2 minutes ago, Dunefarble said:

Or like you hurl something to the ground... maybe? Just possibly?

Technically, you don't "hurl" something or someone into the ground, you slam it into the ground. (hence the wrestling term bodyslam .)

2 minutes ago, Benjan Meruna said:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Force_push

No, Force Pushing harder doesn't magically make it not a Force Push, Tramp.

That statement makes no sense.

18 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Except that Force Push and Force Pull aren't simply moving people around. It is how they are moved around....: a hard, abrupt thrust or yank which propels the target at high speed , usually knocking them down, potentially stunning (staggering) them in the process, but not actually doing any actual damage. That, to me is Force Push and Force Pull , And, that is what the Bind Movement upgrade does exactly as written .

You are implying that pushing harder (i.e., hard enough to do damage) somehow makes it not a Force Push, but a "Force Slam" (a term you pretty much just pulled out of your behind). I'm pointing out that the wook specifically says that Force Push covers a very wide range of intensities of movement.

11 minutes ago, Benjan Meruna said:

You are implying that pushing harder (i.e., hard enough to do damage) somehow makes it not a Force Push, but a "Force Slam" (a term you pretty much just pulled out of your behind). I'm pointing out that the wook specifically says that Force Push covers a very wide range of intensities of movement.

Not at all. All I said is that it is not the first thing I think of when the terms Force Push and Force Pull are used, unlike other people. the way I picture it, when you "Hurl" something or someone, it is more a matter of a picking up something (or someone) and throwing or slamming it/him/her at someone, not so much pushing or shoving. Now, by the rules, yes, that is considered a use of Force Push , just as much as Bind's movement upgrade is, but it is not what I think of when the terms Force Push and Force Pull are used.

So this entire thread hasn't been talking about what Force Push/Pull actually are, but what the mighty Tramp thinks they should be.

I want a refund.

1 minute ago, Benjan Meruna said:

So this entire thread hasn't been talking about what Force Push/Pull actually are, but what the mighty Tramp thinks they should be.

I want a refund.

Lol! This^

2 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

And in the Jedi Academy games, Force Push and Force Pull don't do any damage at all. They just shove hapless tagrets back (and flat on their backs), or yank them forward (and on their faces), but don't hurt them at all , unless you push them off of a cliff to their deaths.

As someone who still plays that game, you're not right about that at all. It's pretty weak at first, but you can kill with Force Push...I've done it quite a bit. Not sure what your point is referencing that game...but it's not a valid reference.

4 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Move has its own baggage, namely the "primary" Force Push people think about is Hurl , which is a ranged attack that always causes wounds. And, as for "bypassing" the immobilization effect, I've already covered that above. Remember, Palpatine was down in a tangled heap for more than a minute. I'd consider that "immobilized". And even when used on "friendlies" as Kanan does with Sabine to throw her over the spiders, and later on his team to get them over the chasm, in both instances, they each had to spend time recovering; Sabine in particular since she was left hanging over a cliff, having almost fallen over it, and his allies on Geonosis each had to regain their balance from their rather rough landings, which also took some time (no maneuvers). This is because, in both instances, they were simply propelled with the Force to give them an extra boost to clear the needed distances, not a controlled levitation, which would be the hallmark of Move's base power.

Secondly , Bind only causes wounds if you want it to . Bind can instead simply immobilize or Stagger (using the Mastery upgrade). This is what we see when Kylo Ren Force Pushes Rey. She was not wounded (so no Hurl), but she was staggered , and immobilized , meaning she could not use maneuvers nor actions until her next turn. And, given that Kylo would have used DSPs to activate the power (being a Dark Sider and all), this means a Critical Injury roll +10 to get the " Stunned " effect on the Crit table.

As far as the "Range Bands" are concerned. It's still not "too slow" since it is an immediate effect. Yes, you're "only" moving the target one range band, but considering that it often requires two maneuvers to move one range band, and Bind's movement upgrade does it virtually instantaneously, I wouldn't call that too slow. "Too slow" to me is the walking speed Sam Stewart has said Move's base power moves at. besides, Force Push and Force Pull have never really been about pushing or pulling people super great distances. They've only ever been used for pushes and pulls measured in ranges of less than a hundred meters or so, often less than ten meters or so; certainly not hundreds or thousands of meters. So really, there is no real precedent for Force Push or Force Pull hurling someone from one extreme range band to another (such as Engaged to Extreme or vice versa) Thus, there is no need for it exceeding one range band of movement.

And as for those four quotes. Those aren't the only ones. Those were just the first of them from the first nine pages. There were many others, but would you really want to spend hours going through every page for every post? If not, then don't ask me to do so, especially given that I'm using a public library computer to post, so time is limited. You guys asked for quotes, I provided a fair sampling of them.

And even now, after I posted that response from Sam Stewart, Daeglan is still claiming that only Move can be used for Force Push and Force Pull .

Dude learn to read. Cause I NEVER said that. I said it can do it. But is a poor method to do it. There is a world of difference between saying it can't and saying it is not that good for it.

3 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Well, Move's hurl upgrade specifically only deals wound damage . It doesn't disorient nor stagger the target. It's strictly a ranged attack for wound damage. That's it. Also, the Bind movement upgrade actually is rather " abrupt " and forceful, yanking them forward, as Kylo Ren does to that hapless First Order officer, or propelling Rey back and only staggering her, but not actually wounding her . And in the Jedi Academy games, Force Push and Force Pull don't do any damage at all. They just shove hapless tagrets back (and flat on their backs), or yank them forward (and on their faces), but don't hurt them at all , unless you push them off of a cliff to their deaths. There is nothing "gentle" about it , even when used to propel an ally across a chasm or over a mass of dangerous predators. However Move's base power, as written, is specifically slow and deliberate. It is very controlled . It is very gentle, hence why I don't feel that the base Move power is a very good emulation of a non- ranged attack Force Push or Force Pull . It's too slow and gentle. "Can" you use it as such? Sure. However, in my not so humble opinion, it's not really appropriate , given how we see Force Push and Force Pull used in canon, even when not used to hurl opponents into each other to cause damage.

And, ultimately, that is the first thing that comes to my mind when I think of Force Push and Force Pull . I don't think of hurling victims into each other. That's not Force Push or Force Pull to me. That's a Force Slam . When I think fo Force Push or Force Pull, I think of shoving them several meters away or pulling them to me from several meters at relatively high speed, sending them sprawling in a tangled heap. That, to me is Force Push and Force Pull , and that is what Bind's movement upgrade specifically emulates perfectly, as written . It's a sudden and immediate propelling of a target (or group of targets if you have the magnitude upgrades) at relatively high speed, that narratively, leaves them in a tangled heap (and thus unable to use maneuvers), but not necessarily hurt.

Hurl only causes damage if you hurl someone into an object. There is nothing about the control update that requires you to throw a person into an object.

Its also a ranged attack which means you get advantages and advantages along with triumphs can be used to replicate some of those things.

On 2/9/2017 at 9:47 PM, whafrog said:

As someone who still plays that game, you're not right about that at all. It's pretty weak at first, but you can kill with Force Push...I've done it quite a bit. Not sure what your point is referencing that game...but it's not a valid reference.

Yes, you can, if you push someone off of a cliff. The push itself, however, just pushes them back and down. Now, the Force Grip power, can be used to slam people against walls and such while strangling them. That will kill them every time.

On 2/9/2017 at 11:10 PM, Daeglan said:

Dude learn to read. Cause I NEVER said that. I said it can do it. But is a poor method to do it. There is a world of difference between saying it can't and saying it is not that good for it.

You missed my point entirely. My point is that Move's hurl upgrade always causes wound damage while Bind only causes wound damage if you choose to do so by using Dark Side points.

On 2/9/2017 at 11:13 PM, Daeglan said:

Hurl only causes damage if you hurl someone into an object. There is nothing about the control update that requires you to throw a person into an object.

The Move hurl upgrade is a r anged attack, which causes 10 time the silhouette of the thrown object (or person) to both the object (or person) thrown and target hit, and that is the only thing it can be used for. Therefore, Hurl always causes wound damage, specifically from the impact of the object (or person) thrown against the target hit. So yes, you do have to target someone (or something) to actually hit with whatever (or whoever) you intend to throw when using Move's Hurl upgrade. That is how the upgrade specifically works.

Wall, Floor, Space Ship, AT-At, Com Dish, Box, Railing are all targets you can push someone into.

Bonus the damage inflicted probably won't break them either. Double bonus 10 points of damage is unlikely to actually kill someone.

In theory you can even hurl them into Air. I know its kinda like attacking the darkness, but Air is a viable target and has a nearly infinite pool of HP.

Then again last week I did Pull 6 jet packs into the ground from medium range...

3 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Yes, you can, if you push someone off of a cliff. The push itself, however, just pushes them back and down. Now, the Force Grip power, can be used to slam people against walls and such while strangling them. That will kill them every time.

No, you can push them into walls, they die after about the third push. Again, no idea what point you're making referencing a video game...

No the hurl upgrade does not always cause damage. It only causes damage if the object being hurled hits another object. If i hurl someone 3 range bands and do not have them hit something no damage.

1 minute ago, Daeglan said:

No the hurl upgrade does not always cause damage. It only causes damage if the object being hurled hits another object. If i hurl someone 3 range bands and do not have them hit something no damage.

More to the point; If you attempt to Hurl multiple targets, but don't roll enough Advantage you can still Move them, with enough Force Points.

Basicly the situation you describe is choosing to use the basic force power instead of the control upgrade, which you can do even after rolling the dice.

27 minutes ago, Richardbuxton said:

More to the point; If you attempt to Hurl multiple targets, but don't roll enough Advantage you can still Move them, with enough Force Points.

Basicly the situation you describe is choosing to use the basic force power instead of the control upgrade, which you can do even after rolling the dice.

I'm not sure the rule allow for this exactly, but that's how I'd run it, too.

3 hours ago, Richardbuxton said:

More to the point; If you attempt to Hurl multiple targets, but don't roll enough Advantage you can still Move them, with enough Force Points.

Basicly the situation you describe is choosing to use the basic force power instead of the control upgrade, which you can do even after rolling the dice.

My point is hurl allows you to move someone fast enough they take damage if they hit something. Nothing says your target has to be an object. It could be a specific point in 3 dimensional space. If you don't hit an object you are not going to do damage. But you still move at that high speed. But Tramp is so rigid in his reading of the rules he assumes everything is super literal like D&D. This is not D&D. It is narrative.the rules are ,eat to support the narrative.

4 hours ago, Daeglan said:

My point is hurl allows you to move someone fast enough they take damage if they hit something. Nothing says your target has to be an object. It could be a specific point in 3 dimensional space. If you don't hit an object you are not going to do damage. But you still move at that high speed. But Tramp is so rigid in his reading of the rules he assumes everything is super literal like D&D. This is not D&D. It is narrative.the rules are ,eat to support the narrative.

Oh I absolutely agree, we are arguing the same point. I'm just saying you don't have to use the Hurl upgrade and target "the air" to throw someone. It's still Force Push if you just use the basic power, all that changes is your description. What I was trying to add is that I think you can Force Push a bunch of people and only hurt some of them.

Hurling someone into a high ceiling (or against the upper portions of a wall) so they take damage on the way up and again when they fall down is loads of fun...but not for the schmuck that gets tossed.

20 hours ago, whafrog said:

No, you can push them into walls, they die after about the third push. Again, no idea what point you're making referencing a video game...

Yeah, that't the Force Grip throw around.

20 hours ago, whafrog said:

16 hours ago, Daeglan said:

No the hurl upgrade does not always cause damage. It only causes damage if the object being hurled hits another object. If i hurl someone 3 range bands and do not have them hit something no damage.

Yes, the Move hurl upgrade does always do damage. The Hurl upgrade specifically states that you hurl an object at a target as a ranged attack inflicting wound damage equal to the silhouette time ten. To quote:

Quote

Control Upgrade: The user gains the ability to move objects fast enough so as to be both difficult to dodge and deal damage to both the target and object being moved. The user makes a Force Power check and rolls a ranged attack as part of the pool . The attack's difficulty is equal to the silhouette of the object being thrown instead of the normal difficulty for ranged attacks and only succeeds if the user can spend enough FP to move the object. Slhouette 0 objects deal 5 damage, while other objects deal damage equal to ten times their silhouette...

So, yes, Hurl is always a ranged attack to hit a target and deal wound damage. There is no provision with Hurl to not deal wounds.

16 hours ago, Richardbuxton said:

More to the point; If you attempt to Hurl multiple targets, but don't roll enough Advantage you can still Move them, with enough Force Points.

Basicly the situation you describe is choosing to use the basic force power instead of the control upgrade, which you can do even after rolling the dice.

Exactly, but if you don't have the needed advantage, all you do is hit with one object, the others simply miss.

16 hours ago, awayputurwpn said:

I'm not sure the rule allow for this exactly, but that's how I'd run it, too.

13 hours ago, Daeglan said:

My point is hurl allows you to move someone fast enough they take damage if they hit something. Nothing says your target has to be an object. It could be a specific point in 3 dimensional space. If you don't hit an object you are not going to do damage. But you still move at that high speed. But Tramp is so rigid in his reading of the rules he assumes everything is super literal like D&D. This is not D&D. It is narrative.the rules are ,eat to support the narrative.

No, the target being hit by whatever (or whoever) is being thrown via Move's Hurl upgrade, has to be an solid object , usually a person . Because that is what that upgrade specifically does. It's a ranged attack against a physical target to cause impact damage. That is the whole point of the Hurl upgrade. If you simply want to shove someone over a distance or to a particular point in space, that is what the base move power or Bind's movement upgrade are for. Hurl is strictly a ranged attack to inflict wounds, by RAW.

16 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Yeah, that't the Force Grip throw around.

No, it ain't. I mean, Force Grip does that too, but Force Push also does damage.

You seem incapable of conceding any point at all.

21 minutes ago, whafrog said:

No, it ain't. I mean, Force Grip does that too, but Force Push also does damage.

You seem incapable of conceding any point at all.

That's not it at all. The Force Push and Force Pull powers were the ones I used a lot playing Jedi Academy in particular, and just using that, It never killed or did damage to anyone no matter how many times I pushed them, unless I was Force pushing them over a ledge. And once I hit the high levels, I tended to simply drag them into my lightsaber using the Force Pull , Swift style combo.

My GM said I can use Hurl to not do damage.

The question of whether the Move: Hurl upgrade can be used against "nothing" or "air," simply to move a target and not cause damage, is superfluous.

If all you want to do is move a target (push, pull, grip, etc), then all you need is the Move basic power and one Strength upgrade, plus the appropriate amount of Force points to activate them. You don't need the Hurl upgrade to do it in the first place.

If a PC uses the Move: Hurl upgrade against an enemy, then eventually he will take some form of damage, whether it's against the ground, a wall, or what have you. That would be my ruling as the GM. That is, as long as the Discipline check was successful

9 minutes ago, StarkJunior said:

My GM said I can use Hurl to not do damage.

That's his prerogative, but it;'s certainly not RAW, nor, I would suspect, RAI.

4 minutes ago, awayputurwpn said:

The question of whether the Move: Hurl upgrade can be used against "nothing" or "air," simply to move a target and not cause damage, is superfluous.

If all you want to do is move a target (push, pull, grip, etc), then all you need is the Move basic power and one Strength upgrade, plus the appropriate amount of Force points to activate them. You don't need the Hurl upgrade to do it in the first place.

If a PC uses the Move: Hurl upgrade against an enemy, then eventually he will take some form of damage, whether it's against the ground, a wall, or what have you. That would be my ruling as the GM. That is, as long as the Discipline check was successful

Exactly. Thus, if you're not trying to injure someone with a Force Push or Force Pull, you're better off with Bind's movement upgrade (which has other advantages) or (if you insist on using Move ) the base power.