There I agree with you Tramp: the utility of Move's basic power (even with strength/magnitude upgrades) is largely situational, and doesn't have obvious tactical benefits in battle aside from moving stuff long distances, or possibly causing a long drop it can be more useful depending the situation.

If you just want to move an enemy a short distance and avoid causing damage for some reason, you're generally better off using Bind, since it has a host of control options that can simulate a "Force stun" or even "Malacia" effect even for the non-dark siders.

No Tramp your not better with Bind. Using Bind to avoid causing damage requires 2 Light Side Force Points at a minimum. Using basic Move on the other hand only requires any 2 Force Points. If Range and Magnitude is also required it increases the difference significantly. It takes a heck of a Force Rating to reliably roll 4 Light Side Points, but 4 of any is fairly reliable with only 3 Dice.

Bind is second best option.

Although with Bind, you only need 1 LS point to affect a human-sized target. Move requires 2 points. Unless you're trying to disarm or something like that.

But that if you roll all dark pips with Bind, you're doing the choke thing

So it's a mixed bag.

16 minutes ago, Richardbuxton said:

No Tramp your not better with Bind. Using Bind to avoid causing damage requires 2 Light Side Force Points at a minimum. Using basic Move on the other hand only requires any 2 Force Points. If Range and Magnitude is also required it increases the difference significantly. It takes a heck of a Force Rating to reliably roll 4 Light Side Points, but 4 of any is fairly reliable with only 3 Dice.

Bind is second best option.

That's not really an issue if your character would almost never use DSPs anyway.

10 minutes ago, awayputurwpn said:

Although with Bind, you only need 1 LS point to affect a human-sized target. Move requires 2 points. Unless you're trying to disarm or something like that.

But that if you roll all dark pips with Bind, you're doing the choke thing

So it's a mixed bag.

Exactly, and if you have other upgrades, you can do other things instead of potentially killing the target (such as staggering him with the Mastery upgrade, if you have it) or simply causing Strain.

1 hour ago, StarkJunior said:

My GM said I can use Hurl to not do damage.

1 hour ago, Tramp Graphics said:

That's his prerogative, but it;'s certainly not RAW, nor, I would suspect, RAI.

That would be in the realm of Advantage/Triumph on a combat check (standard option, using the check to disable instead of damage), or possibly of taking a maneuver to aim and incurring two setbacks. So it's definitely possible, but also the dice need to fall your way or you might end up causing more damage than you intended.

5 hours ago, awayputurwpn said:

That would be in the realm of Advantage/Triumph on a combat check (standard option, using the check to disable instead of damage), or possibly of taking a maneuver to aim and incurring two setbacks. So it's definitely possible, but also the dice need to fall your way or you might end up causing more damage than you intended.

Aye I would agree; a check with a lot of advantage/triumph might allow for narrative adjustments to the power, but the player in doing so would have to give up a little personal control for negative things that may happen; instead of merely stopping a person, they crush them with a heavy handed use of the force.

9 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

That's not really an issue if your character would almost never use DSPs anyway.

This isn't Saga or WEG. The entire system is designed to allow a small amount of using the dark side. Again this is something that only becomes obvious with experience. The Conflict system is specifically designed to give you that little bit of wiggle room.

13 hours ago, Richardbuxton said:

This isn't Saga or WEG. The entire system is designed to allow a small amount of using the dark side. Again this is something that only becomes obvious with experience. The Conflict system is specifically designed to give you that little bit of wiggle room.

I know that. That does not mean that a character can't still choose to not give in to even that small bit of "temptation".

And for the record, I refused to even touch Saga edition with a ten foot pole.

1 hour ago, Tramp Graphics said:

I know that. That does not mean that a character can't still choose to not give in to even that small bit of "temptation".

That could be an interesting way to play a dogmatic "Jedi" character.

1 minute ago, awayputurwpn said:

That could be an interesting way to play a dogmatic "Jedi" character.

While not "dogmatic" in the Prequel era sense, My character Korath is exceptionally devoted to the Light Side. The quote I used for his original D6 sheet pretty much bore that out. "The Dark Side has no hold over me."

4 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

"The Dark Side has no hold over me."

Pride goes before the fall.

Sounds like a perfect candidate for Conflict due to knowing inaction!

"Before you roll, this person means a lot to you, their death could have far reaching ramifications on your characters future"

... Player rolls dice, gets 3 DS and 1 LS, doesn't use the DS ...

"You could have allowed your emotions to effect you, you could have used that dark side Point, you could have saved your friend from death... but no, your concrete belief in separating emotions from the Force has led to the death of one of your most trusted allies. Your dearest friends stand by watching them fall hundreds of metres to their death, knowing you had the power within you to save them, those looks on their faces will justify your decision until your dying days... please add 8 Conflict to your session tally."

"But that makes my tally 12 for the session, that means I have no chance but to fall to the dark side at the end of the session, this isn't supposed to be a bad character"

"tell that to the Jedi council and their reluctance to act"

Ok so that's rather dramatic and realistically the player knows full well before that point what's going on. But the purpose was to highlight that using DS points is not the only way to fall in this system. There simply is no way to avoid Conflict in this system, it's all about damage limitation. Suffering a single point to avoid 5 is a win.

On 2/9/2017 at 7:29 PM, Tramp Graphics said:

Not at all. All I said is that it is not the first thing I think of when the terms Force Push and Force Pull are used, unlike other people. the way I picture it, when you "Hurl" something or someone, it is more a matter of a picking up something (or someone) and throwing or slamming it/him/her at someone, not so much pushing or shoving. Now, by the rules, yes, that is considered a use of Force Push , just as much as Bind's movement upgrade is, but it is not what I think of when the terms Force Push and Force Pull are used.

In this system there is NO force push, force pull, force slam or any other force abilities other than those listed in the force powers section of the core rules book.

Thinking of the force in these terms is not in the nature of this system. You ONLY have Move, Bind, etc. Thinking of force abilities like they are in videogames, movies, comics, or other RPG systems will only confuse a new player like yourself. I would recommend unlearning what you know about the force and only learn from what powers you have available. If you don't believe a force power can do as they say, that is why you fail at learning the new system.

18 hours ago, Stan Fresh said:

Pride goes before the fall.

It wasn't a statement of pride, just his personal philosophy, and discipline. The guy was raised from infancy by a Star Dragon Jedi Master.

18 hours ago, Richardbuxton said:

Sounds like a perfect candidate for Conflict due to knowing inaction!

"Before you roll, this person means a lot to you, their death could have far reaching ramifications on your characters future"

... Player rolls dice, gets 3 DS and 1 LS, doesn't use the DS ...

"You could have allowed your emotions to effect you, you could have used that dark side Point, you could have saved your friend from death... but no, your concrete belief in separating emotions from the Force has led to the death of one of your most trusted allies. Your dearest friends stand by watching them fall hundreds of metres to their death, knowing you had the power within you to save them, those looks on their faces will justify your decision until your dying days... please add 8 Conflict to your session tally."

"But that makes my tally 12 for the session, that means I have no chance but to fall to the dark side at the end of the session, this isn't supposed to be a bad character"

"tell that to the Jedi council and their reluctance to act"

Ok so that's rather dramatic and realistically the player knows full well before that point what's going on. But the purpose was to highlight that using DS points is not the only way to fall in this system. There simply is no way to avoid Conflict in this system, it's all about damage limitation. Suffering a single point to avoid 5 is a win.

Well, given that he has a FR of 3, that's really not a likely scenario. Besides, there are other things you can do to in those situations. Also, to use Bind simply to immobilize someone (and this is what could be used to catch someone from falling off of a cliff, instead of Move, if you so choose, as suggested in the sidebar) only costs one FP, not two, and doesn't do any damage (unless you're using a DSP). So, even in your scenario, I could still save that person using only the one LSP.

4 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Well, given that he has a FR of 3, that's really not a likely scenario. Besides, there are other things you can do to in those situations. Also, to use Bind simply to immobilize someone (and this is what could be used to catch someone from falling off of a cliff, instead of Move, if you so choose, as suggested in the sidebar) only costs one FP, not two, and doesn't do any damage (unless you're using a DSP). So, even in your scenario, I could still save that person using only the one LSP.

Unless there are two of them or medium range.

22 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Well, given that he has a FR of 3, that's really not a likely scenario. Besides, there are other things you can do to in those situations. Also, to use Bind simply to immobilize someone (and this is what could be used to catch someone from falling off of a cliff, instead of Move, if you so choose, as suggested in the sidebar) only costs one FP, not two, and doesn't do any damage (unless you're using a DSP). So, even in your scenario, I could still save that person using only the one LSP.

Odds of getting a dark side result on a single die is about 60%. The odds of getting all dark side results on 3 die is about 25%, which is hardly a small chance.

2 minutes ago, Benjan Meruna said:

Odds of getting a dark side result on a single die is about 60%. The odds of getting all dark side results on 3 die is about 25%, which is hardly a small chance.

Exactly my point. I have a 75% chance of getting multiple light side points. The higher the FR, the higher the chance of LSPs rolled.

Just now, Tramp Graphics said:

Exactly my point. I have a 75% chance of getting multiple light side points. The higher the FR, the higher the chance of LSPs rolled.

And what happens what you roll the other 25%?

Or when your one point short because the GM says just holding your friend in place is not enough, you need to move them toward you. You will always need more Tramp, always.

1 minute ago, Richardbuxton said:

Or when your one point short because the GM says just holding your friend in place is not enough, you need to move them toward you. You will always need more Tramp, always.

Yeah, I could see a situation where the GM says that while the distance between you is just barely Short, the distance needed to travel vertically up to you AND horizontally to get safely over the ground is Medium.

And if you roll darkside you kill them with darkside pips but with move you dont...you really are seriously stuck on using Bind for a purpose it is not intended. Also Bind requires minimum force rating 2.

57 minutes ago, Richardbuxton said:

Or when your one point short because the GM says just holding your friend in place is not enough, you need to move them toward you. You will always need more Tramp, always.

That's when you commit a Force Die, then roll to use Move with the Fine manipulation upgrade to send a rope down to him.

1 hour ago, Benjan Meruna said:

And what happens what you roll the other 25%?

54 minutes ago, Benjan Meruna said:

Yeah, I could see a situation where the GM says that while the distance between you is just barely Short, the distance needed to travel vertically up to you AND horizontally to get safely over the ground is Medium.

As I said, there are work-arounds, but regardless, we're getting into some ridiculous scenarios now. In most cases, this wouldn't be a problem.

42 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

And if you roll darkside you kill them with darkside pips but with move you dont...you really are seriously stuck on using Bind for a purpose it is not intended. Also Bind requires minimum force rating 2.

Technically, it's not using Bind for a purpose it wasn't intended. The Sidebar on page 287 bears this out. The same with Bind's movement upgrade as Force Push . That upgrade, as written, was definitely intended to fill that role.

2 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

As I said, there are work-arounds, but regardless, we're getting into some ridiculous scenarios now. In most cases, this wouldn't be a problem.

It's ridiculous that a situation with 25% probability might come up over the course of a campaign?

3 minutes ago, Benjan Meruna said:

It's ridiculous that a situation with 25% probability might come up over the course of a campaign?

No, the specific scenarios being suggested that will force a player to have to use DSPs.