20 hours ago, Daeglan said:

Dude. bind does not say immediate. it says move one range increment. On your turn at about the same speed at you can move.

YEs, it does say immediate. Read the main text under Upgrades on page 286. It's the first Control upgrade listed. To quote:

Quote

Control Upgrade: Spend FP to immediately move the target one range band toward or away from the user. The Unser may not activated this multiple times.

18 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

Well, sounds like both Aterion's and Tramp's assertions on this topic have been pretty thoroughly shot down.

Not entirely true. IF you remember, I first said that for Bind, you did need to spend the FP on the base power even to use the upgrade, though you didn't need to explicitly immobilize the target when doing so. So the first part of my presumption was correct in that regard. The second part is still up in the air.

So, "the user may spend [FP] to do nothing"?

That is a complete rewrite of the rules, and actually has the side effect of making the Bind power way more powerful by allowing dark side users to cause more wounds than normal. But you do what you like to your game!

5 minutes ago, awayputurwpn said:

So, "the user may spend [FP] to do nothing"?

That is a complete rewrite of the rules, and actually has the side effect of making the Bind power way more powerful by allowing dark side users to cause more wounds than normal. But you do what you like to your game!

No. IT's more like the initial FP cost is the base cost required to activate the power in order to gain access to its upgrades. and then the Control upgrade changes how the power functions. That's the way I always understood it.

Eh...if a player really didn't want to do the immobilize effect and wanted to just waste a FP, I guess I wouldn't have a problem with it

11 minutes ago, awayputurwpn said:

Eh...if a player really didn't want to do the immobilize effect and wanted to just waste a FP, I guess I wouldn't have a problem with it

Well, the FP cost is no different than using Move and its hurl upgrade. The only difference is no wound damage.

20 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Well, the FP cost is no different than using Move and its hurl upgrade. The only difference is no wound damage.

Yeah, with the Strength upgrade, it'd be the same 2 FP cost to move a human-sized target within short range. Definitely not overpowered or anything, especially since Bind is harder to reach than Move.

7 minutes ago, awayputurwpn said:

Yeah, with the Strength upgrade, it'd be the same 2 FP cost to move a human-sized target within short range. Definitely not overpowered or anything, especially since Bind is harder to reach than Move.

Pretty much, just much faster.

The Move power attack is a ranged attack check with Auto-fire (with some special rules around this). The PC is well within the game rules to spend Advantage and Triumph for additional effects like spending 3+ Advantage or a Triumph to temporarily "stagger"/disable the target. A generous GM might even let the PC treat the Move power as having the Stun setting (or let them add the Stun setting for an Advantage or 2). This fits the rules and the narrative bent of the game as well as fitting the high-action swashbuckling feel of Star Wars.

Just now, Tramp Graphics said:

Pretty much, just much faster.

Caption: Now don't start that again (from Jungle Book).

5 minutes ago, Jedi Ronin said:

The Move power attack is a ranged attack check with Auto-fire (with some special rules around this). The PC is well within the game rules to spend Advantage and Triumph for additional effects like spending 3+ Advantage or a Triumph to temporarily "stagger"/disable the target. A generous GM might even let the PC treat the Move power as having the Stun setting (or let them add the Stun setting for an Advantage or 2). This fits the rules and the narrative bent of the game as well as fitting the high-action swashbuckling feel of Star Wars.

Yes, but the point is that it still always causes damage, which isn't always what you want. Sometimes you simply want to push someone away from you quickly, or pull them to you quickly, without actually injuring them (such as pushing them across a chasm quickly), or at most staggering them without causing any wound damage, and that's where Bind's movement upgrade comes in.

Okay, let's have no more rehashing of arguments please, Tramp. You already know most everyone here disagrees with you, and the dev answer about Bind has done nothing to change that.

It...is...a...narrative...system. It...is...not...intended...to...be...rigid...but...instead...be...flexible...to...allow...gms...and...players...to...have...freedom...in...how...they...narrate...the...action.

So if I use Move to take a target from close to extreme in one round it moves at walking speed? Is it speed walking? What if I treat my rounds as 6 seconds? Power still works the same but you're telling me it just saunters along? Personally I have always run the speed as whatever is thematically appropriate. Which I think is what the folks at FFG always were implying. I think, Tramp, you hold too fast to some words in the description and that the developers said in response to a question. The power, as they all are, are meant to be fluid and broadly useful.

26 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Yes, but the point is that it still always causes damage, which isn't always what you want. Sometimes you simply want to push someone away from you quickly, or pull them to you quickly, without actually injuring them (such as pushing them across a chasm quickly), or at most staggering them without causing any wound damage, and that's where Bind's movement upgrade comes in.

If you just want to move someone without doing Wound or Strain damage then you don't need the Move Control Upgrade hurl (ranged attack) - you just activate the basic power and any Upgrades you need to affect the target Sil, Range, etc (perhaps making an opposed Discipline check depending on the target).

Bind has a Control Upgrade that lets you accomplish basically the same thing.

The sidebar on the same page as Bind mentions the powers were designed with the intent to be used creatively by players and GMs should allow this (within reason) and even mentions using Move and/or Bind to stop another PC from a dangerous. There is some overlap here. Move can be used to move people around safely. So can Bind. Bind has an explicit option for staggering a target while someone using Move to attack will have to rely on the normal narrative check rules to try to pull of a similar effect (or the GM allowing the PC to attack with a Stun setting).

Both of these powers cover "telekinesis" and there's too much ground to cover to include all these effects into 1 "telekinesis" power. So we've got two, each with a different focus but with some overlap.

6 minutes ago, ghatt said:

It...is...a...narrative...system. It...is...not...intended...to...be...rigid...but...instead...be...flexible...to...allow...gms...and...players...to...have...freedom...in...how...they...narrate...the...action.

Yes, it is a narrative system, but there are still rules to it, including how certain powers and upgrades work. That's why different powers, and different upgrades have different effects. And the key effect the Move hurl upgrade has is that it is a ranged attack that inflicts wound damage.

3 minutes ago, Jedi Ronin said:

If you just want to move someone without doing Wound or Strain damage then you don't need the Move Control Upgrade (ranged attack) - you just activate the basic power and any Upgrades you need to affect the target Sil, Range, etc (perhaps making an opposed Discipline check depending on the target).

Bind has a Control Upgrade that lets you accomplish basically the same thing.

The sidebar on the same page as Bind mentions the powers were designed with the intent to be used creatively by players and GMs should allow this (within reason) and even mentions using Move and/or Bind to stop another PC from a dangerous. There is some overlap here. Move can be used to move people around safely. So can Bind. Bind has an explicit option for staggering a target while someone using Move to attack will have to rely on the normal narrative check rules to try to pull of a similar effect (or the GM allowing the PC to attack with a Stun setting).

Both of these powers cover "telekinesis" and there's too much ground to cover to include all these effects into 1 "telekinesis" power. So we've got two, each with a different focus but with some overlap.

Except that the Move base power is too slow for Force Push. The movement of the target takes the full round to accomplish as the target is slowly moved the given distance. With the Bind movement upgrade, as stated in the book, immediately moves the target a full range band, not slowly over the course of the round. it's a matter of speed. That's the key difference. Literally, the target starts one place is is instantly pushed away or pulled closer by a full range band before he even realizes it.

And the key effect of the basic move power is that it MOVES things

The entire movement of the target of Move is resolved in a single action. Exactly the same segment of time as the Bind Powers movement upgrade

1 minute ago, Richardbuxton said:

And the key effect of the basic move power is that it MOVES things

Yes, it does SLOWLY .

3 minutes ago, Richardbuxton said:

The entire movement of the target of Move is resolved in a single action. Exactly the same segment of time as the Bind Powers movement upgrade

The difference is that it takes the full round for the target to get from one place to the next as he is slowly levitated. Bind's movement upgrade does it instantly . It is immediate as he is shoved back at speed.

Specifically, using Move's base power, I lift the target, slowly levitate him out from short range to Medium range, over the course of the one minute (or so) round, and set him sown. Using Bind's movement upgrade, I push him back at high speed sending him flying from short range to medium range in less than one second . That is the difference between using Move's base power and Bind's movement upgrade.

Just now, Tramp Graphics said:

The difference is that it takes the full round for the target to get from one place to the next. Bind's movement upgrade does it instantly . It is immediate .

Mechanically, there is no difference. It's all in the narration. It's an action either way. It's not like the target gets to take an action in the middle of his journey. If the target hasn't already used his initiative slot and he can still take an action he will be taking his maneuvers and action from the spot either power has delivered him to. Relax. They mean the same thing. You can narrate them however you'd like.

7 minutes ago, ghatt said:

Mechanically, there is no difference. It's all in the narration. It's an action either way. It's not like the target gets to take an action in the middle of his journey. If the target hasn't already used his initiative slot and he can still take an action he will be taking his maneuvers and action from the spot either power has delivered him to. Relax. They mean the same thing. You can narrate them however you'd like.

Yes, it is all in the narration, but that is the key difference, and one which is explicitly spelled out in the rules. One is slow and deliberate and the other is immediate . That is an important detail that the book explicitly spells out in the different powers' descriptions. And actually, yes, if you're using Move's base power, there is nothing stopping the target from taking his action while levitating in the air as he is moved. Whereas with the Bind movement upgrade, he is pushed back or pulled forward without any opportunity to do anything before he is already in his new location because it happens so fast in real time. So, narratively, while you're slowly moving him with Move, he could shoot at you, whereas with Bind's movement upgrade, he is moved too fast for him to shoot until he is already one rage band back.

1 minute ago, Tramp Graphics said:

The difference is that it takes the full round for the target to get from one place to the next as he is slowly levitated. Bind's movement upgrade does it instantly . It is immediate as he is shoved back at speed.

Where does the rules for this power say it takes a round or that it occurs at the end of a round? The activating PCs action moves the target. That's it. I just reread it. Unless I didn't see it there I don't see any text saying it takes until the end of the round. It just says the target is moved. By the action. There is no time delay mentioned.

Why don't they take damage? That's where the narrative comes in. The effect is pretty clear, the story around it is up to the players. Maybe it's because you moved them slowly. Maybe they're tough and have armor and the toss, not intended to do harm, didn't. Maybe they hit something that broke their fall.

Using your interpretation if Move was used to move a melee combatant from Engaged to Long range and the melee combatant acted in the next initiative slot then they're still in Engaged Range? Or are they at Short? Or are they at an undeterminate distance?

Tramp, you're really good at sucking people back into conversations. I gotta hand that to you, it's a skill, but I've gotta break out of this loop once and for all.