The key with the Inquistor example is that, as the text stated, he's throwing targets around at other targets . In other words, he's making a ranged attack . Of course that's the Move Hurl upgrade. However, Force Push and Force Pull aren't primarily used to hurl people at other people . They're not ranged attacks . That is the difference. Force Push and Force Pull simply push a target away from or pull the target to the user, nothing more . And that, specifically is described as the Bind movement upgrade per RAW. It's a matter of intended use. Are you hurling an object (or person) at another person or target, specifically to inflict damage, or are you simply pushing them back or pulling then forwards? If you're hurling a projectile (even if said projectile is a person) as a ranged attack , that's the Move hurl upgrade. If you're simply pushing someone back or pulling them forwards, that's the Bind movement upgrade per RAW .

So it's your interpretation of RAW vs the prescription of the developers on the matter?

Okay.

Another point for discussion that I don't believe has been raised yet: let's say that, for some reason, the Move power is inappropriate for accomplishing a Force push. Let's also remember that the traditional Niman form has two central lightsaber/Force techniques: Draw Closer, and Pushing Slash. Note that the Niman Disciple tree has a talent called "Draw Closer," which is a Force pull combined with a lightsaber attack. But Pushing Slash is conspicuously absent from the Niman Disciple talent tree. That is, UNLESS it is intended to be given as one aspect of the "Force Assault" talent, which allows a Force user to use the Move power directly after a failed Lightsaber check (it doesn't limit the power's use to the original target of the Lightsaber check, so its application is of course broader than just a pushing slash). Given that Draw Closer exists as a standalone talent, but Pushing Slash can only possibly be replicated through the Force Assault talent, I would submit that the Move power can be used to simulate a Force push. Unless someone else has an idea of where Pushing Slash went?

2 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Bind being inaccessible until FR2 is not a "big problem" at all, as far as I am concerned. The issue is what you consider Force Pushing and Force Pulling, and what they're intended to do....

So we are dismissing Ahsoka's Force push on her very first adventure? That's fine...it was a good enough reason for me.

Any thoughts about the Force Choke points I made? I thought it was pertinent to the discussion, but it seems to have been ignored.

Let's point out, since we seem to be stuck on about specific wordings and definitions, that the Bind power and the Draw Closer talent share the same word, "move" in their descriptions. There is no mention of "push" or "pull" in either description; just, "move." But yet, that is what "they're intended to do," as you say.

Let's also point out that the Move power actually has the word "pull" in it (in one of the Control upgrades). Now, either the word "move" does not normally entail "pulling," and the upgrade where it resides suddenly allows you to "pull" something instead of "moving" it, or the word "pull" can be a more particular synonym of "move." I can't actually believe I'm basically arguing syntax, but this is what it's come to. Function is important; you brought this up. And "Moving" is simply the mechanical function of each power/talent being discussed. The cinematic/narrative function is largely up to the play group. As to what the application of the power is "intended to do"...the intention is all bound up in the narrative. And the mechanics, thankfully, give the narrative a wide berth.

Now as to the examples proffered from the films: Kylo Ren is feasibly powerful enough to have purchased the majority of the Bind power tree. It seems to be his bread-and-butter power. And one could argue that his throwing Rey against the tree was either Bind or Move. And that was exactly my point. You can do similar things with both powers.

• I could argue that, in game terms, Kylo Ren probably used Move against Rey (that's damage from slamming against the tree, and damage again from falling), but that, in game terms, Dooku probably used Bind against Obi-Wan aboard the Invisible Hand (rolling well enough for the GM to allow him to put Obi-Wan out of the fight with the collapsed walkway) . It's a matter of opinion, but my point is that both powers can accomplish nearly the same thing when it comes to these types of scenarios (allowing, of course, that Move can make things go much farther, whereas Bind can more easily make them stay in place).

The thing here is, TG, you're giving way too much weight to the sentence from the Move power on page 298, "When moving items, the default speed is slow and deliberate..." Note the word "default." Also, note the context: the paragraph before talks about how Force users can grow from "slowly and painstakingly" moving small objects around to "juggling heavy crates in the air." So it would seem there is a progression of potentiality. Which makes good common sense, right? So, once a user gets to where they can affect a human-sized target (a minimum of 10XP invested for the first Strength upgrade), they have begun to improve their ability, and it might just be possible that they are able to exceed the "default" speed. Would you say?

2 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

The key with the Inquistor example is that, as the text stated, he's throwing targets around at other targets . In other words, he's making a ranged attack . Of course that's the Move Hurl upgrade. However, Force Push and Force Pull aren't primarily used to hurl people at other people . They're not ranged attacks . That is the difference. Force Push and Force Pull simply push a target away from or pull the target to the user, nothing more . And that, specifically is described as the Bind movement upgrade per RAW. It's a matter of intended use. Are you hurling an object (or person) at another person or target, specifically to inflict damage, or are you simply pushing them back or pulling then forwards? If you're hurling a projectile (even if said projectile is a person) as a ranged attack , that's the Move hurl upgrade. If you're simply pushing someone back or pulling them forwards, that's the Bind movement upgrade per RAW .

Umm actually they are hurls.

Usually into solid objects like the floor or the ceiling or that wall or even a bridge.

9 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

"Move's entire function is to literally move things around..."

Whoa! Slow down, hoss. You're talking crazy now.

Wait...!

If I using Influence to mind-whammy a stormtrooper into walking away, why can't I use Move instead, since they're moving? What about using Move to Force leap since I'm moving? I gots a Mastah's in Rules Lawyering (and Sarcasms), fools!

7 minutes ago, Alderaan Crumbs said:

Wait...!

If I using Influence to mind-whammy a stormtrooper into walking away, why can't I use Move instead, since they're moving? What about using Move to Force leap since I'm moving? I gots a Mastah's in Rules Lawyering (and Sarcasms), fools!

Or, what if you used Misdirect, and made everyone think that you were using Move to mind-whammy a stormtrooper into walking away...?

8 minutes ago, awayputurwpn said:

Or, what if you used Misdirect, and made everyone think that you were using Move to mind-whammy a stormtrooper into walking away...?

I...um...that's just...

...YOU'RE OVER 9,000!!!!!

20 hours ago, awayputurwpn said:

So it's your interpretation of RAW vs the prescription of the developers on the matter?

Okay.

Another point for discussion that I don't believe has been raised yet: let's say that, for some reason, the Move power is inappropriate for accomplishing a Force push. Let's also remember that the traditional Niman form has two central lightsaber/Force techniques: Draw Closer, and Pushing Slash. Note that the Niman Disciple tree has a talent called "Draw Closer," which is a Force pull combined with a lightsaber attack. But Pushing Slash is conspicuously absent from the Niman Disciple talent tree. That is, UNLESS it is intended to be given as one aspect of the "Force Assault" talent, which allows a Force user to use the Move power directly after a failed Lightsaber check (it doesn't limit the power's use to the original target of the Lightsaber check, so its application is of course broader than just a pushing slash). Given that Draw Closer exists as a standalone talent, but Pushing Slash can only possibly be replicated through the Force Assault talent, I would submit that the Move power can be used to simulate a Force push. Unless someone else has an idea of where Pushing Slash went?

So we are dismissing Ahsoka's Force push on her very first adventure? That's fine...it was a good enough reason for me.

Any thoughts about the Force Choke points I made? I thought it was pertinent to the discussion, but it seems to have been ignored.

Let's point out, since we seem to be stuck on about specific wordings and definitions, that the Bind power and the Draw Closer talent share the same word, "move" in their descriptions. There is no mention of "push" or "pull" in either description; just, "move." But yet, that is what "they're intended to do," as you say.

Let's also point out that the Move power actually has the word "pull" in it (in one of the Control upgrades). Now, either the word "move" does not normally entail "pulling," and the upgrade where it resides suddenly allows you to "pull" something instead of "moving" it, or the word "pull" can be a more particular synonym of "move." I can't actually believe I'm basically arguing syntax, but this is what it's come to. Function is important; you brought this up. And "Moving" is simply the mechanical function of each power/talent being discussed. The cinematic/narrative function is largely up to the play group. As to what the application of the power is "intended to do"...the intention is all bound up in the narrative. And the mechanics, thankfully, give the narrative a wide berth.

Now as to the examples proffered from the films: Kylo Ren is feasibly powerful enough to have purchased the majority of the Bind power tree. It seems to be his bread-and-butter power. And one could argue that his throwing Rey against the tree was either Bind or Move. And that was exactly my point. You can do similar things with both powers.

• I could argue that, in game terms, Kylo Ren probably used Move against Rey (that's damage from slamming against the tree, and damage again from falling), but that, in game terms, Dooku probably used Bind against Obi-Wan aboard the Invisible Hand (rolling well enough for the GM to allow him to put Obi-Wan out of the fight with the collapsed walkway) . It's a matter of opinion, but my point is that both powers can accomplish nearly the same thing when it comes to these types of scenarios (allowing, of course, that Move can make things go much farther, whereas Bind can more easily make them stay in place).

The thing here is, TG, you're giving way too much weight to the sentence from the Move power on page 298, "When moving items, the default speed is slow and deliberate..." Note the word "default." Also, note the context: the paragraph before talks about how Force users can grow from "slowly and painstakingly" moving small objects around to "juggling heavy crates in the air." So it would seem there is a progression of potentiality. Which makes good common sense, right? So, once a user gets to where they can affect a human-sized target (a minimum of 10XP invested for the first Strength upgrade), they have begun to improve their ability, and it might just be possible that they are able to exceed the "default" speed. Would you say?

The "Default" is the base power. Even the Dev's have said that the base Move power moves objects slowly (as in walking speed ). Which is why they said using it for levitating yourself and "flying" was not really feasible. The only way that speed increases, by RAW, is through the Hurl upgrade, which specifically turns Move into a ranged attack to hurl objects at other people.

19 hours ago, Decorus said:

Umm actually they are hurls.

Usually into solid objects like the floor or the ceiling or that wall or even a bridge.

Nope. Hurl is specifically a ranged attack against a target. In other words, you must roll a ranged attack along with a Force Power roll to hit a target. The person or object being hurled is not the target. It's simply the projectile. Both of the examples I gave were the power specifically being used to push a target backwards away from the user or pull the target towards the user. They weren't ranged attacks against another target using a person as a projectile.

I'm nor sure maybe its just your general lack of basic reading comprehension.

I activate hurl on the minion group and target the floor or the ceiling or the wall or the yt-2400 or the force field or the AT-AT etc...

The minion troopers take 10 damage minus soak the inanimate object I targeted takes 10 damage as well.

The minion group is the thing I'm hurling the thing I'm targeting is something entirely different.

Hey look Inquistor using force push to slam someone into a door.

Ashoka force pushes someone into the floor and then she force pushes someone into a column.

As you can see its canon that move can be used to force push people into things to inflict damage and knock them down.

To quote the Move Hurl upgrade page 298 F&D:

Quote

The user gains the ability to move objects fast enough so as to be both difficult to dodge and capable of inflicting damage. Resulting impacts deal damage to both the target and object being thrown. The user makes a Force power check and rolls a ranged attack as part of the pool .

Force Push is not a ranged attack on a target. Force Push pushes a target away from the user; Force Pull pulls a target to the Force User, n othing more . Once again, it is a matter of intent . If you're throwing something or someone at someone, that is the Move hurl upgrade. If you're Force Pushing someone away from you or Force pulling them to you, that is the Bind movement upgrade, since the point of Force Push is to push someone away from you, and the point of Force Pull is to pull someone towards you , it is not to use them as a projectile. If you want to use someone as a projectile, yes,, that's the Move, hurl upgrade. But if you're using Force Push or Force Pull for its intended purpose, which is to push them away from you or pull them to you, then that is the Bind movement upgrade. Hence the Bind movement upgrade, by RAW, is Force Push and Force Pull .

4 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

To quote the Move Hurl upgrade page 298 F&D:

Force Push is not a ranged attack on a target. Force Push pushes a target away from the user; Force Pull pulls a target to the Force User, n othing more . Once again, it is a matter of intent . If you're throwing something or someone at someone, that is the Move hurl upgrade. If you're Force Pushing someone away from you or Force pulling them to you, that is the Bind movement upgrade, since the point of Force Push is to push someone away from you, and the point of Force Pull is to pull someone towards you , it is not to use them as a projectile. If you want to use someone as a projectile, yes,, that's the Move, hurl upgrade. But if you're using Force Push or Force Pull for its intended purpose, which is to push them away from you or pull them to you, then that is the Bind movement upgrade. Hence the Bind movement upgrade, by RAW, is Force Push and Force Pull .

ummm wow your so rigid in your thinking. It is like talking to a wall. Force push can push things away or into other objects. Nothing says they have to be pushed into an object.

Just an update I'm still awaiting a dev response to all this.

14 hours ago, Daeglan said:

ummm wow your so rigid in your thinking. It is like talking to a wall. Force push can push things away or into other objects. Nothing says they have to be pushed into an object.

You're missing the point. Everyone assumes that Force Push is an attack using the Hurl upgrade of Move used to cause damage when that is not the case. While the Move hurl upgrade is what's used for that particular purpose , that isn't really Force Push or Force Pull , not as originally depicted in the movies, games, etc. That's using someone as a projectile to hit someone else. The best examples of actual Force Push and Force Pull don't do damage . And even when they do, they're easily emulated by Bind's Mastery upgrade which either Staggers the target or causes a Critical Injury, depending upon whether any DSPs were used to calculate FPs.

Let's look at Kylo Ren. As depicted in TFA, the only two Force Powers we ever really see him use are Bind and Sense . He uses the base form of Bind against both Poe Dameron (and his blaster bolt) and Rey to immobilize them. He also uses the movement upgradeto pull that First Oder officer to him and again to push Rey back several meters. In the last case, he also uses Bind's Mastety upgrade to inflict a critical injury (since, as a Dark Side character he must use DSPs to generate FPs without suffering Strain), rolling a 21-25) on the Percentile dice +10 resulting in Staggering Rey. Note that Rey was not actually physically hurt, just stunned for a minute or so. This why it is the Bind movement upgrade combined with its Mastery upgrade being used, and not Move's Hurl upgrade. if it were Hurl Kylo had used, Rey would have suffered 10 Wounds of actual damage and likely have been completely incapacitated, or nearly so. Instead, all that happened was she got stunned briefly and recovered completely within a minute or two. No actual damage was inflicted . That is why it was not the Move Hurl upgrade, but rather Bind's movement upgrade which was used.

I really enjoy the official Star Wars Databank description of Force Push. I've been reading through this discussion still and am awaiting a dev response still, so rather than get too far into the discussion, I thought I'd just share this.

http://www.starwars.com/databank/force-push

12 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

-deleted post-

So I'll clear something up. Everyone but you Tramp think the the Basic Move Power is Force Push/Pull. We understand your argument about "slow and deliberate" but we also have a much deeper understanding of the squishy time and space rules of this system. One character can perform a seemingly 10 second action while another performs a 2 minute action all in the same round and that's ok.

So for us the fact that the basic move power moves a target without causing any damage to them is entirely acceptable for Push/pull. Pushing someone over can absolutely be slow (relative to a gunshot perhaps), and it's definitely deliberate.

Edit: of course we also think that if you intended to Force Push a target with the intention of causing harm the the Hurl upgrade is exactly the right method. It's this dual use of Move that tells us we are on the right path. It would be rather ridiculous if you had to use one power for Push/Pull when you don't want to injure and another power when you do.

13 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

You're missing the point. Everyone assumes that Force Push is an attack using the Hurl upgrade of Move used to cause damage...

I don't think that! I assume that Move can be used to accomplish a Force Push, even when not dealing damage and just used for tactical purposes, independent of the "hurl" Control upgrade.

TG, thanks for finally admitting that you believe that Move only has 2 speeds: slow and deliberate, or fast and lethal. I was afraid I was arguing against a strawman, but you have confirmed that that is actually your position.

It seems sensible to me (and, I assume, to others here) that there can degrees of speed in the Move power—as one becomes more powerful and experienced, one can exert more telekinetic power through the Force to move things more quickly or with more refinement, and as you grow in power, you can eventually do things like type on a keyboard or treat a rock like a projectile. But there are degrees to this. Even in the rules talking about the Move power, they mention "juggling crates" as an example of how one's power and ability can grow. Juggling isn't a slow and deliberate action—and yet, it also isn't a violent action. It connotes frenetic, but controlled, fast-paced movement. In other words, one doesn't just move things around slowly and deliberately for weeks, and then one day suddenly wake up with the ability to turn a rock into a projectile weapon. This scenario just seems ridiculous to me—and I hope it does to you, as well.

If you cannot admit that there are degrees to this, but instead insist on a rigid, binary interpretation of the the Move power's speed, then I don't see how any more discussion on the matter is going to help

Hilarious that this post is as long as it is, is still going, still on topic , and ultimately no one who comes to this forum for an answer to this question in the future is EVER going to read this thread because it's so long (and as it sounds no one reading it presently is gonna listen to Tramp), and even if they did read it, they will probably just continue doing whatever their pre-conceived notion was anyway (says Science, anyway).

11 minutes ago, emsquared said:

Hilarious that this post is as long as it is, is still going, still on topic , and ultimately no one who comes to this forum for an answer to this question in the future is EVER going to read this thread because it's so long (and as it sounds no one reading it presently is gonna listen to Tramp), and even if they did read it, they will probably just continue doing whatever their pre-conceived notion was anyway (says Science, anyway).

We did have a good long stretch of off-topic-ness, somewhere back there...

"A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still." We know this. But duty calls!

And when Duty calls...

You roll a d100 and check against the PCs' combined magnitudes...

You guys realize that both powers can be used to simulate force push and pull, right? This system tends to have multiple approaches to get the same outcomes. It's a narrative system.

Just now, ghatt said:

You guys realize that both powers can be used to simulate force push and pull, right? This system tends to have multiple approaches to get the same outcomes. It's a narrative system.

YES! That is what we have been saying. But Tramp denies this.

15 minutes ago, awayputurwpn said:

I don't think that! I assume that Move can be used to accomplish a Force Push, even when not dealing damage and just used for tactical purposes, independent of the "hurl" Control upgrade.

TG, thanks for finally admitting that you believe that Move only has 2 speeds: slow and deliberate, or fast and lethal. I was afraid I was arguing against a strawman, but you have confirmed that that is actually your position.

It seems sensible to me (and, I assume, to others here) that there can degrees of speed in the Move power—as one becomes more powerful and experienced, one can exert more telekinetic power through the Force to move things more quickly or with more refinement, and as you grow in power, you can eventually do things like type on a keyboard or treat a rock like a projectile. But there are degrees to this. Even in the rules talking about the Move power, they mention "juggling crates" as an example of how one's power and ability can grow. Juggling isn't a slow and deliberate action—and yet, it also isn't a violent action. It connotes frenetic, but controlled, fast-paced movement. In other words, one doesn't just move things around slowly and deliberately for weeks, and then one day suddenly wake up with the ability to turn a rock into a projectile weapon. This scenario just seems ridiculous to me—and I hope it does to you, as well.

If you cannot admit that there are degrees to this, but instead insist on a rigid, binary interpretation of the the Move power's speed, then I don't see how any more discussion on the matter is going to help

It was the Developers themselves who said that the base Move power is Slow and Deliberate. And I have always made that point clear. So it's not a matterr of "admitting or denying" anything. Move's base power is very slow movement. Period, according to the Developers. The Hurl upgrade makes it a ranged attack at high speed. There is no "degrees of speed" according to the RAW or the Developers. Therefore, the Base move power is not Force Push or Force Pull . It is too slow .

13 minutes ago, ghatt said:

You guys realize that both powers can be used to simulate force push and pull, right? This system tends to have multiple approaches to get the same outcomes. It's a narrative system.

12 minutes ago, awayputurwpn said:

YES! That is what we have been saying. But Tramp denies this.

Not true. I said it was a matter of intent . If your intent is to slam someone into someone else as a projectile with the express purpose of inflicting damage to that third party, then yes, the Move hurl upgrade is appropriate. For all other uses (pushing people away from you, puling them to you, etc.) it's the Bind movement upgrade which best emulates Force Push and Force Pull , not the base Move power. The base Move power is too slow.

It is also the developers who said this:

On 9/14/2014 at 9:17 AM, kaosoe said:

Force Push as Move Power

Question asked by Josep Maria

There is any official response about "Force Push" power or it isn't created? It's a variant from Move?

Answered by Sam Stewart :

Force Push, Pull, and Move are all the same thing in our game. Anything you could do with Push, you should be able to do with Move.

"Anything you could do with Push, you should be able to do with Move."

How is that not definitive? Just because a new power (like Bind) is published, doesn't mean that Move suddenly loses its ability to do something that it could do from the beginning.

Sorry, I said I was done, and now I'm done.

4 minutes ago, awayputurwpn said:

It is also the developers who said this:

"Anything you could do with Push, you should be able to do with Move."

How is that not definitive? Just because a new power (like Bind) is published, doesn't mean that Move suddenly loses its ability to do something that it could do from the beginning.

Sorry, I said I was done, and now I'm done.

It is because the Bind and its movement upgrade didn't yet exist as part of the completed game that they ruled that. The inclusion of the newer power and its upgrade does change things. It does so inherently . This is because the new power does better reflect the power as seen in the movies, books and games.