11 minutes ago, Shizuya said:

I know. thing is, the main fight was in a storage hall and most of it at short range, so he actually didnt have to use range upgrades. he sometimes threw one opponent, sometimes two onto a third one. it was all perfectly going after RAW dont worry. and I think the fight only lasted for 3 or 4 rounds. maybe he didnt note his conflict well enough but he said he had two. I didnt feel responsible for noting them tbh.

Oh...listen to episode 7 of the Order 66 Podcast. The List. It will help with that issue.

1 minute ago, Daeglan said:

Oh...listen to episode 7 of the Order 66 Podcast. The List. It will help with that issue.

what issue exactly`? I'm currently listening to episode 83 🤣

5 minutes ago, Shizuya said:

what issue exactly`? I'm currently listening to episode 83 🤣

In Star wars does anything ever happen in a small space? Dont do things in spaces where the longest range is short range. It is boring

Just now, Daeglan said:

In Star wars does anything ever happen in a small space? Dont do things in spaces where the longest range is short range. It is boring

sure it can happen. and it wasnt my quest I dont think cantina shootings and the like are uncommon

I honestly don't see anything problematic/broken with the behavior you've described. Pretty standard/smart/mild use of the Power at low XP levels.

Conflict, Destiny and Strain should be doing their job at this stage (I don't think I've ever had a campaign where someone wasn't "the Move Guy", indeed I've been that guy). 3 FR just isn't enough to be a problem reliably. Which leads me to believe he's slipping something by you or you're not doing it quite right.

Did you guys feel the need to nerf Auto-Fire? Or a Stun, Blast-specialist? Or a Scathing Tirade specialist? When playing Edge?

By 350-earned, you could have a Lightsaber user who's triggering 5 Crits on a single Lightsaber roll (along with their Vicious)... One-shotting your Nemeses. What would you do about that?

Or someone with optimised Heal/Harm, draining the life out of just about anyone in a round or two. Or anyone at all with very mild levels of Influence Control upgrades. That can be very hard to deal with...

This system can be broken in a hundred places, not the least of which is just having a reasonably rated underlying Characteristic and then maximizing Skill ranks in basically anything under that Characteristic...

The notion that the GM shouldn't have to use the narrative to incur appropriate consequences for legitimately inadvisable in game behavior is just mind boggling to me.

Andit's especially absurd to me, the notion that you shouldn't have to create challenges/scenarios that don't cater directly to your PCs abilities.

Or, no less, that you shouldn't let them shine with the thing they're good at...

At any rate, good luck with your game.

35 minutes ago, Shizuya said:

I know. thing is, the main fight was in a storage hall and most of it at short range, so he actually didnt have to use range upgrades. he sometimes threw one opponent, sometimes two onto a third one. it was all perfectly going after RAW dont worry. and I think the fight only lasted for 3 or 4 rounds. maybe he didnt note his conflict well enough but he said he had two. I didnt feel responsible for noting them tbh.

For what it is worth throwing "two opponents into one" requires use of the autofire rules. That is, you need enough pips to move both of the objects (which is 1 pip for base use, 1 pip for magnitude, and 1 pip for silhouette increase) being thrown, and then you increase the difficulty by one and need a success and at least two advantage/triumph to have them both hit. And it is 10 damage for each hit plus successes, minus soak against the targeted opponent. Still pretty good damage if both hit, but also highly probably a high WT rival or nemesis could eat that damage and be fine.

Certainly not trying to patronizing here, just hoping to share some relevant rules on the topic at hand.

14 minutes ago, emsquared said:

I honestly don't see anything problematic/broken with the behavior you've described. Pretty standard/smart/mild use of the Power at low XP levels.

Conflict, Destiny and Strain should be doing their job at this stage (I don't think I've ever had a campaign where someone wasn't "the Move Guy", indeed I've been that guy). 3 FR just isn't enough to be a problem reliably. Which leads me to believe he's slipping something by you or you're not doing it quite right.

Did you guys feel the need to nerf Auto-Fire? Or a Stun, Blast-specialist? Or a Scathing Tirade specialist? When playing Edge?

By 350-earned, you could have a Lightsaber user who's triggering 5 Crits on a single Lightsaber roll (along with their Vicious)... One-shotting your Nemeses. What would you do about that?

Or someone with optimised Heal/Harm, draining the life out of just about anyone in a round or two. Or anyone at all with very mild levels of Influence Control upgrades. That can be very hard to deal with...

This system can be broken in a hundred places, not the least of which is just having a reasonably rated underlying Characteristic and then maximizing Skill ranks in basically anything under that Characteristic...

The notion that the GM shouldn't have to use the narrative to incur appropriate consequences for legitimately inadvisable in game behavior is just mind boggling to me.

Andit's especially absurd to me, the notion that you shouldn't have to create challenges/scenarios that don't cater directly to your PCs abilities.

Or, no less, that you shouldn't let them shine with the thing they're good at...

At any rate, good luck with your game.

we did indeed nerf autofire to need one additional advantage for every shot after the second. and the one player who used auto fire was very happy about that, since he shot the 2 magna guards that were kind of the final boss to pieces in 2 rounds in his very own quest. I would rule the same for crit but it hasnt ever been a problem in our campaign. I was the crit guy but I never oneshot any nemesis, also its entirely luck based (d100). only our padawan even possesses a lightsaber so far and it's certainly not a modded one.

of course the game can be broken in a multitude of ways. it's pretty clear that you are intentionally not reacting to any of the scenarios with move I presented, with per RAW up to 200 damage in a roll. no crit or auto fire weapon will ever come remotely close to that.

I never said that the GM shouldnt use narrative to react to players and situations lol.

and yes ofc the GM has to put challenges and scenarios for the PCs. last campaign he played a hutt agitator, 3 or 4 times intimidating, 3 plausible deniability, willpower 4, coercion 4, incite rebellion. and yes, every quest the GM had to jump through loops to make the outcome of almost guaranteed coercion checks he made actually interesting instead of just having success everywhere he goes. I honestly feel like you're trying to misunderstand/misrepresent me here and there is no point in further explaining myself. good luck to you too

5 minutes ago, Magnus Arcanus said:

For what it is worth throwing "two opponents into one" requires use of the autofire rules. That is, you need enough pips to move both of the objects (which is 1 pip for base use, 1 pip for magnitude, and 1 pip for silhouette increase) being thrown, and then you increase the difficulty by one and need a success and at least two advantage/triumph to have them both hit. And it is 10 damage for each hit plus successes, minus soak against the targeted opponent. Still pretty good damage if both hit, but also highly probably a high WT rival or nemesis could eat that damage and be fine.

Certainly not trying to patronizing here, just hoping to share some relevant rules on the topic at hand.

yes I actually just realized this use of autofire when hearing the podcast. definitely atleast some ceiling to the power, ty!

24 minutes ago, Shizuya said:

yes I actually just realized this use of autofire when hearing the podcast. definitely atleast some ceiling to the power, ty!

Also dont forget to apply adversary, defense and cover as well. all of the difficulty increases for ranged attacks apply excluding range and the worse difficulty is what is used. So if they are picking up a rival to through at a nemesis use the more difficult difficulty.

39 minutes ago, Shizuya said:

I never said that the GM shouldnt use narrative to react to players and situations lol.

But you did seem to support the notion when someone else said it.

43 minutes ago, Shizuya said:

I would rule the same for crit but it hasnt ever been a problem in our campaign. I was the crit guy but I never oneshot any nemesis, also its entirely luck based (d100).

If you're properly statting your important NPCs, whether or not they're hit by the Hurl is also entirely luck based.

45 minutes ago, Shizuya said:

you are intentionally not reacting to any of the scenarios with move I presented, with per RAW up to 200 damage in a roll.

They're all hypotheticals that you've never had happen (nor anyone else that I've ever seen purport), and are very very difficult to make happen (if they're at all possible, I don't care to check your math).

Why should I react to something so meaningless?

I honestly do hope that whatever solution you decide to try works for you.

I just like to advocate for RAW, because between that and the narrative - the native elements of the game that everyone can know and have available no matter where they go/who they play with - you don't need anything else. And a common understanding of that consistency is what I believe to be best for the community, as that is what creates the community.

42 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Also dont forget to apply adversary, defense and cover as well. all of the difficulty increases for ranged attacks apply excluding range and the worse difficulty is what is used. So if they are picking up a rival to through at a nemesis use the more difficult difficulty.

yes I know that too but even with adversary and defense it's honestly way too easy to throw a humanoid from short to extreme range (base difficulty 1P), that's the issue I have with it.

10 minutes ago, emsquared said:

If you're properly statting your important NPCs, whether or not they're hit by the Hurl is also entirely luck based.

They're all hypotheticals that you've never had happen (nor anyone else that I've ever seen purport), and are very very difficult to make happen (if they're at all possible, I don't care to check your math).

Why should I react to something so meaningless?

well of course this game is luck based, maybe I expressed myself badly. what I mean is even with lethal blows 3 and 3 crit activations (crit+20) you still need a one out of 100 roll to fall one point short of oneshotting an opponent.
and yes you are right the example I gave is completely over the top and supremely unlikely but it is by RAW possible, which was the only point to it.

13 minutes ago, emsquared said:

I honestly do hope that whatever solution you decide to try works for you.

I just like to advocate for RAW, because between that and the narrative - the native elements of the game that everyone can know and have available no matter where they go/who they play with - you don't need anything else. And a common understanding of that consistency is what I believe to be best for the community, as that is what creates the community.

I honestly appreciate your insight and I do get your point. but I originally wrote in this thread to ask about melee weapons as hurled objects - for which you gave a satisfying answer, yet we have been discussing the entire day about whether or not I should houserule move.^^

I still think it will be the better option for my particular group and I might allow exceptions sometimes but as a bread and butter attack I find it annoying for both the narrative and the mechanics of the game if one PC constantly lets the opponents crash into one another. that would be a cool move once in a while but it just got old within these 4 sessions and it will only get worse. I also understand that it sounds like a very minor issue to outsiders but it greatly affects the mood at the table, that's all. the biggest issue like I said is I think it is just way too easy. hurling mercenaries around the battlefield in up to extreme range with a base difficulty of 1 doesnt sit well with me. it's easier than pretty much any other combat check.

that being said I want to thank everyone for responding and I'll see myself out

Start handing out conflict for that because that is some darkside behavior. Do we see jedi tossing people into each other? No we dont. They slam them into walls not each other. Think about it. He is using the quick and easy path. What does Yoda say about that?

If the PC has only one Strength Upgrade he's limited to Silhouette 0 and 1 target and spending more Force Pips won't change this. The only way to use move on bigger targets, Silhouette 2+, is by buying more Strength Upgrades.

It's the same for Range. You can only increase the Range band by buying Range Upgrades and never by spending Force Pips.

From what is described the PC isn't advanced enough in the Move Force Power to really abuse it if the GM remember to use RAW.

19 minutes ago, WolfRider said:

If the PC has only one Strength Upgrade he's limited to Silhouette 0 and 1 target and spending more Force Pips won't change this. The only way to use move on bigger targets, Silhouette 2+, is by buying more Strength Upgrades.

It's the same for Range. You can only increase the Range band by buying Range Upgrades and never by spending Force Pips.

From what is described the PC isn't advanced enough in the Move Force Power to really abuse it if the GM remember to use RAW.

Incorrect. you can spend force pips on the strength upgrade multiple times. Says so right in the strength upgrade. Range can only be have pips spent on it once. Also says so right in the Range upgrade.

1 minute ago, Daeglan said:

Incorrect. you can spend force pips on the strength upgrade multiple times. Says so right in the strength upgrade. Range can only be have pips spent on it once. Also says so right in the Range upgrade.

But you must buy Strength Upgrade to spend Force Pips to increase the silhouette. With only one Strength Upgrade you're limited to Silhouette 1 and spending more Force Pips won't change that, by RAW.

I was wrong for the Range Upgrade. You need to spend 1 Force Pips by Range Upgrade bought to increase the range band.

4 minutes ago, WolfRider said:

But you must buy Strength Upgrade to spend Force Pips to increase the silhouette. With only one Strength Upgrade you're limited to Silhouette 1 and spending more Force Pips won't change that, by RAW.

I was wrong for the Range Upgrade. You need to spend 1 Force Pips by Range Upgrade bought to increase the range band.

incorrect. with one strength upgrade you can spend 1 pip to lift a silhouette 1 object. you can spend 2 pips to lift a sihouette 2 object for a total of 3 pips to do so. a total of 4 pips to lift a silhouette 4 object. Now if you buy 2 strength upgrades you can spend a force pip to lift up to silhouette 2. but if you spend 2 pips you can lift up to sihouette 4 3 pips for sinhouette 6. That is what it means by can be spent multiple times.

The text for the Strength Upgrade in the Move Power chart says :

"Spend Force Pips to increase silhouette able to be targetted equal to the Strength upgrades purchased".

Since english is a foreign language for me, I asked my english wife if it really meant what I thought it meant. And for her it means exactly what I wrote before. If you want to read it differently feel free to do so but don't pull the same shenanigans on me you did on @Tramp Graphics in the Armour thread,by telling me I'm wrong or incorrect when I'm not by RAW. Because my only answer will be two words starting by Fuc and ending by k Off.

14 minutes ago, WolfRider said:

The text for the Strength Upgrade in the Move Power chart says :

"Spend Force Pips to increase silhouette able to be targetted equal to the Strength upgrades purchased".

Since english is a foreign language for me, I asked my english wife if it really meant what I thought it meant. And for her it means exactly what I wrote before. If you want to read it differently feel free to do so but don't pull the same shenanigans on me you did on @Tramp Graphics in the Armour thread,by telling me I'm wrong or incorrect when I'm not by RAW. Because my only answer will be two words starting by Fuc and ending by k Off.

read the long description. It says the user may activate this upgrade multiple times.

11 minutes ago, WolfRider said:

The text for the Strength Upgrade in the Move Power chart says :

"Spend Force Pips to increase silhouette able to be targetted equal to the Strength upgrades purchased".

Since english is a foreign language for me, I asked my english wife if it really meant what I thought it meant. And for her it means exactly what I wrote before. If you want to read it differently feel free to do so but don't pull the same shenanigans on me you did on @Tramp Graphics in the Armour thread,by telling me I'm wrong or incorrect when I'm not by RAW. Because my only answer will be two words starting by Fuc and ending by k Off.

Strength upgrade 1 doesn't let you affect silhouette 1 objects. It lets you increase the size of the objectsyou can affect by +1. And if you put 5 pips into that you can affect a silhouette 5 object.

I agree that it is completely silly the way it is written. Throwing a Super Star Destroyer or even a Death Star wouldn't be that hard if you have bought all the strength upgrades.

50 minutes ago, micheldebruyn said:

Strength upgrade 1 doesn't let you affect silhouette 1 objects. It lets you increase the size of the objectsyou can affect by +1. And if you put 5 pips into that you can affect a silhouette 5 object.

I agree that it is completely silly the way it is written. Throwing a Super Star Destroyer or even a Death Star wouldn't be that hard if you have bought all the strength upgrades.

Except where are you throwing the Death Star from or to?

Planetary Ranges add A LOT of pip requirwments. So many in fact, given that Extreme Personal is Short Planetary (right? that's off the top of my head...), that you're not ever gonna do anything meaningful to the Death Star, or even probably a Destroyer.

1 hour ago, emsquared said:

Except where are you throwing the Death Star from or to?

Planetary Ranges add A LOT of pip requirwments. So many in fact, given that Extreme Personal is Short Planetary (right? that's off the top of my head...), that you're not ever gonna do anything meaningful to the Death Star, or even probably a Destroyer.

Then why explicitly put it in the rules that it is pathetically easy to throw around objects of 10+silhouette? What good does that do? Have things multiply is never a good idea when writing RPG rules.

51 minutes ago, micheldebruyn said:

Then why explicitly put it in the rules that it is pathetically easy to throw around objects of 10+silhouette? What good does that do? Have things multiply is never a good idea when writing RPG rules.

except it isnt pathetically easy think about it you need a pip for every every multiple of 4 silhouette increases. that means to throw a +10 object you need at least 3 pips. then you are gonna need at least 3 pips so now we are looking at 6 pips. to do that with any reliability you need a force rating of 4 and more like 5 if you want to avoid dark side pips. but then in order to do it at all you still need to make an impossible discipline check... which by raw you can't actually do.

56 minutes ago, micheldebruyn said:

Then why explicitly put it in the rules that it is pathetically easy to throw around objects of 10+silhouette? What good does that do? Have things multiply is never a good idea when writing RPG rules.

See I think the question then becomes: Why claim it's broken, or house rule it, when you can't actually do anything broken with it in practice?

41 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

except it isnt pathetically easy think about it you need a pip for every every multiple of 4 silhouette increases. that means to throw a +10 object you need at least 3 pips. then you are gonna need at least 3 pips so now we are looking at 6 pips. to do that with any reliability you need a force rating of 4 and more like 5 if you want to avoid dark side pips. but then in order to do it at all you still need to make an impossible discipline check... which by raw you can't actually do.

- You don't need to do it reliably. You just need to do it once.

- You don't even need to make an attack roll or use hurl to do collosal damage with this to tone and how the universe works, as well as cause a lot of loss of life. Just slowly wave it around a bit...

- Characters prone to do this consider conflict a bonus.

- Buildings are Silhouette 3+ objects that can commonly be found at very close ranges.

It's a bad rule that mostly relies on players being grown up enough to not abuse it.

22 minutes ago, micheldebruyn said:

- You don't need to do it reliably. You just need to do it once.

- You don't even need to make an attack roll or use hurl to do collosal damage with this to tone and how the universe works, as well as cause a lot of loss of life. Just slowly wave it around a bit...

- Characters prone to do this consider conflict a bonus.

- Buildings are Silhouette 3+ objects that can commonly be found at very close ranges.

It's a bad rule that mostly relies on players being grown up enough to not abuse it.

to what purpose? why would you move the deathstar around if you arent going to hurl it

Also building are more likley to be silhouette 5+ a hovel might be sil 3. bhaving been around fighter jets they are smaller than you think. a room might be sil 3.