Richard said that the Bind control power cannot be activated multiple times, which is correct, and therefore cannot be used to throw someone across a stadium, which is also correct. He never said it couldn't work as a Force Push/Pull over the single range band that it is allowed to cover, but only pointed out that it is limited in terms of distance. The rest of them seem to be pointing out that, in the context of doing damage via throwing someone around, you need to use the Hurl upgrade from the Move tree. Unless they actually are saying that you can't move someone a single range band closer or further with Bind, which I don't believe they are.

Edit: double posted

23 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Wel, let' see, Richard Buxton started with this:

Which is exactly the opposite of how Bind's movement upgrade works.

Shamblate said this:

(emphasis mine)

Marcus Arcanus said this:

(emphasis mine)

Daeglan said this:

(emphasis mine)

I could go on, but I think I've made my point. every one of these people has claimed that Bind is not Force Push and Force Pull , that they are only the perview of Move . Happy Daze has said similar things later on, as the debate progressed. And these are just from the first nine pages of the thread.

Bind is not force push or pull. The devs have said that is Move. You can move people with it.b but you also have to use the base power when you do. Per the Devs response to the question. So yeah move is push pull. Bind is force choke while moving. Ala Dooku choking Obi Wan and tossing him under the stairs. Why you insist on fighting about this I don't know.

4 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Bind is not force push or pull. The devs have said that is Move. You can move people with it.b but you also have to use the base power when you do. Per the Devs response to the question. So yeah move is push pull. Bind is force choke while moving. Ala Dooku choking Obi Wan and tossing him under the stairs. Why you insist on fighting about this I don't know.

As per Sam Stewart's most recent response specifically to my question, Both Move AND Bind can be used for Force Push and Force Pull . So no, Move is not the only method for emulating Force Push and Force Pull . Bind is as well. And Bind is not necessarily Force Choking either. Force Choking is using DSPs to inflict wound damage while using Bind . And, as I said, the "immobilization" effect can be narrated as several things, not necessarily frozen stiff.

8 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

As per Sam Stewart's most recent response specifically to my question, Both Move AND Bind can be used for Force Push and Force Pull . So no, Move is not the only method for emulating Force Push and Force Pull . Bind is as well. And Bind is not necessarily Force Choking either. Force Choking is using DSPs to inflict wound damage while using Bind . And, as I said, the "immobilization" effect can be narrated as several things, not necessarily frozen stiff.

Yeah so again Move is the better option. As you don't end up choking your target. Can you use bind? Sure. But not really the best way to do it. Move is more reliable and cheaper and has less risk more flexible less likely to cause problems. Only costs 2 or 3 force points to do what you want...

13 minutes ago, Benjan Meruna said:

Richard said that the Bind control power cannot be activated multiple times, which is correct, and therefore cannot be used to throw someone across a stadium, which is also correct. He never said it couldn't work as a Force Push/Pull over the single range band that it is allowed to cover, but only pointed out that it is limited in terms of distance. The rest of them seem to be pointing out that, in the context of doing damage via throwing someone around, you need to use the Hurl upgrade from the Move tree. Unless they actually are saying that you can't move someone a single range band closer or further with Bind, which I don't believe they are.

Actually, he did say in that first post from him I quoted that Bind's movement upgrade was too slow (which is actually the problem with Move's base power), likening it to Kylo carrying Rey onto his starship, which was actually him physically carrying her in his arms, not using the Force to carry her.

Richardbuxton's "too slow" was in the context of range bands.

Bind doesn't give us a traditional "Force push" the way we think of it. You must Immobilize the target. The immobilization lasts until your next turn. And "immobilized" means you can't take any maneuvers; therefore, you wouldn't be able to "stand up" (for example, like Palpatine does). Bind does allow for a push/pull effect, but only within the context of binding the character so he/she cannot take any maneuvers. Move allows for a simple push/pull to be affected without anything else going on. Simply put, Move is just more versatile than Bind when it comes to telekinetically moving your targets. Bind can push/pull a target just fine, but it comes with the immobilization effect—and wounds if you use any dark side pips—whereas Move doesn't have any of that baggage.

And at any rate, I'm not sure your list of Bind detractors counts as "most of us;" even if @Richardbuxton was saying that Bind can't be used to push people (which he wasn't), that's still just four people, two or three or whom (at least) have already conceded the point. And there were plenty more than 4 people involved the debate.

You also say that you weren't wrong, but all you've gotta do is search this thread for "too slow" and come up with several results where you argue that Move is too slow, which is wrong. And of course we all know that both you and I were both wrong about bypassing the Basic power of Bind to effect a simple "Force push" effect without an immobilization of the target (frankly, I'm happy to be wrong about that; it seemed weirdly convoluted to me).

Just now, Daeglan said:

Yeah so again Move is the better option. As you don't end up choking your target. Can you use bind? Sure. But not really the best way to do it. Move is more reliable and cheaper and has less risk more flexible less likely to cause problems. Only costs 2 or 3 force points to do what you want...

You only end up choking your target if you specifically choose to do so by spending DSPs to do so. Neither the base Bind power nor its movement upgrade inherently choke the target. Kylo Ren uses Bind numerous times in TFA and never uses it to choke his targets. He uses the power to immobilize them (Poe and Rey) and to pull them to him (the First Order officer) and push them away from him (Rey). Never once does he choke anyone with Bind . And whether or not Move or Bind is a "better" choice for Force Push or Force Pull is purely situational as well as personal opinion . Move is good particularly if you want to hurl a victim into other adversaries in order to inflict wounds. Bind is good if you simply want to push them away or pull them to you without necessarily injuring them. Both powers are viable options for Force Push and Force Pull , however. Move is not the only option. And that is what Sam Stewart said just today .

It seems like the application of labels is getting in the way here. When I think of Force Push and Pull, I think of something rather violent, with the potential to cause damage, or at least knock someone over, disorient them, etc. In other words, a barely controlled outward concussive force; or a violent yank to bring someone off balance. Given the mechanics, Move seems the most applicable for that, since it has a clear damage component.

Meanwhile, the scenes where somebody uses a "force grip" to bring someone closer, kicking and choking, seems mechanically more like how Bind works.

If you're just moving people around, use whatever you want, as Sam said, why would it matter? But I don't think that qualifies as what people usually think of when they think of Force Push or Pull.

6 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

And whether or not Move or Bind is a "better" choice for Force Push or Force Pull is purely situational as well as personal opinion . Move is good particularly if you want to hurl a victim into other adversaries in order to inflict wounds. Bind is good if you simply want to push them away or pull them to you without necessarily injuring them. Both powers are viable options for Force Push and Force Pull , however. Move is not the only option. And that is what Sam Stewart said just today .

Like Daeglan just said...cheaper, more reliable, more flexible. "Both are viable" does not mean "both are equal." If you want a simple push effect, Move is the clear winner. It's not personal opinion; it's just what is. But that doesn't mean Bind can't be used to push and pull. Especially when you want that "lock-down" effect rather than just a shove.

12 minutes ago, whafrog said:

It seems like the application of labels is getting in the way here. When I think of Force Push and Pull, I think of something rather violent, with the potential to cause damage, or at least knock someone over, disorient them, etc. In other words, a barely controlled outward concussive force; or a violent yank to bring someone off balance. Given the mechanics, Move seems the most applicable for that, since it has a clear damage component.

Meanwhile, the scenes where somebody uses a "force grip" to bring someone closer, kicking and choking, seems mechanically more like how Bind works.

If you're just moving people around, use whatever you want, as Sam said, why would it matter? But I don't think that qualifies as what people usually think of when they think of Force Push or Pull.

Pretty much this. The stuff we see kylo do is bind. The stuff we see Obi-Wan do to battle droids is move.

3 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Pretty much this. The stuff we see kylo do is bind. The stuff we see Obi-Wan do to battle droids is move.

Especially given the theme of Bind. It is obviously more powerful in the hands of a dark-sider, and thus could be more attractive to someone like Kylo Ren right off the bat; whereas a good little Jedi PC like Obi-Wan would have to invest lots of XP for it to be effective as a control power.

My statement still stands Bind is not Force push and pull. However as others have said it can push and pull people, but Move can move objects both quickly and slowly, hence why it is Force Push and Pull and Bind is Force Choke.

2 minutes ago, awayputurwpn said:

Especially given the theme of Bind. It is obviously more power in the hands of a dark-sider, and thus could be more attractive to someone like Kylo Ren right off the bat; whereas a good little Jedi PC like Obi-Wan would have to invest lots of XP for it to be effective as a control power.

In TCW during the Zygerrian arc, Obiwan lifts two commando droids and crushes them in mid air. That seems like an application of Bind, but they're just objects, so no conflict. He does it like it's no effort at all, so clearly he has the Bind power nailed.

I think a lot of the debate is the rather artificial breakdown of Force powers and (over) parsing their dominion. Necessary, of course, because it's a game, but hard to equate to what we see in the media where these boundaries are crossed all the time. The Jedi youngling caught by the Trandoshans clearly knew about Bind...or maybe it's just a thing you can do when you tap into the dark side. How that is translated in game terms is pretty difficult to quantify.

16 minutes ago, whafrog said:

In TCW during the Zygerrian arc, Obiwan lifts two commando droids and crushes them in mid air. That seems like an application of Bind, but they're just objects, so no conflict. He does it like it's no effort at all, so clearly he has the Bind power nailed.

I think a lot of the debate is the rather artificial breakdown of Force powers and (over) parsing their dominion. Necessary, of course, because it's a game, but hard to equate to what we see in the media where these boundaries are crossed all the time. The Jedi youngling caught by the Trandoshans clearly knew about Bind...or maybe it's just a thing you can do when you tap into the dark side. How that is translated in game terms is pretty difficult to quantify.

And he is force rating 3 or 4 at that point. As just getting force rating 2 in the phantom menace.

3 minutes ago, awayputurwpn said:

Richardbuxton's "too slow" was in the context of range bands.

Bind doesn't give us a traditional "Force push" the way we think of it. You must Immobilize the target. The immobilization lasts until your next turn. And "immobilized" means you can't take any maneuvers; therefore, you wouldn't be able to "stand up" (for example, like Palpatine does). Bind does allow for a push/pull effect, but only within the context of binding the character so he/she cannot take any maneuvers. Move allows for a simple push/pull to be affected without anything else going on. Simply put, Move is just more versatile than Bind when it comes to telekinetically moving your targets. Bind can push/pull a target just fine, but it comes with the immobilization effect—and wounds if you use any dark side pips—whereas Move doesn't have any of that baggage.

And at any rate, I'm not sure your list of Bind detractors counts as "most of us;" even if @Richardbuxton was saying that Bind can't be used to push people (which he wasn't), that's still just four people, two or three or whom (at least) have already conceded the point. And there were plenty more than 4 people involved the debate.

You also say that you weren't wrong, but all you've gotta do is search this thread for "too slow" and come up with several results where you argue that Move is too slow, which is wrong. And of course we all know that both you and I were both wrong about bypassing the Basic power of Bind to effect a simple "Force push" effect without an immobilization of the target (frankly, I'm happy to be wrong about that; it seemed weirdly convoluted to me).

Move has its own baggage, namely the "primary" Force Push people think about is Hurl , which is a ranged attack that always causes wounds. And, as for "bypassing" the immobilization effect, I've already covered that above. Remember, Palpatine was down in a tangled heap for more than a minute. I'd consider that "immobilized". And even when used on "friendlies" as Kanan does with Sabine to throw her over the spiders, and later on his team to get them over the chasm, in both instances, they each had to spend time recovering; Sabine in particular since she was left hanging over a cliff, having almost fallen over it, and his allies on Geonosis each had to regain their balance from their rather rough landings, which also took some time (no maneuvers). This is because, in both instances, they were simply propelled with the Force to give them an extra boost to clear the needed distances, not a controlled levitation, which would be the hallmark of Move's base power.

Secondly , Bind only causes wounds if you want it to . Bind can instead simply immobilize or Stagger (using the Mastery upgrade). This is what we see when Kylo Ren Force Pushes Rey. She was not wounded (so no Hurl), but she was staggered , and immobilized , meaning she could not use maneuvers nor actions until her next turn. And, given that Kylo would have used DSPs to activate the power (being a Dark Sider and all), this means a Critical Injury roll +10 to get the " Stunned " effect on the Crit table.

As far as the "Range Bands" are concerned. It's still not "too slow" since it is an immediate effect. Yes, you're "only" moving the target one range band, but considering that it often requires two maneuvers to move one range band, and Bind's movement upgrade does it virtually instantaneously, I wouldn't call that too slow. "Too slow" to me is the walking speed Sam Stewart has said Move's base power moves at. besides, Force Push and Force Pull have never really been about pushing or pulling people super great distances. They've only ever been used for pushes and pulls measured in ranges of less than a hundred meters or so, often less than ten meters or so; certainly not hundreds or thousands of meters. So really, there is no real precedent for Force Push or Force Pull hurling someone from one extreme range band to another (such as Engaged to Extreme or vice versa) Thus, there is no need for it exceeding one range band of movement.

And as for those four quotes. Those aren't the only ones. Those were just the first of them from the first nine pages. There were many others, but would you really want to spend hours going through every page for every post? If not, then don't ask me to do so, especially given that I'm using a public library computer to post, so time is limited. You guys asked for quotes, I provided a fair sampling of them.

And even now, after I posted that response from Sam Stewart, Daeglan is still claiming that only Move can be used for Force Push and Force Pull .

2 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

And even now, after I posted that response from Sam Stewart, Daeglan is still claiming that only Move can be used for Force Push and Force Pull .

It's because people view Force Push/Pull as being the same as moving something around with the Force, and you seem not to...

From what I can tell this thread is a bunch of people saying "Apples are fruit!" And a few people saying " No, bread is a starch! "

30 minutes ago, whafrog said:

It seems like the application of labels is getting in the way here. When I think of Force Push and Pull, I think of something rather violent, with the potential to cause damage, or at least knock someone over, disorient them, etc. In other words, a barely controlled outward concussive force; or a violent yank to bring someone off balance. Given the mechanics, Move seems the most applicable for that, since it has a clear damage component.

Meanwhile, the scenes where somebody uses a "force grip" to bring someone closer, kicking and choking, seems mechanically more like how Bind works.

If you're just moving people around, use whatever you want, as Sam said, why would it matter? But I don't think that qualifies as what people usually think of when they think of Force Push or Pull.

Well, Move's hurl upgrade specifically only deals wound damage . It doesn't disorient nor stagger the target. It's strictly a ranged attack for wound damage. That's it. Also, the Bind movement upgrade actually is rather " abrupt " and forceful, yanking them forward, as Kylo Ren does to that hapless First Order officer, or propelling Rey back and only staggering her, but not actually wounding her . And in the Jedi Academy games, Force Push and Force Pull don't do any damage at all. They just shove hapless tagrets back (and flat on their backs), or yank them forward (and on their faces), but don't hurt them at all , unless you push them off of a cliff to their deaths. There is nothing "gentle" about it , even when used to propel an ally across a chasm or over a mass of dangerous predators. However Move's base power, as written, is specifically slow and deliberate. It is very controlled . It is very gentle, hence why I don't feel that the base Move power is a very good emulation of a non- ranged attack Force Push or Force Pull . It's too slow and gentle. "Can" you use it as such? Sure. However, in my not so humble opinion, it's not really appropriate , given how we see Force Push and Force Pull used in canon, even when not used to hurl opponents into each other to cause damage.

And, ultimately, that is the first thing that comes to my mind when I think of Force Push and Force Pull . I don't think of hurling victims into each other. That's not Force Push or Force Pull to me. That's a Force Slam . When I think fo Force Push or Force Pull, I think of shoving them several meters away or pulling them to me from several meters at relatively high speed, sending them sprawling in a tangled heap. That, to me is Force Push and Force Pull , and that is what Bind's movement upgrade specifically emulates perfectly, as written . It's a sudden and immediate propelling of a target (or group of targets if you have the magnitude upgrades) at relatively high speed, that narratively, leaves them in a tangled heap (and thus unable to use maneuvers), but not necessarily hurt.

Just now, Tramp Graphics said:

And, ultimately, that is the first thing that comes to my mind when I think of Force Push and Force Pull . I don't think of hurling victims into each other. That's not Force Push or Force Pull to me. That's a Force Slam .

What in all of unholy hell is a Force Slam?

This isn't even "Bread is a starch!" anymore. This is "Apples and bread are both fruit , because I don't define fruit as the seed-bearing structure in flowering plants. Apples are more like seed -filled juice vehicles ."

17 minutes ago, Dunefarble said:

It's because people view Force Push/Pull as being the same as moving something around with the Force, and you seem not to...

From what I can tell this thread is a bunch of people saying "Apples are fruit!" And a few people saying " No, bread is a starch! "

Except that Force Push and Force Pull aren't simply moving people around. It is how they are moved around. As Whafrog said, many people only think of the Hurl upgrade of Move when they think of Force Push and Force Pull . I primarily think of what we see in Jedi Academy , and what we see Yoda do to Palpatine, or Kanan does to get his team across that chasm on Geonosis, or Kylo Ren does to that First Order officer when he yanks him off of his feet and into his grasp, or to Rey when he shoves her hard several meters back: a hard, abrupt thrust or yank which propels the target at high speed , usually knocking them down, potentially stunning (staggering) them in the process, but not actually doing any actual damage. That, to me is Force Push and Force Pull , And, that is what the Bind Movement upgrade does exactly as written .

3 minutes ago, Benjan Meruna said:

What in all of unholy hell is a Force Slam?

This isn't even "Bread is a starch!" anymore. This is "Apples and bread are both fruit , because I don't define fruit as the seed-bearing structure in flowering plants. Apples are more like seed -filled juice vehicles ."

Picking someone up and Slamming him/her into someone else hard with the Force. That is a Force "slam". I never said it was a "proper name". It's simply a literal description of an action.

1 minute ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Picking someone up and Slamming him/her into someone else hard with the Force. That is a Force "slam". I never said it was a "proper name". It's simply a literal description of an action.

Or... hurling them into someone else? Like you hurl a rock at someone.

3 minutes ago, Dunefarble said:

Or... hurling them into someone else? Like you hurl a rock at someone.

Pretty much. My point is that a "push" or "pull" with the Force isn't necessarily, nor likely, to cause any wound damage, even a hard shove or yank. A hurl or slam would, but not really a "push" or "pull". To me, pushing and pulling ar all about yanking them to you or shoving them away, potentially knocking them over, but not hurting them.

Or like you hurl something to the ground... maybe? Just possibly?

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Force_push

Quote

Force push was an ability of the Force that was used in an offensive or defensive manner. It could be used to varying degrees, from simply moving targets to causing serious injury.

No, Force Pushing harder doesn't magically make it not a Force Push, Tramp.