2 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

And we have provided plenty of evidence that move is more than 2 speeds. so no it is not too slow.

which you pretty much ignored. It is not restricted to walking speed. You need to read the rest of the paragraph that talks about juggling crates. It starts out slow but as a user gets better the speed improves. Juggling is not slow speed. And the Devs have not responded to whether you need to use the immobilize power or not. Some things you do and some thing you don't

No, you're still limited to two basic speeds, slow and deliberate or fast and deadly. However, we're not talking snail's pace, we're talking about walking speed or so. Thus about human range of speed, vs the speed of a Fast ball, arrow, or bullet. Force Push and Force Pull, whether used as a raged attack or simply to move someone quickly way fro you or to you goes beyond the "slow and deliberate" of the base Move power, and is not covered by the "fine manipulation" Mastery upgrade which would handle things like juggling.

15 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Maybe on Kylo. It could be bind. But more likely it is move since it is slamming someone into an object. And without having Reys character sheet and knowing what talents she has what soak she has we will never know what happened in game terms. She could have a couple ranks of toughness and a decent soak. And Kylo could have spent a couple advantage on disorienting her. it does not have to be the stagger effect.

The problem with Move being what is used is that it only causes wound damage, and unless said wound damage exceeds her wound threshold, she would not be "knocked out" by it, and if her wound threshold had been exceeded, she could not have recovered that quickly. As an example, Finn's wound threshold most certainly was exceeded, and thus, he was completely incapacitated. He was still incapacitated when Rey left to find Luke at the end of the movie. By contrast, Rey recovered from hitting the tree within about one minute. This is best covered by the Staggered effect which only lasts until the target's next turn. This effect can be accomplised through Bind's Mastery upgrade which staggers the target (if done without using DSPs), or causes a Critical injury (if using DSPs) with a +10 added to the roll, which, given the right roll also results in a Staggered condition until the target's next turn. Either way, Rey was only down for about one round, and recovered completely after her next turn. This cannot be a result from Move's hurl upgrade. It can only be from Bind's movement upgrade combined with its mastery upgrade. It's the only way to simulate that specific series of events. Kylo wasn't specifically throwing Rey at the tree, using her as a projectile anyway, he was simply pushing her back several meters. There just happened to be a tree in the way. He wasn't trying to kill her . And that is pretty much what the Move hurl upgrade is designed for. It's designed to kill a target by throwing a projectile at him. Kylo was simply pushing Rey backwards several meters, not attacking the tree with her.

Also, no, it couldn't be a Disoriented result since all Disoriented does is impose Setbacks to the target's actions until the effect ends.

18 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

No, you're still limited to two basic speeds, slow and deliberate or fast and deadly. However, we're not talking snail's pace, we're talking about walking speed or so. Thus about human range of speed, vs the speed of a Fast ball, arrow, or bullet. Force Push and Force Pull, whether used as a raged attack or simply to move someone quickly way fro you or to you goes beyond the "slow and deliberate" of the base Move power, and is not covered by the "fine manipulation" Mastery upgrade which would handle things like juggling.

T he "fine manipulation" Control upgrade would not allow a user to juggle heavy crates. Unless you would like to argue that your average PC can juggle heavy crates by hand?

You'll have to take another swing at this one, I'm afraid.

Use Move. Roll Discipline check. Get Triumph. Spend Triumph on effect, in this case an equivalent narrative effect to Stagger X.

Optional: Rey took Strain Damage rather than Wound damage through some means. Rey exceeded her ST and is taken out. Rey uses Hard Headed (Improved) to get back in the fight.

5 minutes ago, awayputurwpn said:

T he "fine manipulation" Control upgrade would not allow a user to juggle heavy crates. Unless you would like to argue that your average PC can juggle heavy crates by hand?

You'll have to take another swing at this one, I'm afraid.

Combine Mastery upgrade with a couple of Strength upgrades and you're juggling the Muunta Stones (or crates). The Mastery upgrade allows for fine manipulation of objects, and juggling is fine manipulation of several objects at once. the size and mass of said objects is determined by the Strength upgrades used. Because if you're strong enough (say super-humanly strong) then yes, you could literally juggle large crates. So, yes, juggling larger crates still falls under the fine manipulation Mastery upgrade.

2 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

Use Move. Roll Discipline check. Get Triumph. Spend Triumph on effect, in this case an equivalent narrative effect to Stagger X.

Optional: Rey took Strain Damage rather than Wound damage through some means. Rey exceeded her ST and is taken out. Rey uses Hard Headed (Improved) to get back in the fight.

Nope. because, once again Move's hurl upgrade only inflicts wound damage, and that is the only way to use Move as Force Push (which is as a ranged attack at a target for wound damage). It makes more sense to say Kylo used the Bind movement upgrade combined with the Mastery upgrade to push Rey back several meters, with Kylo rolling a Staggered result on the Crit table, causing Rey to hit the tree and knocking her out until after her next turn. This also doesn't require Rey to have any "special talents" she really shouldn't have, given her likely career and Specialization(s), and is a lot more straight forward of an explanation.

21 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Combine Mastery upgrade with a couple of Strength upgrades and you're juggling the Muunta Stones (or crates). The Mastery upgrade allows for fine manipulation of objects, and juggling is fine manipulation of several objects at once. the size and mass of said objects is determined by the Strength upgrades used. Because if you're strong enough (say super-humanly strong) then yes, you could literally juggle large crates. So, yes, juggling larger crates still falls under the fine manipulation Mastery upgrade.

So you're saying you can move stuff faster without using the "hurl" Control upgrade?

Guys, we just need to let this madness end. Nobody is getting anywhere with this conversation. Tramp, you aren't going to convince us and we obviously aren't going to convince you. We all enjoy playing and/or reading the game/rule books. That we can agree on. Whatever works best at our respective tables/virtual tables/pbp/imaginations is what we each should use. This game is flexible by design. It should be able to accommodate all of us just fine. Tramp, have fun using bind, with its 2 force point requirement for the basic power, to force push people around, and the rest of us will use move and bind as we see appropriate.

10 minutes ago, awayputurwpn said:

So you're saying you can move stuff faster without using the "hurl" Control upgrade?

Faster than what? Normal human speed? No. Juggling is not really all that fast, if you really look at it. It's not nearly as fast as say throwing a baseball at high speed. It's actually relatively gentle and slow. In fact, if you look at real "speed jugglers", the objects themselves don't move at high velocities. What the juggler does is minimize how far the object is thrown, and speed up its rotation , not its velocity . So the object is not being thrown at any great speed. it's only spining at a higher speed but actualy moving a very small distance to allow for more objects to be thrown. So no, you can't move things "fast" using Move without the hurl upgrade.

Face the facts Tramp Graphics, your way of thinking is strictly adhering to your interpretation of a ruleset that the Developers pretty plainly intend to be flexible & unique to each & every gaming group. While your interpretation will work for you and maybe for your group as well, it won't hold fast to any other gaming group, especially the ones that have had years of experience with not only reading these rules but also playing the game to really understand the intent in the written material. Basically, you won't convince anyone that your way is correct & considering how long this conversation has gone on and circled around the same topic for 30 pages, nobody is going to convince you that there's more than one way to arrive at the same result.

However, here are the facts.

The Devs have never stated that Move has only 2 speeds. They have stated, in regards to moving yourself, that it would be slow & deliberate. There are also lines of text in the Rulebooks themselves, talking about how one can perform feats that are neither as slow as walking speed, nor are as fast as something that will deal damage. This system is narrative & a lot of situations are open to GM interpretation & rulings. It's perfectly reasonable to allow someone to juggle astromechs if they wanted to without needing to use the Hurl upgrade, just the same as it's reasonable to move someone closer or further away without using the Hurl upgrade. "Slow & deliberate" doesn't even necessarily mean that it's all that slow, considering the fact that there's different speeds that people walk at and you can generally cover a small amount of ground pretty quickly without it being considered that you're past the speed of just walking. For instance, a character can spend a Maneuver to change from Short range to Short range, or Short range to Medium range within their turn but that could mean they are walking briskly, not jogging, running or sprinting.

The Devs have stated that Push Pull & Move are all the same for the game's purposes. This means that Move is likely their default go-to for moving around people & objects with the Force, not Bind. Can Bind accomplish similar things to Move, in slightly different ways? Absolutely. Does it have to be one of them specifically? No, not really.

You stick with RAW in regards to some aspects of this conversation and allow for stuff like Developer comments but ONLY when it supports your own views. Case-in-point, you only quote the Developer comment about Move being slow & deliberate (which, again, was referring to when you're moving yourself), however whenever it's brought up, you disagree with the fact that the same Developers have said that Move, Push & Pull are the same thing in this game.

You try to attempt to rationalize that Move representing Push & Pull is an incorrect view because it's older than the F&D Core, yet there has been no change in the stance of the Developers as far as everyone knows. You're trying to tell us that the Developers disagree with their previous statements with no proof. Show us that proof. We would love to see it.

18 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Faster than what? Normal human speed? No. Juggling is not really all that fast, if you really look at it. It's not nearly as fast as say throwing a baseball at high speed. It's actually relatively gentle and slow. In fact, if you look at real "speed jugglers", the objects themselves don't move at high velocities. What the juggler does is minimize how far the object is thrown, and speed up its rotation , not its velocity . So the object is not being thrown at any great speed. it's only spining at a higher speed but actualy moving a very small distance to allow for more objects to be thrown. So no, you can't move things "fast" using Move without the hurl upgrade.

Juggling between 2 people at 30 feet apart is pretty quick. Juggling kind of has different speeds depending on what you are juggling and the distance covered.

34 minutes ago, GroggyGolem said:

Face the facts Tramp Graphics, your way of thinking is strictly adhering to your interpretation of a ruleset that the Developers pretty plainly intend to be flexible & unique to each & every gaming group. While your interpretation will work for you and maybe for your group as well, it won't hold fast to any other gaming group, especially the ones that have had years of experience with not only reading these rules but also playing the game to really understand the intent in the written material. Basically, you won't convince anyone that your way is correct & considering how long this conversation has gone on and circled around the same topic for 30 pages, nobody is going to convince you that there's more than one way to arrive at the same result.

However, here are the facts.

The Devs have never stated that Move has only 2 speeds. They have stated, in regards to moving yourself, that it would be slow & deliberate. There are also lines of text in the Rulebooks themselves, talking about how one can perform feats that are neither as slow as walking speed, nor are as fast as something that will deal damage. This system is narrative & a lot of situations are open to GM interpretation & rulings. It's perfectly reasonable to allow someone to juggle astromechs if they wanted to without needing to use the Hurl upgrade, just the same as it's reasonable to move someone closer or further away without using the Hurl upgrade. "Slow & deliberate" doesn't even necessarily mean that it's all that slow, considering the fact that there's different speeds that people walk at and you can generally cover a small amount of ground pretty quickly without it being considered that you're past the speed of just walking. For instance, a character can spend a Maneuver to change from Short range to Short range, or Short range to Medium range within their turn but that could mean they are walking briskly, not jogging, running or sprinting.

The Devs have stated that Push Pull & Move are all the same for the game's purposes. This means that Move is likely their default go-to for moving around people & objects with the Force, not Bind. Can Bind accomplish similar things to Move, in slightly different ways? Absolutely. Does it have to be one of them specifically? No, not really.

You stick with RAW in regards to some aspects of this conversation and allow for stuff like Developer comments but ONLY when it supports your own views. Case-in-point, you only quote the Developer comment about Move being slow & deliberate (which, again, was referring to when you're moving yourself), however whenever it's brought up, you disagree with the fact that the same Developers have said that Move, Push & Pull are the same thing in this game.

You try to attempt to rationalize that Move representing Push & Pull is an incorrect view because it's older than the F&D Core, yet there has been no change in the stance of the Developers as far as everyone knows. You're trying to tell us that the Developers disagree with their previous statements with no proof. Show us that proof. We would love to see it.

1. yes, the Developers have stated that the base move without the Hurl upgrade, is slow and deliberate , only about walking speed. The book itself also says this word for word. so, yes, there are only two basic speeds.

2. Move was the only option available for Force Push at the time that the Developers made that statement, and it really only covers the Hurl upgrade of Move . And the fact that the Bind movement upgrade does better emulate one of the main purposes of Force Push and Force Pull without having to inflict wound damage definitely points to the fact that this particular upgrade was specifically designed to fill this role that Move and its upgrades really didn't cover very well, given the limitations built into it.

3. The RAW is always my primary source for my arguments, and I'm using the Developer's comments specifically which clarify the RAW, particularly in regards to Force and Destiny . Remember, the Developers are not allowed to reveal any information which is not released in the final product. Beta's are not the final product, they're technically for play testers only. So, for official games, Move was the only option for players in EotE and AoR. In fact, if you don't bring in F&D to those games, it is still the case. But, for F&D, Bind does provide a better option for a "general" Force Push and Force Pull that does not necessarily inflict damage to the target. Therefore, Move is not the only way to simulate Force Push or Force Pull . It can, and is simulated with Bind's movement upgrade as well.

4. My Assertion is not that Move is the incorrect power to use for Force Push all of the time. My assertion is that whether you use Move or Bind's movement upgrade for Force Push or Force Pull is determined by what you are trying to accomplish.

Therefore, if you're trying to hurl someone into someone else as a ranged attack in order to inflict wound damage to both parties, then you use Move with its hurl upgrade. If you are simply trying to push someone away from you (or pul them to you), without necessarily inflicting wound damage, then you use Bind's movment upgrade. Both powers can be used for Force Push and Force Pull , but for different purposes. Move is used for ranged attacks to inflict wounds, Bind is used for pushing away or pulling them forwards without inflicting wounds.

12 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Juggling between 2 people at 30 feet apart is pretty quick. Juggling kind of has different speeds depending on what you are juggling and the distance covered.

It's not really "that " quick, certainly not faster than a slow jog or fast walk, at most. In fact, I looked up Fast juggling when I responded to you last, which is where I came up with the information I posted. So it is still within the "slow and deliberate" of the base move power, not the speed or force you'd need for a proper Force Push or Force Pull, whether or not you're trying to injure your target.

7 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

It's not really "that " quick, certainly not faster than a slow jog or fast walk, at most. In fact, I looked up Fast juggling when I responded to you last, which is where I came up with the information I posted. So it is still within the "slow and deliberate" of the base move power, not the speed or force you'd need for a proper Force Push or Force Pull, whether or not you're trying to injure your target.

This is where we have a problem and I think part of the problem is you thing a round is a few seconds. It is not. It is about a minute. And all the range you can move with bind can be covered in a brisk deliberate walk. So really the bind movement upgrade is not any faster than move its self is.

5 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

This is where we have a problem and I think part of the problem is you thing a round is a few seconds. It is not. It is about a minute. And all the range you can move with bind can be covered in a brisk deliberate walk. So really the bind movement upgrade is not any faster than move its self is.

No. That's not it. It's specifically the way the powers and their upgrades are written. Move's base power specifically states that it is slow and deliberate (word for word). The developers back this up. By contrast, the Bind movement upgrade specifically states that the movement of the target is immediate . It's a fast move, but not necessarily inflicting wound damage from any impacts. So the target is literally being pushed back or pulled forward one range band in an instant Not slowly over the course of a minute as with Move's base power.

Dude. bind does not say immediate. it says move one range increment. On your turn at about the same speed at you can move.

I got a response from Sam Stewart to my questions:

Move and Bind:
1.
Can Move be used on Living beings, including beasts, PC's, NPC's, and Droids?

Quote

1. Yes.

2a.
When using Move to take something from Engaged to Extreme range in a single action without the Control upgrade to cause damage does the entire travel time happen in a single round?
2b.
If not then do you have guidance on how long it should take?

Quote

2. Yes. However, keep in mind that a round is not a set amount of time (in Chapter 6, this is called out in the Structured Gameplay Overview section; a round’s length in “real world” time is deliberately not specified.)

3.
When using Bind, in particular the Control upgrade for moving your target, do you need to activate the base power and immobilise your target before being able to move them? Or can you spend only a single Force Point on activating the power to only move the target a single range band?
(ie does the movement control upgrade add a new way to activate the basic power or is it something that can only be activated after first activating the normal "Immobilise & wound" basic power)

Quote

3. You need to activate the base power first.

4a.
Can the Bind control upgrade that moves the target one range band closer or further away be used to push/pull the target into/through an obstacle?
4b.
If yes, what damage would the target and/or obstacle take?

Quote

4. Yes you can push someone into someone. However, they do not take damage from this.

5a.
When using Bind, only "targets, others & enemies" are mentioned as to what you can target with the power. Can one use Bind on living beings such as animals & non-living beings, such as droids?
5b.
If yes, is there a silhouette limit on the Bind power?

5c. Can Bind be used on non-sentient targets such as equipment, ships, Blaster shots, doors and the general environment.

Quote

5. Bind cannot be used to target equipment, gear, items, and whatnot. It can target droids or animals. Though there is no silhouette limit, the GM can rule that some things are too big (or not really appropriate) to be targets of Bind, including droid-run spaceships, space slugs, rancors, and other such items.

6.
When a Force User spends a Force Point from a power check to activate the basic Bind power is the target always Staggered? Or can the Force User chose to activate the basic power without Staggering the target

Quote

6. Using the mastery ability is in itself a choice, and since staggering the target is the only effect, if you don’t want to stagger the target, don’t use the mastery ability.

Now I screwed up on the final question, typing Stagger instead of Immobilise, I have replied to Sam telling him as much and asking for an answer to what the question should have been, so I basically ignore that question until I get the response.

I haven't read anything in the last 4 or so pages, I ran out of Popcorn. But if you have any other questions you want clarification on I may be able to tease them out of Sam by asking politely.

Well, sounds like both Aterion's and Tramp's assertions on this topic have been pretty thoroughly shot down.

Thanks for posting the questions & answers @Richardbuxton !

Looking forward to explaining to my players that Bind can crush & harm droids & creatures within reason (choking a Rancor would be pretty crazy, though I might allow one to Bind a Rancor's hand to release an ally or something like that), as well as Move being able to affect not just "objects".

I also enjoy the response on how long Move would take when not using the Hurl upgrade.

2 hours ago, Richardbuxton said:

I got a response from Sam Stewart to my questions:

Move and Bind:
1.
Can Move be used on Living beings, including beasts, PC's, NPC's, and Droids?

2a.
When using Move to take something from Engaged to Extreme range in a single action without the Control upgrade to cause damage does the entire travel time happen in a single round?
2b.
If not then do you have guidance on how long it should take?

3.
When using Bind, in particular the Control upgrade for moving your target, do you need to activate the base power and immobilise your target before being able to move them? Or can you spend only a single Force Point on activating the power to only move the target a single range band?
(ie does the movement control upgrade add a new way to activate the basic power or is it something that can only be activated after first activating the normal "Immobilise & wound" basic power)

4a.
Can the Bind control upgrade that moves the target one range band closer or further away be used to push/pull the target into/through an obstacle?
4b.
If yes, what damage would the target and/or obstacle take?

5a.
When using Bind, only "targets, others & enemies" are mentioned as to what you can target with the power. Can one use Bind on living beings such as animals & non-living beings, such as droids?
5b.
If yes, is there a silhouette limit on the Bind power?

5c. Can Bind be used on non-sentient targets such as equipment, ships, Blaster shots, doors and the general environment.

6.
When a Force User spends a Force Point from a power check to activate the basic Bind power is the target always Staggered? Or can the Force User chose to activate the basic power without Staggering the target

Now I screwed up on the final question, typing Stagger instead of Immobilise, I have replied to Sam telling him as much and asking for an answer to what the question should have been, so I basically ignore that question until I get the response.

Wouldn't the answer to question 3 suffice for the question you meant to ask with 6?

1 minute ago, ghatt said:

Wouldn't the answer to question 3 suffice for the question you meant to ask with 6?

Probably for you or I it would.

1 hour ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

Well, sounds like both Aterion's and Tramp's assertions on this topic have been pretty thoroughly shot down.

The nice thing though? They don't even have to care. They can run the game however their group wants. If they GM and want it their way then fine. But it puts to bed the question of lawyering RAW/RAI and shifts it where it should be: House Rules.

3 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

Well, sounds like both Aterion's and Tramp's assertions on this topic have been pretty thoroughly shot down.

You mean it works the way we have been saying for 30 pages....Shocked I say Shocked.

I am pretty sure me, Dono, Away, have been playing since the beta for edge. And a lot of this stuff has been pretty well worked out years ago.

2 hours ago, Richardbuxton said:

Probably for you or I it would.

The nice thing though? They don't even have to care. They can run the game however their group wants. If they GM and want it their way then fine. But it puts to bed the question of lawyering RAW/RAI and shifts it where it should be: House Rules.

You mean there is not a Rules police that breaks your legs if you do it wrong. I am thinking Klatoonian thgs would do this job well...

1 minute ago, Daeglan said:

You mean there is not a Rules police that breaks your legs if you do it wrong. I am thinking Klatoonian thgs would do this job well...

Or a Wookiee, they don't like being beaten after all...

For me I hope Tramp finds a game. Nothing beats experience and this is definitely a game to experience.