4 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

No, the specific scenarios being suggested that will force a player to have to use DSPs.

Let me generalize the scenario for you, then:

You need to use the Force to save a life. A friend, an innocent, even a surrendered enemy. It doesn't matter. Neither does how: Moving a friend out of a pit. Staggering an enemy about to attack with Bind. Using Misdirect make the illusions of fire to get speeders to stop before going over a washed out bridge. The possibilities are endless.

You roll all Dark side pips. On three die, the odds of this are ~25%. That's 1 in 4 times, so if this kind of situation comes up even just five times in a campaign, odds are it will happen to Korath.

There is nothing more arrogant than to assume you'll never have to make a tough call. That's why "The Dark Side has no hold over me" as a motto is pure pride: it has a hold over everyone. What's heroic is overcoming it and not falling despite it's influence.

2 minutes ago, Benjan Meruna said:

Let me generalize the scenario for you, then:

You need to use the Force to save a life. A friend, an innocent, even a surrendered enemy. It doesn't matter. Neither does how: Moving a friend out of a pit. Staggering an enemy about to attack with Bind. Using Misdirect make the illusions of fire to get speeders to stop before going over a washed out bridge. The possibilities are endless.

You roll all Dark side pips. On three die, the odds of this are ~25%. That's 1 in 4 times, so if this kind of situation comes up even just five times in a campaign, odds are it will happen to Korath.

There is nothing more arrogant than to assume you'll never have to make a tough call. That's why "The Dark Side has no hold over me" as a motto is pure pride: it has a hold over everyone. What's heroic is overcoming it and not falling despite it's influence.

There is never an instance where your only option is to call upon the Dark Side. There is always another way. The tough call is finding that other way . The easy way is to give in and use the Dark Side. That is the seduction.

Just now, Tramp Graphics said:

There is never an instance where your only option is to call upon the Dark Side. There is always another way.

No, there isn't. Sometimes, you have to choose between bad, and less bad.

As a side note, the Clone Wars dedicated an entire episode to Yoda meeting the Force Priestess's and admitting that there was darkness within himself. Do you really imagine Korath to be more light side than Yoda?

I think it's silly to think that there will never be a situation where your party is counting on you to come through, you use an action to activate a Force power, and you roll all black pips. There might be another way, but not for that action! And that action might well mean the difference between life and death, as they sometimes do.

3 minutes ago, awayputurwpn said:

I think it's silly to think that there will never be a situation where your party is counting on you to come through, you use an action to activate a Force power, and you roll all black pips. There might be another way, but not for that action! And that action might well mean the difference between life and death, as they sometimes do.

Didn't even account for that! When you choose to use the Force for your Action, you are officially Out Of Ways: either you activate the power and save them or you don't and don't, one of the few times things are binary under this dice system. Gee, I wonder if it was intentional?

4 minutes ago, Benjan Meruna said:

No, there isn't. Sometimes, you have to choose between bad, and less bad.

As a side note, the Clone Wars dedicated an entire episode to Yoda meeting the Force Priestess's and admitting that there was darkness within himself. Do you really imagine Korath to be more light side than Yoda?

Having darkness within oneself and giving in to that darkness are two different things.

4 minutes ago, awayputurwpn said:

I think it's silly to think that there will never be a situation where your party is counting on you to come through, you use an action to activate a Force power, and you roll all black pips. There might be another way, but not for that action! And that action might well mean the difference between life and death, as they sometimes do.

Yes, even for that action, there is always another way. Regardless, we're getting off topic now.

1 minute ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Having darkness within oneself and giving in to that darkness are two different things.

Yes, even for that action, there is always another way.

1. Well, no s***. Something "having hold over you" doesn't mean you've surrendered to it entirely, just that it's there tempting you and occasionally giving you a hard choice.

2. And what would that be? You've already chosen your Action for the round, remember. At this point, you either get the power off with a DP flip, strain and Conflict, or you don't do it and the next turn the Bad Thing that was going to happen happens, when you could have stopped it if you were a little less dogmatic and a little more concerned with the well-being of others.

15 minutes ago, Benjan Meruna said:

2. And what would that be? You've already chosen your Action for the round, remember. At this point, you either get the power off with a DP flip, strain and Conflict, or you don't do it and the next turn the Bad Thing that was going to happen happens, when you could have stopped it if you were a little less dogmatic and a little more concerned with the well-being of others.

I would also be interested in hearing what the "other way" might be, once you've rolled those dice and they come up all black.

And also, we've been off topic for the vast majority of the thread Just sayin...

19 minutes ago, Benjan Meruna said:

1. Well, no s***. Something "having hold over you" doesn't mean you've surrendered to it entirely, just that it's there tempting you and occasionally giving you a hard choice.

2. And what would that be? You've already chosen your Action for the round, remember. At this point, you either get the power off with a DP flip, strain and Conflict, or you don't do it and the next turn the Bad Thing that was going to happen happens, when you could have stopped it if you were a little less dogmatic and a little more concerned with the well-being of others.

1. No . The Dark Side being there tempting you does not equate to it having a hold over you. Giving in to that temptation, no matter what the reasoning, is allowing it to have a hold over you.

2. No. It simply means you failed in the action you intended. Simply put, you cannot force a character to call upon the Dark Side, nor can you punish him for not giving in to the Dark Side.

As Yoda said, "Do or do not. There is no try." You either succeed or you fail.

1 minute ago, Tramp Graphics said:

2. No. It simply means you failed in the action you intended. Simply put, you cannot force a character to call upon the Dark Side, nor can you punish him for not giving in to the Dark Side.

It actually means you chose to fail on a check you could have succeeded on.

4 minutes ago, awayputurwpn said:

It actually means you chose to fail on a check you could have succeeded on.

No. It simply means you did not succeed. No matter the situation, there is never a time when a player must call upon the Dark Side. And it is never the "lesser of two evils". And a GM should never punish a character for not calling upon the Dark Side.

LOL

4 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

1. No . The Dark Side being there tempting you does not equate to it having a hold over you. Giving in to that temptation, no matter what the reasoning, is allowing it to have a hold over you.

2. No. It simply means you failed in the action you intended. Simply put, you cannot force a character to call upon the Dark Side, nor can you punish him for not giving in to the Dark Side.

In your infant knowledge of this system you continue to fail to understand even its most basic parts. Dark Side Pips are not "using the dark side".

There is no discussing that point, it is a fact.

The DSP represent the raw emotional connection to the Force, whether that be fear, hatred, etc. The LSP represent the harmony and balance used to connect to the Force. This is why everyone can use both sides.

Even a light side character using protect to block a dark side users lightning, may be fearful of his opponent and need to use that fear to properly block the lightning. Same for a dark sides lightning, he maybe didn't have enough hatred and need to calmly channel the force through him.

11 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

1. No . The Dark Side being there tempting you does not equate to it having a hold over you. Giving in to that temptation, no matter what the reasoning, is allowing it to have a hold over you.

All a hold means is influence. The Dark Side influences everyone, but that doesn't mean they give in to it.

Quote

No. It simply means you did not succeed.

A check you do not succeed on is one you don't roll enough Force pips (of either side) to activate. That is failure that you have no control over.

You DO have the option to use DSPs, however. TO not use them is inaction, inaction causes Conflict as per RAW.

2 minutes ago, killerbeardhawk said:

13 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

1. No . The Dark Side being there tempting you does not equate to it having a hold over you. Giving in to that temptation, no matter what the reasoning, is allowing it to have a hold over you.

2. No. It simply means you failed in the action you intended. Simply put, you cannot force a character to call upon the Dark Side, nor can you punish him for not giving in to the Dark Side.

In your infant knowledge of this system you continue to fail to understand even its most basic parts. Dark Side Pips are not "using the dark side".

See what religion does to people...?

Where's the love, folks?

6 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

No. It simply means you did not succeed. No matter the situation, there is never a time when a player must call upon the Dark Side. And it is never the "lesser of two evils". And a GM should never punish a character for not calling upon the Dark Side.

That's the GM job is to put you in difficult situations, where choices are hard and emotions run high.

If you only want games that don't challenge you, you have chosen the wrong system to generate a 1800 xp character (which you never actually played) and tell everyone who plays it they are wrong about even the smallest details.

1 minute ago, killerbeardhawk said:

In your infant knowledge of this system you continue to fail to understand even its most basic parts. Dark Side Pips are not "using the dark side".

There is no discussing that point, it is a fact.

The DSP represent the raw emotional connection to the Force, whether that be fear, hatred, etc. The LSP represent the harmony and balance used to connect to the Force. This is why everyone can use both sides.

Even a light side character using protect to block a dark side users lightning, may be fearful of his opponent and need to use that fear to properly block the lightning. Same for a dark sides lightning, he maybe didn't have enough hatred and need to calmly channel the force through him.

Yes, they are. That's what giving in to your emotions is. When you give in to raw emotion, you are giving in to the Dark Side. That's why they're called Dark Side Force Points. The book consistently refers to the black pips as Dark Side results, which is why they earn a character Conflict for using them. Every time you use a DSP, you give in a little more to the Dark Side , earning Conflict along the way, tempting you to the Dark Side . This is also why Dark Side Force users must use DSPs unless they flip a DP and suffer Strain, and why redemption is so hard for them.

11 minutes ago, Benjan Meruna said:

All a hold means is influence. The Dark Side influences everyone, but that doesn't mean they give in to it.

A check you do not succeed on is one you don't roll enough Force pips (of either side) to activate. That is failure that you have no control over.

You DO have the option to use DSPs, however. TO not use them is inaction, inaction causes Conflict as per RAW.

No. To not use them is to not give in to the Dark Side. It is not inaction. And as a GM I would not fault a player nor his character for failing because he could not call upon the Light in order to succeed. That's where the Will of the Force comes in.

Also, there is the option of actually spending a Destiny Point to actually provide a solution, instead of flipping one to use a DSP.

Just now, Tramp Graphics said:

No. To not use them is to not give in to the Dark Side. It is not inaction. And as a GM I would not fault a player nor his character for failing because he could not call upon the Light in order to succeed. That's where the Will of the Force comes in.

Oh, so you can just let anyone you want die because it's the Will of the Force, is it? Remarkably convenient, that will of the Force.

No, choosing not to use DSP to save someone is making a choice not to save them when you could have. It is willful inaction, and any GM running the system will dock you the Conflict for it.

You can even frame is in the same light that Tramp is, and you get the same result:

"You reach out to the Force, but recoil at the dark emotions which cloud your judgement. The next thing you know, Pax is falling, falling. You watch in horror as your friend plummets to his death. You knew you had the power to save him, but you didn't, and that decision may well haunt you for the rest of your life."

+Conflict.

2 minutes ago, Benjan Meruna said:

Oh, so you can just let anyone you want die because it's the Will of the Force, is it? Remarkably convenient, that will of the Force.

No, choosing not to use DSP to save someone is making a choice not to save them when you could have. It is willful inaction, and any GM running the system will dock you the Conflict for it.

At least like 10 conflict for that kind of inaction, maybe more. Being prideful and blaming it on the will of the force? Extra 20 conflict.

1 minute ago, Benjan Meruna said:

Oh, so you can just let anyone you want die because it's the Will of the Force, is it? Remarkably convenient, that will of the Force.

No, choosing not to use DSP to save someone is making a choice not to save them when you could have. It is willful inaction, and any GM running the system will dock you the Conflict for it.

No, it isn't. When Luke asks Yoda, "How Will I know the good side from the bad?", Yoda responds, " You will know. When you're calm, passive ." Any time you use your raw emotions, it is giving in to the Dark Side.

Just now, killerbeardhawk said:

At least like 10 conflict for that kind of inaction, maybe more. Being prideful and blaming it on the will of the force? Extra 20 conflict.

Okay, that's a little punitive...

Hey Tramp, earning Conflict is not giving into the dark side. It's the Morality roll at the end of each session that represents you resisting the lure of darkness. You have a view on Conflict that a lot of new players to this system have and I will refuse to judge you on that. It's a very hard lesson to unlearn and until you dig deeply into the Mechanics of Conflict through play it's actually rather hard to visualise.

From a meta standpoint a D10 has an average roll of 5.5, if you earn less than that each session then your character is probably a really good person. If they earn around that amount or slightly higher then they are kinda neutral. If they consistently exceeded roughly 7 then those people will fall. Now it is possible to fall very quickly, a few selfish murders and you're on your way, but it's also intentionally hard to not gain a single point.

if you look at most Force Powers they have a sweet spot of around 4 Force Points to activate a complex power. FR3 is highly likely to roll 4 Force Points, but a DS point is likely. So you have to make a decision about how effective the power is going to be.

Just now, Tramp Graphics said:

No, it isn't. When Luke asks Yoda, "How Will I know the good side from the bad?", Yoda responds, " You will know. When you're calm, passive ." Any time you use your raw emotions, it is giving in to the Dark Side.

You'll also notice that Luke used the Dark Side explicitly at least once in the trilogy, yet that wasn't the end of the world.