14 minutes ago, killerbeardhawk said:

That's the GM job is to put you in difficult situations, where choices are hard and emotions run high.

I wish my group had emotions. They are a bunch of soulless bastards. I mean who gets given a FREE [sweet, kind, if not damaged and needy] maintenance droid with intimate plans of the ship your currently trying to escape AND even helps you do so as long as you will be it's friend, only to be later loaded up with Detonite and used as a stealth mine. Soulless I tell ya!

4 minutes ago, killerbeardhawk said:

At least like 10 conflict for that kind of inaction, maybe more. Being prideful and blaming it on the will of the force? Extra 20 conflict.

No. Willful inaction would be not even attempting the Force dice roll to get the Force Points of any type to use a Force power.

And once again, there is a difference between making a hard choice and an essentially impossible one. Forcing a player to choose between either using the Dark Side, or a person falling to their death falls into the latter . And that is not something player or character can be punished for if they don't give in to the Dark Side. There is always another answer.

3 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

No. Willful inaction would be not even attempting the Force dice roll to get the Force Points of any type to use a Force power.

Inaction is binary: "Could I have reasonably done more to help this person, yes or no?"

Suffering 1-3 Conflict to help someone is quite reasonable. The odds are your Morality will actually INCREASE at the end of the session. Refusing to do so because you're more concerned with a slightly higher Morality score than saving their lives smacks of arrogance and hubris.

Let me put it another way that might make a little more sense:

Say you're playing this game with your best friend, and this is the first RPG he's ever played. He's really enjoying it so far, and has really grown attached to his character. He's spent several days coming up with a great back story, and you've gamed countless times, making him more and more attached. Then it all comes down to one roll. He's about to die, and it's up to your character to save him. You make the roll, and it turns up all Dark Side pips.

You've promised yourself that your character would never use the Dark Side. He's pure. And now here it is, your best friend's character's life in your hands. All you have to do is flip that Destiny Point and take a small bit of conflict, and you'll have saved that character's life. Your friend with be extremely grateful, who cares if you used the Dark Side just this one time? It was for a good cause! But no. You let that character die.

Your friend is heart broken and decides to call it an early night. He's lost his passion for this game, now that you've willingly let his character die when you had an opportunity to save him. Wouldn't you feel a bit guilty? A tiny bit... conflicted? I know I would. I'd say that's definitely worth some Conflict.

Now picture that in-game. Your character, who is presumably quite close to this other character, reached out to the Force to save his friend, then realized he was acting out of emotion and stopped himself. Just watched his best friend die in front of him so that he didn't have to live with the fact that he acted out of emotion once. How guilty would you feel for just willingly letting your friend die for your own selfish reasons? If you'd only been a little more willing to interact with your emotions, he would still be alive.

You should totally get Conflict in these cases. Conflict doesn't just come from using the Dark Side, and sometimes Conflict from other sources can lead you down the Dark Side faster than using the Dark Side itself. The Conflict that you would have gained from saving your friend would have been negligible, and likely not even enough to lower your Morality at the end of the game. The Conflict that you gain for letting your best friend's character die? That might end up sticking around.

4 minutes ago, Benjan Meruna said:

You'll also notice that Luke used the Dark Side explicitly at least once in the trilogy, yet that wasn't the end of the world.

If you're referring to his little bit of Bind against the Gammorians, that's not necessarily Dark Side use (under older systems it might have been, but not in this system). It's simply using the base power, with the movement upgrade to move them aside and immobilize them, possibly (but not necessarily) with the strain upgrade added. If you're referring to his giving in to his anger in his battle with Vader, Luke came very close to going over when he did so. So, yes, it very nearly was the "end of the world" so to speak.

The thing single thing that redeemed Anakin was his love for his children. His emotion was what fueled his final moments.

3 minutes ago, Underachiever599 said:

Let me put it another way that might make a little more sense:

Say you're playing this game with your best friend, and this is the first RPG he's ever played. He's really enjoying it so far, and has really grown attached to his character. He's spent several days coming up with a great back story, and you've gamed countless times, making him more and more attached. Then it all comes down to one roll. He's about to die, and it's up to your character to save him. You make the roll, and it turns up all Dark Side pips.

You've promised yourself that your character would never use the Dark Side. He's pure. And now here it is, your best friend's character's life in your hands. All you have to do is flip that Destiny Point and take a small bit of conflict, and you'll have saved that character's life. Your friend with be extremely grateful, who cares if you used the Dark Side just this one time? It was for a good cause! But no. You let that character die.

Your friend is heart broken and decides to call it an early night. He's lost his passion for this game, now that you've willingly let his character die when you had an opportunity to save him. Wouldn't you feel a bit guilty? A tiny bit... conflicted? I know I would. I'd say that's definitely worth some Conflict.

Now picture that in-game. Your character, who is presumably quite close to this other character, reached out to the Force to save his friend, then realized he was acting out of emotion and stopped himself. Just watched his best friend die in front of him so that he didn't have to live with the fact that he acted out of emotion once. How guilty would you feel for just willingly letting your friend die for your own selfish reasons? If you'd only been a little more willing to interact with your emotions, he would still be alive.

You should totally get Conflict in these cases. Conflict doesn't just come from using the Dark Side, and sometimes Conflict from other sources can lead you down the Dark Side faster than using the Dark Side itself. The Conflict that you would have gained from saving your friend would have been negligible, and likely not even enough to lower your Morality at the end of the game. The Conflict that you gain for letting your best friend's character die? That might end up sticking around.

Look, I get the situation you're painting, My point is that it is a situation that a character would and should never be put into. And secondly, there is always another option. One such option is to actually spend a Destiny Point to create that other option, instead of flipping it to use Dark Side points.

Just now, Tramp Graphics said:

If you're referring to his little bit of Bind against the Gammorians, that's not necessarily Dark Side use (under older systems it might have been, but not in this system). It's simply using the base power, with the movement upgrade to move them aside and immobilize them, possibly (but not necessarily) with the strain upgrade added. If you're referring to his giving in to his anger in his battle with Vader, Luke came very close to going over when he did so. So, yes, it very nearly was the "end of the world" so to speak.

I'm referring to his assault on Vader in the throne room, yes. And like it said, it WASN'T the end of the world. Using the Dark side doesn't HAVE to mean you fall instantly, forever. Luke used the Dark Side towards a noble goal (defeating a Dark Lord of the Sith) and came out all the stronger and more surefooted in the Light for it. In fact, without that skilled assault that disable Vader, Luke might have continued hiding, been found eventually and killed or disabled.

You might even call his brief flirtation wit hthe Dark Side....the Will of the Force

3 minutes ago, Richardbuxton said:

The thing single thing that redeemed Anakin was his love for his children. His emotion was what fueled his final moments.

Except that love is not a negative emotion. It is of the Light. Jealousy is of the Dark.

Just now, Tramp Graphics said:

Look, I get the situation you're painting, My point is that it is a situation that a character would and should never be put into. And secondly, there is always another option. One such option is to actually spend a Destiny Point to create that other option, instead of flipping it to use Dark Side points.

It's actually a fairly common situation to be put into during combat situations. I'm a veteran gamer, have been doing it for years, and you'd be shocked at how often things have come down to a single instance of "Act fast or someone dies."

And as others have mentioned, once you've made your decision and made that roll (in this case, turned up all Dark Side pips), you're stuck with it. That was your one action. Therefore, you're out of options. The only option left would be whether or not to spend the Destiny Point to use those pips, or to let your friend die.

1 minute ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Except that love is not a negative emotion. It is of the Light. Jealousy is of the Dark.

There's no such thing as "negative emotions" as far as the Force is concerned. The Jedi Code states that "There is no emotion, there is peace." So any emotion, even "positive" emotions, are technically acting out of the Dark Side.

3 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Except that love is not a negative emotion. It is of the Light. Jealousy is of the Dark.

The Light side does not encompass love and personal attachment to family. Impersonal compassion, yes. Love, no. That's what led to the fall of the Jedi in the first place: in their dogmatic approach to denying the Dark Side, they also denied some of the very things that make us human. it led to some very emotionally damaged individuals who would rather let friends and comrades die than act to save them, much like Korath.

Luke only succeeded when he defied Yoda and Obi-Wan's advice.

Just now, Benjan Meruna said:

I'm referring to his assault on Vader in the throne room, yes. And like it said, it WASN'T the end of the world. Using the Dark side doesn't HAVE to mean you fall instantly, forever. Luke used the Dark Side towards a noble goal (defeating a Dark Lord of the Sith) and came out all the stronger and more surefooted in the Light for it. In fact, without that skilled assault that disable Vader, Luke might have continued hiding, been found eventually and killed or disabled.

You might even call his brief flirtation wit hthe Dark Side....the Will of the Force

I never said that it did. What I said is that giving in to that temptation to use the Dark Side is still allowing it to have a hold over you. That is not the same as completely falling to it. Now, we can go back and forth about whether Luke Luke could have defeated Vader without giving in to the Dark Side, however briefly. However, when you look at that scene, Luke obviously is extremely shaken by how close he came to falling over the edge.

2 minutes ago, Underachiever599 said:

It's actually a fairly common situation to be put into during combat situations. I'm a veteran gamer, have been doing it for years, and you'd be shocked at how often things have come down to a single instance of "Act fast or someone dies."

And as others have mentioned, once you've made your decision and made that roll (in this case, turned up all Dark Side pips), you're stuck with it. That was your one action. Therefore, you're out of options. The only option left would be whether or not to spend the Destiny Point to use those pips, or to let your friend die.

It's often referred to as the trial of flesh!

1 minute ago, Richardbuxton said:

It's often referred to as the trial of flesh!

Bingo! That was exactly what I had in mind.

2 minutes ago, Underachiever599 said:

It's actually a fairly common situation to be put into during combat situations. I'm a veteran gamer, have been doing it for years, and you'd be shocked at how often things have come down to a single instance of "Act fast or someone dies."

And as others have mentioned, once you've made your decision and made that roll (in this case, turned up all Dark Side pips), you're stuck with it. That was your one action. Therefore, you're out of options. The only option left would be whether or not to spend the Destiny Point to use those pips, or to let your friend die.

I've been gaming for over thirty years. And, no, the choice of using DSPs or letting a friend die is not the only option left. There is still the option of using a Destiny Point to introduce something to save the other character from death. a Deus Ex Machina, if you will. There is always another way.

1 minute ago, Tramp Graphics said:

I've been gaming for over thirty years. And, no, the choice of using DSPs or letting a friend die is not the only option left. There is still the option of using a Destiny Point to introduce something to save the other character from death. a Deus Ex Machina, if you will. There is always another way.

I would never allow a Destiny point to be spent to make the session more boring. Difficult choices are interesting. If you can't handle them, stick to writing your powerwank fanfiction in the corner.

1 minute ago, Richardbuxton said:

It's often referred to as the trial of flesh!

Yes,the Trial of the Flesh, where giving in to the Dark Side, or potentially sacrificing something (or someone) close to you determine succes or failure of said trial. It's gone over, rather extensively in Nexus of Power . And the "passing" of said trial is not giving in to the Dark Side.

Just now, Benjan Meruna said:

I would never allow a Destiny point to be spent to make the session more boring. Difficult choices are interesting. if you can't handle them, stick to writing your powerwank fanfiction in the corner.

Yes, difficult choices are more interesting, but impossible ones are not.

1 minute ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Yes, difficult choices are more interesting, but impossible ones are not.

Neither are one note, two dimensional characters. If there's zero consequences to your actions.... then why are you playing? Just write it, because that's clearly what you'd rather do.

14 minutes ago, Underachiever599 said:

There's no such thing as "negative emotions" as far as the Force is concerned. The Jedi Code states that "There is no emotion, there is peace." So any emotion, even "positive" emotions, are technically acting out of the Dark Side.

Hold on. Why do you go by the Jedi Code to define what is dark side-y? The Jedi - personified by Yoda and Obi-Wan - are explicitly wrong in their dogmatic view of emotions. Luke proving them wrong is half the point of Return of the Jedi. Never mind the prequels showing their dogma contributing to their downfall. When you act out of love and compassion, you aren't acting from the dark side at all. That's just not what the movies show.

I still didn't see you @Tramp Graphics actually respond to my large polite post about the D10 roll actually representing you character giving into the dark side. Did you have an opinion on that or not?

3 minutes ago, Dunefarble said:

Neither are one note, two dimensional characters. If there's zero consequences to your actions.... then why are you playing? Just write it, because that's clearly what you'd rather do.

No one is talking about their being "zero consequences" for any character's actions, And Korath isn't a "one note" character. He's simply a very disciplined one, who has had friends die, including his Master, who was murdered by a Dark Jedi . My only point is that giving in to the Dark Side no matter the reason is never the better option . There is always another solution. The player simply has to find it or come up with it. And to punish a player or his character for not giving in to the Dark Side, however briefly, or for whatever "good intention" there may be is also never appropriate. That is what I'm saying.

36 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Look, I get the situation you're painting, My point is that it is a situation that a character would and should never be put into. And secondly, there is always another option. One such option is to actually spend a Destiny Point to create that other option, instead of flipping it to use Dark Side points.

Here is some NARRATIVE 101 for y'all...

Playing "to a character" doesn't mean always having a strict code of rules that can NEVER be broken. Those types of characters are known as FLAT - immutable and very two dimensional. ROUND characters are dynamic and RESPOND to the situation accordingly. The question you have to answer is: am I part of this adventure or am I just behaving like another NPC (with a character sheet)?

The problem you face is that NO character is immune from choices, of which the Dark Side represents one side. If a character is "good" and believes that helping people is the right thing to do, that is a clear code or guideline. Saying that you "don't use dark side points/pips" is not. Playing to your character's code should never be framed in terms of game mechanics (e.g. won't use the dark side pips or Conflict mechanic) as the character cannot tell what will and won't draw a dark side pips or conflict. In a narrative game like this you're responding to the dice roles, which affect the situation.

If you're good character was trying to save a life, which is their code, and mechanically fails to roll enough white pips to activate a Force power, the decision is whether to "exploit the mechanic (don't use dark side pips)" vs "play to the character (use the pips and save the life)". The mechanics are there to add to the tension of the narrative and allow the characters to develop organically instead of remaining FLAT, two dimensional caricatures.

However, if you want to play a character, which is FLAT and behaves like an NPC, then don't be surprised if the group responds to that by ditching you at the next Starport.

TL:DR: a character cannot frame their motivation in terms of game mechanics alone.

4 minutes ago, Underachiever599 said:

Let me put it another way that might make a little more sense:

Say you're playing this game with your best friend, and this is the first RPG he's ever played. He's really enjoying it so far, and has really grown attached to his character. He's spent several days coming up with a great back story, and you've gamed countless times, making him more and more attached. Then it all comes down to one roll. He's about to die, and it's up to your character to save him. You make the roll, and it turns up all Dark Side pips.

You've promised yourself that your character would never use the Dark Side. He's pure. And now here it is, your best friend's character's life in your hands. All you have to do is flip that Destiny Point and take a small bit of conflict, and you'll have saved that character's life. Your friend with be extremely grateful, who cares if you used the Dark Side just this one time? It was for a good cause! But no. You let that character die.

Your friend is heart broken and decides to call it an early night. He's lost his passion for this game, now that you've willingly let his character die when you had an opportunity to save him. Wouldn't you feel a bit guilty? A tiny bit... conflicted? I know I would. I'd say that's definitely worth some Conflict.

Now picture that in-game. Your character, who is presumably quite close to this other character, reached out to the Force to save his friend, then realized he was acting out of emotion and stopped himself. Just watched his best friend die in front of him so that he didn't have to live with the fact that he acted out of emotion once. How guilty would you feel for just willingly letting your friend die for your own selfish reasons? If you'd only been a little more willing to interact with your emotions, he would still be alive.

You should totally get Conflict in these cases. Conflict doesn't just come from using the Dark Side, and sometimes Conflict from other sources can lead you down the Dark Side faster than using the Dark Side itself. The Conflict that you would have gained from saving your friend would have been negligible, and likely not even enough to lower your Morality at the end of the game. The Conflict that you gain for letting your best friend's character die? That might end up sticking around.

That basically describes "Duty to Rescue", which is in several forms of real life law in different degrees. Also, it should be noted that those who are force users are held to a high standard, especially if they are "Jedi", as their entire purpose is to serve & protect.

2 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Except that love is not a negative emotion. It is of the Light. Jealousy is of the Dark.

The Jedi way is to suppress all emotion, as most forms of love interfere with the Jedi way of not being attached or possessive, etc... The only form of love they would encourage is compassion for everyone, a general selfless love, which would allow them to hold precious life in the galaxy & motivate them to do whatever they could to preserve all life if it's in their power.

We have no canon evidence that the Jedi way was different during the galactic republic than it was in the old republic and there is no jedi order as of right now in the canon... Considering the title of the new film coming in December, it's very likely there won't be a reformed Jedi order.

That being said, I agree that love is a positive emotion but it does not fit in with the Jedi way of life as we know it.

Just now, Tramp Graphics said:

Yes, difficult choices are more interesting, but impossible ones are not.

There is no such thing as an "impossible" choice, unless your free will is removed from the equation and at that point, it is not a choice. The proposed scenarios are a choice: use your power to save someone or don't.