15 minutes ago, GroggyGolem said:

I can see what you're thinking but no the Destiny Point flip would be a separate thing in its entirety.

So there's Bind, which covers what happens to Poe

Then there's the Destiny Point flip, which covers the really cool blaster bolt being frozen.

Yes it can also be covered with Triumphs/Despairs on a check as long as the GM deems it reasonable but it is not at all part of the Bind power RAW, as Bind is written to only affects living/sentient targets. A Blaster Bolt isn't living or sentient, so it isn't covered by the Bind power but by the really bad thing on Poe's Despair or the really good thing on Kylo's Triumph or the Destiny Point. It's not at all done by using the Bind power RAW.

I agree, it's not, not without really stretching it through the use of Destiny Points or the opponent rolling Despairs. However, given that he specifically activated the power and held it over time (using a Duration upgrade) does mean that he was using Bind on it, but stretching the power's use well beyond its primary purpose, but still within its "mechanical" purpose, which is to immobilize a target. So, I see it as Kylo using Bind well beyond it's primary purpose through the use of Destiny or Despair rather than as two separate actions.

13 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

<<<raises hand>>>

It needs more random bolding ?

Oh, and HappyDaze, none of my "bolding" is done randomly. It is done strictly for emphasis .

5 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Without the Hurl upgrade, Move only works very slowly, as stated by the Devs.

Actually, if we're just repeating things ad nauseum, then let's point out that the above statement is wrong. The devs stated this:

"Force Push, Pull, and Move are all the same thing in our game. Anything you could do with Push, you should be able to do with Move."

...and they haven't ever contradicted it. This is what they've always said about it.

You, on the other hand:

• ...are the one inferring that it has changed, despite many examples to the contrary, even within the FaD core rulebook.
• ...are are the one inferring that Move only has 2 speeds. This is not RAW, but rather your attempt at RAI, which is contradicted by the statement from the devs (above) and in examples from the Move power rules themselves (the phrase "juggling crates," disarming someone's blaster (which Vader did quickly, not slowly and deliberately, and he didn't hurt himself in the process).

Here's what I don't get: you are attempting to argue that the developers intended something specific when they wrote it, but that would be contradicting their very answer to that rules question. Their answer shows exactly what they intended when they wrote it. Therefore, your inference as to the intent of the limitations of the power is simply wrong .

5 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

And, actually, as far as Kylo's action, even going by that statement, yes, there is still a problem, because what Kylo did was part of a single action, not multiple actions. He didn't freeze the bolt and then freeze Poe. He froze them both as a single action . That is what I'm talking about.

Movies don't have game actions or turns. What Kylo Ren did is easy to explain as a single action or as a reaction to Poe/action on his first turn. The narrative is fluid, while game mechanics are necessarily blocky.

11 minutes ago, awayputurwpn said:

Actually, if we're just repeating things ad nauseum, then let's point out that the above statement is wrong. The devs stated this:

"Force Push, Pull, and Move are all the same thing in our game. Anything you could do with Push, you should be able to do with Move."

...and they haven't ever contradicted it. This is what they've always said about it.

You, on the other hand:

• ...are the one inferring that it has changed, despite many examples to the contrary, even within the FaD core rulebook.
• ...are are the one inferring that Move only has 2 speeds. This is not RAW, but rather your attempt at RAI, which is contradicted by the statement from the devs (above) and in examples from the Move power rules themselves (the phrase "juggling crates," disarming someone's blaster (which Vader did quickly, not slowly and deliberately, and he didn't hurt himself in the process).

Here's what I don't get: you are attempting to argue that the developers intended something specific when they wrote it, but that would be contradicting their very answer to that rules question. Their answer shows exactly what they intended when they wrote it. Therefore, your inference as to the intent of the limitations of the power is simply wrong .

Movies don't have game actions or turns. What Kylo Ren did is easy to explain as a single action or as a reaction to Poe/action on his first turn. The narrative is fluid, while game mechanics are necessarily blocky.

I'm not inferring that Move only has two speeds. I'm explicitly stating it . The Devs even said as much . Without the Hurl upgrade, Move only allows slow, deliberate movement at no faster than walking speed. This was explicitly stated by the Developers in one of the Order 66 Podcasts. In fact, if I remember correctly, it was Sam Stewart who said it. So, yes, Move only has two speeds.

Provide a quote, please. A source, a link, anything.

5 minutes ago, StarkJunior said:

Provide a quote, please. A source, a link, anything.

It was one of the Order 66 podcasts, I don't remember exactly which one, but I think it was 83 , since that was the one dedicated to the Move power. I don't have time to listen to the whole thing at the moment though.

54 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

It was one of the Order 66 podcasts, I don't remember exactly which one, but I think it was 83 , since that was the one dedicated to the Move power. I don't have time to listen to the whole thing at the moment though.

Yeah, so he's going on about how you can chain all the Control upgrades using 1 pip since they don't require separate activations once you buy all the way to Mastery. Nothing he's saying at all implies there are only ever TWO speeds. He's talking about moving something across the floor, then picking it up and putting it into something, and then picking a lock... all with 1 roll. There is nothing deliberate about the speed.

He's also talking about how you can use Move to fight with weapons remotely, and like hell all attacks are only ever going to be the same two speeds.

So... yeah, no.

4 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

By the Rules and by the Developers statements , there are indeed only two speeds: Slow (no more than walking speed) or fast (as a projectile). There is no in between according to the developers themselves. So yes, my "attitude" is that Move only has two speeds. And this was confirmed by the Developers.

No there are not. per the Paragraph we keep pointing to that says a slow walk it also says juggle heavy crates. I don't know about you but the juggling I have seen moves pretty fast but is not going to do damage to anyone. It also has the ability to do anything you can do with your hands. which would include lobbing things. So we see a whole range of speeds can be done with the move power depending on what control upgrades you have. I see no reason why someone who has the hurl upgrade could not toss things with decent speed with out doing damage. Other than you are being super rigid in a game system that is meant to be very flexible. Loosen up. The game is more fun if you aren't being so super rigid.

I love this thread. I vote it most entertaining. I applaud all the vets continuing to debate someone who hasn't actually played. This is awesome. Best popcorn and beer thread in a while.

4 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

No there are not. per the Paragraph we keep pointing to that says a slow walk it also says juggle heavy crates. I don't know about you but the juggling I have seen moves pretty fast but is not going to do damage to anyone. It also has the ability to do anything you can do with your hands. which would include lobbing things. So we see a whole range of speeds can be done with the move power depending on what control upgrades you have. I see no reason why someone who has the hurl upgrade could not toss things with decent speed with out doing damage. Other than you are being super rigid in a game system that is meant to be very flexible. Loosen up. The game is more fun if you aren't being so super rigid.

First off, the Base Move power without any upgrades is slow, as the developers said. and throwing stuff with Move is specifically covered by Hurl, which does damage. The Fine Manipulation upgrade does not cover Force Push either. And, yes, in most instances of that upgrade, it is still relatively slow, not super high speed. However, the Bind movement upgrade does cover normal, non-damaging uses of Force Push and Force Pull exactly, and even the Developers have said that if one power explicitly does one thing, another power shouldn't be doing the exact same thing. The Bind movement upgrade explicitly pushes a target away from the user at speed, or pulls a target to the user, at speed, which is what Force Push and Force Pull do under most circumstances. So you have two very different effects covered by two different powers for two different purposes.

Wow... still super rigid. This is why you are having trouble with people here. This game system is not meant to be as rigid as you are being. We also have the DEVs saying force pull and push are Move. Might be because the Devs decided that is the best power to do it with. Probably because Move is about moving things. Also the very paragraph you are quoting has several speeds talked about in it. So yeah. You are being super rigid. In a way this game does not call for.

No, Move is Push and Pull. Push and Pull are both moving something.

Again.

"Force Push, Pull, and Move are all the same thing in our game. Anything you could do with Push, you should be able to do with Move."

Just now, Daeglan said:

Wow... still super rigid. This is why you are having trouble with people here. This game system is not meant to be as rigid as you are being. We a;sp have the DEVs saying force pull and push are Move. Might be because the Devs decided that is the best power to do it with. Probably because Move is about moving things. Also the very paragraph you are quoting has several speeds talked about in it. So yeah. You are being super rigid. In a way this game does not call for.

No. It was the only option at the time that statement was made. F&D hadn't been officially released yet, and the Bind power with its Movement upgrade didn't exist except in a Beta form at the time . So Move was the only official option. That is not the case now. Now we have a power and upgrade that exactly emulates non damaging form of Force Push and Force Pull exactly. And that is the Bind Movement upgrade.

And the Devs have never countermanded this. even though they have had plenty of opportunity to do so. Must mean they still use Move to do it. And so far you are the only person I have seen make this claim.

25 minutes ago, StarkJunior said:

Yeah, so he's going on about how you can chain all the Control upgrades using 1 pip since they don't require separate activations once you buy all the way to Mastery. Nothing he's saying at all implies there are only ever TWO speeds. He's talking about moving something across the floor, then picking it up and putting it into something, and then picking a lock... all with 1 roll. There is nothing deliberate about the speed.

He's also talking about how you can use Move to fight with weapons remotely, and like hell all attacks are only ever going to be the same two speeds.

So... yeah, no.

Actualy, yes, in a question that was asked to him about using Move to levitate and fly, he responded that no, it would not be really feasible because Move is too slow, only about Walking Speed . As I said, I don't know if 83 is the episode where it was stated, but that was his response to that question.

Just now, Tramp Graphics said:

Actualy, yes, in a question that was asked to him about using Move to levitate and fly, he responded that no, it would not be really feasible because Move is too slow, only about Walking Speed . As I said, I don't know if 83 is the episode where it was stated, but that was his response to that question.

yeah he was talking about moving ones self to fly. very different question to the one we are talking about here.

Yet, he directly sites examples from Empire where Vader is throwing things at Luke, and they are definitely not walking speed. Neither is fighting remotely with lightsabers.

Base Move is slow - but it is not when you buy all the upgrades!

And yeah, how does that even relate?

8 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

yeah he was talking about moving ones self to fly. very different question to the one we are talking about here.

Yeah, I remember that discussion.

3 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

yeah he was talking about moving ones self to fly. very different question to the one we are talking about here.

Not really. The point he was making is that Move's base power is too slow. He speficically stated Move's base power was too slow , only about walking speed, and because of this , was not really feasible for the action asked about. Because Move's base power is only walking speed at most, you can't really use it for effective flight. The precedence is that Move is slow without the Hurl upgrade, and this is also pretty much what the hurl upgrade points out. the base Move power is slow ; it is only the hurl upgrade which creates fast movement using Move .

2 minutes ago, StarkJunior said:

Yet, he directly sites examples from Empire where Vader is throwing things at Luke, and they are definitely not walking speed. Neither is fighting remotely with lightsabers.

Base Move is slow - but it is not when you buy all the upgrades!

And yeah, how does that even relate?

Vader used the Hurl upgrade to hurl those items at Luke. He also used the control upgrade which allowed him to rip things out of secure mountings to do so. And that's what I'm talking about. The only way Move can move a person fast, is through Hurl, and that is a ranged attack for damage. If you only want to push someone away from you at speed, or pull them to you, as we see Kylo Ren and Kanan do in the examples I gave earlier, where Kanan Force Pushes Ezra across a chasm at speed, and Kylo pulls the First Oder officer to him, and pushes Rey several meters away from him, those are specifically covered by the Bind movement upgrade.

yeah Kylo hurled Rey. And we quite clearly see Ahsoka use Move to move someone slowly. So clearly you are wrong. And they did not say you could not move yourself. They said it would be slow.

1 minute ago, Daeglan said:

yeah Kylo hurled Rey. And we quite clearly see Ahsoka use Move to move someone slowly. So clearly you are wrong. And they did not say you could not move yourself. They said it would be slow.

No, he pushed her away. Rey didn't suffer any physical injuries from that push. If he was using Hurl, she would have had serious wounds done to her. (10 wounds of damage). Instead, all that happened was she was staggered for a minute or so. Thus, it was not Hurl.

does not mean the power he used was bind. we clearly see move used at different speeds and people be moved at different speeds. and Hey the Devs have said push and pull are move. until they say other wise i am going with move.

21 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

However, the Bind movement upgrade does cover normal, non-damaging uses of Force Push and Force Pull exactly, and even the Developers have said that if one power explicitly does one thing, another power shouldn't be doing the exact same thing. The Bind movement upgrade explicitly pushes a target away from the user at speed, or pulls a target to the user, at speed, which is what Force Push and Force Pull do under most circumstances. So you have two very different effects covered by two different powers for two different purposes.

Then the only recourse left to us is that the Bind upgrade is meant to be used in tandem with the base power.

Otherwise you're arguing anachronistically and irrationally that there was something a power did, and the devs thought it worked fine, but then they made another power that did the same thing, so now for some reason the original power can't do that thing.

19 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

No, he pushed her away. Rey didn't suffer any physical injuries from that push. If he was using Hurl, she would have had serious wounds done to her. (10 wounds of damage). Instead, all that happened was she was staggered for a minute or so. Thus, it was not Hurl.

No physical injuries?? She got *knocked out.* That pretty much requires some form of physical injury. Being slammed into a tree can do that.

I find it odd the person who has never played the game is trying to tell the people who have been playing the game since the edge beta how to play the game....I have played in games with Sam Stewart. I have had several conversations with him. And the one thing i have noticed is that he is never rigid with things. He tends to respond in conversations with things like that is one way to do that. He seems to consider multiple ways of doing things to be the norm.