that was all; no bruises, no scrapes, no cuts, no broken bones, nothing. Yes, that staggered effect would have been the result of a "critical injury" roll from the Bind Mastery upgrade, since Kylo used DPS to generate the power, but no wounds were suffered , and to heal that particular "critical injury" is an easy check, which would have been made on board the falcon after the battle, leaving no lasting effects. It was a minor crit, not a major one, not even a moderate one. But no wounds were suffered.

You know I was going to reply to this post... and I realized just how silly that would be.

Tramp, I am sorry... I just can't feed the troll any more.

Never apologize to the trolls.

am beginning to see why no one will play with him... I don't think he would be all that enjoyable to play with...

Also I see nothing about the movement upgrade to the bind power that comes across as you can use it by itself. It reads as an additional option to me. Not an instead of option.

Really, Tramp? I toss a RAI proposal at you and then you come back with RAW? I said, "this is what must have been meant," and you responded, "no, the rules say..."

I mean the only reason I even suggested that RAI ruling was because of your rigid stance on how powers can't have any redundant effects (don't sidestep this—I know you referenced a statement by the devs, but your interpretation of the statement is more rigid than it should be).

If you'd like to respond to my actual points, I would be happy to keep talking. But otherwise the discourse had basically been buried.

1 hour ago, Daeglan said:

Also I see nothing about the movement upgrade to the bind power that comes across as you can use it by itself. It reads as an additional option to me. Not an instead of option.

There was some discussion about this, and a question was sent to the developers. Read it in comparison to the other upgrades and you can see that a "RAW" interpretation could well be that it is an alternate use of the power.

I would be comfortable with a GM running it either way. One of my non-forum-going RPG friends looked at me weird and said "...but the power is called, 'Bind.' How am I using it to move someone instead of binding them? Why don't I just use the Move power?"

And I said, "Yeah..."

2 minutes ago, awayputurwpn said:

There was some discussion about this, and a question was sent to the developers. Read it in comparison to the other upgrades and you can see that a "RAW" interpretation could well be that it is an alternate use of the power.

I would be comfortable with a GM running it either way. One of my non-forum-going RPG friends looked at me weird and said "...but the power is called, 'Bind.' How am I using it to move someone instead of binding them? Why don't I just use the Move power?"

And I said, "Yeah..."

Yeah. I kind of see the bind move power as what was used to force choke Obiwan and toss him under the stairs...

18 hours ago, GroggyGolem said:

Do you mean Tramp or are you trying to put real world politics into this discussion of a role-playing game?

What does politics have to do with two people who live inside a reality bubble they generate for themselves and believe in Alternative Facts?

Anyone else find these dogmatic views reminiscent of any other posters from earlier days? Someone else who had never played due to not finding a game? Gotta be why I am enjoying this so much. Hope you find a game Tramp. Experience is much better than theory.

11 minutes ago, mouthymerc said:

Anyone else find these dogmatic views reminiscent of any other posters from earlier days? Someone else who had never played due to not finding a game? Gotta be why I am enjoying this so much. Hope you find a game Tramp. Experience is much better than theory.

yes... I cant imagine why no one wants to play with them...

2 hours ago, Daeglan said:

yes... I cant imagine why no one wants to play with them...

I don't know, I can image quite a bit.

Yes, let's be assholes to some guy over a game. Doing great work there.

4 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

Yes, let's be assholes to some guy over a game. Doing great work there.

Stan, you've taught me something today: that "assholes" gets through the filter. And for that, I thank you.

3 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

Yes, let's be assholes to some guy over a game. Doing great work there.

Well umm In our defense you can only smash your head into a brick wall so many times before you have to revert to your lesser instincts

Gaming is LIFE I mean why else would you work a crappy job to make money?