5 minutes ago, Magnus Arcanus said:

Completely random thought that is off topic, but perhaps one of the two new forces powers in Disciples of Harmony will be able to recreate this effect? Perhaps maybe Ebb and Flow?

OK, you all may now continue your regularly scheduled logic disputes about whether or not Force Push/Pull is mechanically handled by the hurl upgrade in the Move Power Tree (hint: It is).

It can be, but only for one specific use (dealing damage as a ranged attack to inflict wounds), not for the true purpose, being pushing someone away from you or pulling him to you without necessarily injuring or killing him.

15 minutes ago, Aetrion said:

I have no issue with adding new and mysterious things, but a universe must be internally consistent, and giving Kylo Ren a completely new and unexplained power that he never uses again for anything and no other character has ever had is just not.

Internal consistency doesn't preclude new stuff. And just because something awesome happens in a movie doesn't mean it needs to happen again. Darth Vader chokes Admiral Ozzel via vidscreen. He wards off blaster bolts with his hands. Anakin and Obi-Wan use the Force at the same time and cause some sort of explosion that sends them both flying backwards. Mace Windu causes a feedback loop with Sidious' own Force lightning. We only see one occurrence each of these things in the saga. It's part of the schtick, using the Force in never-before-seen ways. That is what keeps the Force mysterious.

Regarding blaster bolts, remember, Star Wars has refined plasma. We have no reference for how far blaster bolts can travel or how cohesive they are.

1 minute ago, Tramp Graphics said:

It can be, but only for one specific use (dealing damage as a ranged attack to inflict wounds), not for the true purpose, being pushing someone away from you or pulling him to you without necessarily injuring or killing him.

You mean there are examples of Force Push/Pull being used for a reason other than to damage the target? Because the vast majority of the time the target takes damage.

7 minutes ago, Magnus Arcanus said:

You mean there are examples of Force Push/Pull being used for a reason other than to damage the target? Because the vast majority of the time the target takes damage.

Yes. There are several; a number of which I have specifically mentioned. Kanan used the Bind movement upgrade on Ezra to Force Push him quickly across a chasm. And earlier in the season, he and Ezra combined their efforts to Fore Push Sabine at speed over a group of Spiders to get the sonic barrier emitter. Kylo Ren pushed Rey back several meters and other than being staggered for a minute or so, was unhurt . Earlier, he pulled a First Order officer swiftly into to him, without hurting him (just scaring the H3ll out of him). All of these are covered by the Bind movement upgrade, not Hurl, and not the base Move power (which is too slow).

1 minute ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Yes. There are several; a number of which I have specifically mentioned. Kanan used the Bind movement upgrade on Ezra to Force Push him quickly across a chasm. Kylo Ren pushed Rey back several meters and other than being staggered for a minute or so, was unhurt . Earlier, he pulled a First Order officer swiftly into to him, without hurting him (just scaring the H3ll out of him). All of these are covered by the Bind movement upgrade, not Hurl, and not the base Move power (which is too slow).

Ya know bind and move can be used in similar ways. Kylo Ren loves him some bind so his player probably has more xp invested in bind than in move.

Ultimately, both bind and move are just different mechanics to explain different uses of the same power, force telekinesis.

Notice how Kanan doesn't throw people who aren't force users? There's probably a reason, such as, they'd be horribly injured when they landed. I see no reason why a gm would insist damage be dealt with hurl when both players are ready and consent to it so long as the hurled player has talents or skills that could be used to avoid damage so long as they don't get hurled into a wall or other obstruction. As a gm I'd have the hurled player roll an appropriate check to avoid damage. It's a creative solution, and I love creative solutions.

27 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Yes, but to use the Move Hurl upgrade, per RAW, you have to make a ranged attack against a target. So, yes, you do need a target, and you do inherently do wound damage to both the target and the projectile from the impact. That is what Hurl specifically does. That is all Hurl does. This is explicitly stated in its description.

Ergo, the Move hurl upgrade is specifically a ranged attack dealing damage, nothing more.

Imagine this interchange:

Player: "I want to shoot my blaster into the atmosphere. I don't want to hurt anyone."

GM: "No, you can't do that. Ranged attacks are only for causing damage. The rules specifically state that your blaster causes 6 damage, so you need a target for that damage."

What is wrong with the above scenario? Anyone?

Per Tramp Graphic's idea that anything with a physical mass is a valid target, I deal 6 damage to the air. I'm now coughing as it dissipates.

For real though, TG you're super rigid on what the Move Hurl upgrade can do but you're perfectly fine with adding in ridiculous ways to use Bind regarding that one sidebar that should at best be used in special circumstances and isn't supposed to be a hard-set rule. Why does Bind get the special treatment over Move?

1 minute ago, GroggyGolem said:

Per Tramp Graphic's idea that anything with a physical mass is a valid target, I deal 6 damage to the air. I'm now coughing as it dissipates.

I wonder if blaster bolts provide cover...

8 minutes ago, ghatt said:

Ya know bind and move can be used in similar ways. Kylo Ren loves him some bind so his player probably has more xp invested in bind than in move.

Ultimately, both bind and move are just different mechanics to explain different uses of the same power, force telekinesis.

Notice how Kanan doesn't throw people who aren't force users? There's probably a reason, such as, they'd be horribly injured when they landed. I see no reason why a gm would insist damage be dealt with hurl when both players are ready and consent to it so long as the hurled player has talents or skills that could be used to avoid damage so long as they don't get hurled into a wall or other obstruction. As a gm I'd have the hurled player roll an appropriate check to avoid damage. It's a creative solution, and I love creative solutions.

NO, because the damage inflicted is essentially unavoidable. Hurl is a ranged attack only, by RAW, not a means of swift travel over a distance. Thus, even a Force user would be horribly injured.

3 minutes ago, awayputurwpn said:

Imagine this interchange:

Player: "I want to shoot my blaster into the atmosphere. I don't want to hurt anyone."

GM: "No, you can't do that. Ranged attacks are only for causing damage. The rules specifically state that your blaster causes 6 damage, so you need a target for that damage."

The difference there is that you can, by RAW, simply shoot a blaster up in the air. You can't do that, by RAW with the Move hurl upgrade. This is because, no matter what you aim at, even if it's the air, the speed at which you move the object or person being hurled, they will take damage from the eventual impact, even if it is from hitting the ground afterwards. The Move hurl upgrade always inflicts damage.

On 2/2/2017 at 1:46 PM, Tramp Graphics said:

NO, because the damage inflicted is essentially unavoidable. Hurl is a ranged attack only, by RAW, not a means of swift travel over a distance. Thus, even a Force user would be horribly injured.

The difference there is that you can, by RAW, simply shoot a blaster up in the air. You can't do that, by RAW with the Move hurl upgrade. This is because, no matter what you aim at, even if it's the air, the speed at which you move the object or person being hurled, they will take damage from the eventual impact, even if it is from hitting the ground afterwards. The Move hurl upgrade always inflicts damage.

I can see why Elias won't let you gm, lol.

Anyhow, I'm done with this specific conversation. Our gming and player styles are too far apart to agree on this and undoubtedly numerous other topics. Have fun playing the game, Tramp, I know I do.

3 minutes ago, GroggyGolem said:

Per Tramp Graphic's idea that anything with a physical mass is a valid target, I deal 6 damage to the air. I'm now coughing as it dissipates.

For real though, TG you're super rigid on what the Move Hurl upgrade can do but you're perfectly fine with adding in ridiculous ways to use Bind regarding that one sidebar that should at best be used in special circumstances and isn't supposed to be a hard-set rule. Why does Bind get the special treatment over Move?

It doesn't. The issue here is interpreting what we see Kylo does in the movie in game terms using the rules we have. Since, by the rules, a character can only activate one Force Power per action, and only gets one action per round, and since Kylo was certainly using Bind against Poe, while simultaneously freezing the blaster bolt, then, by RAW, Kylo had to have been using Bind to immobilize the blaster bolt while also immobilizing Poe Dameron. Whether you explain it by him using a Despair Poe rolled, or a Destiney Point, or some other justification, interpreting the scene in game terms requires Kylo to be using Bind to immobilize the blaster bolt along with Poe. It is not the ideal solution, but it is all we have .

6 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

The difference there is that you can, by RAW, simply shoot a blaster up in the air. You can't do that, by RAW with the Move hurl upgrade.

Show me one piece of rules that says you can simply shoot a blaster up in the air without causing damage. (I agree that you can; it's just not specifically part of the rules. Your argument is invalid)

Quote

This is because, no matter what you aim at, even if it's the air, the speed at which you move the object or person being hurled, they will take damage from the eventual impact, even if it is from hitting the ground afterwards. The Move hurl upgrade always inflicts damage.

What if they're already at ground level and just get hurled 20 feet away? What do they hit, if they just get moved but not knocked down?

What if you miss?

The "Hurl" upgrades doesn't necessarily always inflict damage.

Now, personally, I agree that the Hurl upgrade is primarily for causing damage. I wouldn't have a player use the Hurl upgrade if they wanted to simply thrust an opponent backwards 20 feet. I'd just have them use the Basic power + Strength upgrade.

4 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Whether you explain it by him using a Despair Poe rolled, or a Destiney Point, or some other justification, interpreting the scene in game terms requires Kylo to be using Bind to immobilize the blaster bolt along with Poe. It is not the ideal solution, but it is all we have .

Not necessarily. He could have used Protect as an out-of-turn incidental, with some narrative flair for how the power worked, and then used Bind on his turn.

2 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

It doesn't. The issue here is interpreting what we see Kylo does in the movie in game terms using the rules we have. Since, by the rules, a character can only activate one Force Power per action, and only gets one action per round, and since Kylo was certainly using Bind against Poe, while simultaneously freezing the blaster bolt, then, by RAW, Kylo had to have been using Bind to immobilize the blaster bolt while also immobilizing Poe Dameron. Whether you explain it by him using a Despair Poe rolled, or a Destiney Point, or some other justification, interpreting the scene in game terms requires Kylo to be using Bind to immobilize the blaster bolt along with Poe. It is not the ideal solution, but it is all we have .

If you flip a destiny point, use a triumph or despair to freeze the bolt then you're really not using it as part of the Bind power, which, per RAW only allows you to target sentient/living targets (again, I will refer to the 2 pages for Bind stating enemy, foe, him, the fact that a blaster bolt can't harm itself and the word "themselves" when speaking of the target denotes it is a person/living being and not an inanimate object). Nowhere does it say you can target someone else's blaster bolt. You're pulling rules out of thin air on this one, allowing Bind to accomplish something it is not meant for (targeting things that aren't NPCs or PCs) while simultaneously telling everyone that Move can ONLY work by the RAW. You force Move to only work by the RAW but allow Bind to work outside the RAW according to your own interpretation which includes ignoring a page and a half of text that shows what Bind can target. You can't have it both ways. Either they both work by RAW or they both don't and you're house-ruling things.

7 minutes ago, awayputurwpn said:

Show me one piece of rules that says you can simply shoot a blaster up in the air without causing damage. (I agree that you can; it's just not specifically part of the rules. Your argument is invalid)

What if they're already at ground level and just get hurled 20 feet away? What do they hit, if they just get moved but not knocked down?

What if you miss?

The "Hurl" upgrades doesn't necessarily always inflict damage.

Now, personally, I agree that the Hurl upgrade is primarily for causing damage. I wouldn't have a player use the Hurl upgrade if they wanted to simply thrust an opponent backwards 20 feet. I'd just have them use the Basic power + Strength upgrade.

No, because that is not how the Move Hurl upgrade is written, but is exactly how the Bind movement upgrade is written. The Move Hurl upgrade is specifically written to be used as a ranged attack against a target , it is not written to be used to push someone backwards for distance. By contrast, the Bind movement upgrade is specifically written to move a target at speed for distance, not necessarily to inflict injury. That is the difference. One power's upgrade is intended for attack and damage only, the other is specifically for pushing a target away or pulling the target to the user. Use the right power for the right purpose. IF you want to use someone as a projectile to injure or kill him and a third party, use Hurl, that's what it was designed for. If you want to push someone away from you, or pull him to you, use Bind's movement upgrade. That is what it was designed for.

5 minutes ago, awayputurwpn said:

Not necessarily. He could have used Protect as an out-of-turn incidental, with some narrative flair for how the power worked, and then used Bind on his turn.

Except that once again, the action was done simultaneously , with a single power, not one after the other. That's where the problem lies narratively.

7 minutes ago, GroggyGolem said:

If you flip a destiny point, use a triumph or despair to freeze the bolt then you're really not using it as part of the Bind power, which, per RAW only allows you to target sentient/living targets (again, I will refer to the 2 pages for Bind stating enemy, foe, him, the fact that a blaster bolt can't harm itself and the word "themselves" when speaking of the target denotes it is a person/living being and not an inanimate object). Nowhere does it say you can target someone else's blaster bolt. You're pulling rules out of thin air on this one, allowing Bind to accomplish something it is not meant for (targeting things that aren't NPCs or PCs) while simultaneously telling everyone that Move can ONLY work by the RAW. You force Move to only work by the RAW but allow Bind to work outside the RAW according to your own interpretation which includes ignoring a page and a half of text that shows what Bind can target. You can't have it both ways. Either they both work by RAW or they both don't and you're house-ruling things.

You're using the Despair or Destiny Point to use the power a bit more outside of its intended purpose (perhaps way outside of its intended use, on that I agree). But, once again, it is not an ideal solution. It's just what we have to work with. If there were a better option, based on the game mechanics we have, I'd be all for it, but, given that the game only allows one action, per turn, and one Force Power activation per action , the only interpretation of that scene that is viable mechanically, is that Kylo use Bind to simultaneously immobilize Poe and the blaster bolt, with the help of the Despairs Poe rolled. If I were GM, I certainly would not allow this as a " normal " use of Bind .

6 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

No, because that is not how the Move Hurl upgrade is written, but is exactly how the Bind movement upgrade is written. The Move Hurl upgrade is specifically written to be used as a ranged attack against a target , it is not written to be used to push someone backwards for distance. By contrast, the Bind movement upgrade is specifically written to move a target at speed for distance, not necessarily to inflict injury. That is the difference. One power's upgrade is intended for attack and damage only, the other is specifically for pushing a target away or pulling the target to the user. Use the right power for the right purpose. IF you want to use someone as a projectile to injure or kill him and a third party, use Hurl, that's what it was designed for. If you want to push someone away from you, or pull him to you, use Bind's movement upgrade. That is what it was designed for.

I don't see any rules on shooting blasters into the air. Does that mean you concede the argument?

Because right now I'm rolling a Force check, and using Move to mechanically move an enemy 20 feet away from my character, and calling it "Force push." And hey, it worked!!

Quote

Except that once again, the action was done simultaneously , with a single power, not one after the other. That's where the problem lies narratively.

No problem exists. Page 204 of the FaD CRB, second full paragraph: "...also remember that although each round is broken up into turns that happen sequentially in gameplay, narratively the turns are occurring at roughly the same time."

This have been a common concept in turn-based roleplay gaming. You need a structure, but you don't necessarily marry the narrative to the structure. The structure simply assists the narrative.

"Hey GM, I know that the Move Hurl upgrade says I have to do damage to the target, but can I just make a ranged check and push them a few feet without doing damage? I want to let this guy know we mean business, without actually hurting him."

"Sure, that's fine."

Just now, Tramp Graphics said:

You're using the Despair or Destiny Point to use the power a bit more outside of its intended purpose (perhaps way outside of its intended use, on that I agree). But, once again, it is not an ideal solution. It's just what we have to work with. If there were a better option, based on the game mechanics we have, I'd be all for it, but, given that the game only allows one action, per turn, and one Force Power activation per action , the only interpretation of that scene that is viable mechanically, is that Kylo use Bind to simultaneously immobilize Poe and the blaster bolt, with the help of the Despairs Poe rolled. If I were GM, I certainly would not allow this as a " normal " use of Bind .

Per the Core Rules on Destiny Points

"Over the course of the PC's adventures, destiny can intervene on their behalf for good or ill. Destiny might manifest in a positive way and provide a temporary advantage or boost to a PC's abilities. Or destiny might prove an ill omen and impose additional hardships and complications."

"Destiny Points are resources that can be invested by the players and GM for a variety of different effects."

"The following sections explains some of the ways in which Destiny Points can be used." *emphasis mine*

in the section titled Luck and the Deus Ex Machina

"Destiny can be used by the players to introduce 'facts' and additional context directly into the narrative. The GM already does this by managing and directing the story, but this use of Destiny Points provides the players with a means to make contributions as well."

"Using Destiny Points narratively is a great way to keep all of the players involved and the story moving forward. However, the GM has the final say over what is and is not acceptable... Ultimately, narrative use of Destiny Points allows the players to feel empowered as active participants in the game and story by rewarding their creativity and roleplaying. If a requested use of a Destiny Point would contribute toward this goal, the GM should consider allowing it."

So let's try this scenario:

GM JJ has the big bad enemy guy, Kylo Ren, kill Lor San Tekka.

Player Poe says, "I shoot him." Aims, Rolls, misses.

GM JJ succeeds on a Bind check with Kylo Ren, Flips a Dark Destiny Point & says "You feel your entire body go rigid, in addition, the blaster shot you fired is frozen in mid-air, like someone hit the pause button but just on it. Mechanically, this has no effect just to let you know, but Narratively, this guy is a badass."

I could further quote the Core Rules about all the things you can do with Triumphs/Despairs and how they are often left up to the creatitivy and imaginations of both the GM and Players but I feel like it's unnecessary to go that far.

23 minutes ago, awayputurwpn said:

I don't see any rules on shooting blasters into the air. Does that mean you concede the argument?

Because right now I'm rolling a Force check, and using Move to mechanically move an enemy 20 feet away from my character, and calling it "Force push." And hey, it worked!!

No problem exists. Page 204 of the FaD CRB, second full paragraph: "...also remember that although each round is broken up into turns that happen sequentially in gameplay, narratively the turns are occurring at roughly the same time."

This have been a common concept in turn-based roleplay gaming. You need a structure, but you don't necessarily marry the narrative to the structure. The structure simply assists the narrative.

Without the Hurl upgrade, Move only works very slowly, as stated by the Devs. This is why the base Move doesn't work as Force Push to push someone back away from you at speed. It's too slow . Bind's movement upgrade, however, does push a target away from you swiftly , which is what we see with Force Push . It's a swift and immediate push (or pull in the case of Force Pull ), not a slow, deliberate movement. That is the key difference.

And, actually, as far as Kylo's action, even going by that statement, yes, there is still a problem, because what Kylo did was part of a single action, not multiple actions. He didn't freeze the bolt and then freeze Poe. He froze them both as a single action . That is what I'm talking about.

16 minutes ago, StarkJunior said:

"Hey GM, I know that the Move Hurl upgrade says I have to do damage to the target, but can I just make a ranged check and push them a few feet without doing damage? I want to let this guy know we mean business, without actually hurting him."

"Sure, that's fine."

By RAW, no you can't. The Hurl upgrade only does impact damage. If you want to push him a few feet back at speed, that is specifically covered by the Bind movement upgrade. That is what that power's upgrade does.

15 minutes ago, GroggyGolem said:

Per the Core Rules on Destiny Points

"Over the course of the PC's adventures, destiny can intervene on their behalf for good or ill. Destiny might manifest in a positive way and provide a temporary advantage or boost to a PC's abilities. Or destiny might prove an ill omen and impose additional hardships and complications."

"Destiny Points are resources that can be invested by the players and GM for a variety of different effects."

"The following sections explains some of the ways in which Destiny Points can be used." *emphasis mine*

in the section titled Luck and the Deus Ex Machina

"Destiny can be used by the players to introduce 'facts' and additional context directly into the narrative. The GM already does this by managing and directing the story, but this use of Destiny Points provides the players with a means to make contributions as well."

"Using Destiny Points narratively is a great way to keep all of the players involved and the story moving forward. However, the GM has the final say over what is and is not acceptable... Ultimately, narrative use of Destiny Points allows the players to feel empowered as active participants in the game and story by rewarding their creativity and roleplaying. If a requested use of a Destiny Point would contribute toward this goal, the GM should consider allowing it."

So let's try this scenario:

GM JJ has the big bad enemy guy, Kylo Ren, kill Lor San Tekka.

Player Poe says, "I shoot him." Aims, Rolls, misses.

GM JJ succeeds on a Bind check with Kylo Ren, Flips a Dark Destiny Point & says "You feel your entire body go rigid, in addition, the blaster shot you fired is frozen in mid-air, like someone hit the pause button but just on it. Mechanically, this has no effect just to let you know, but Narratively, this guy is a badass."

I could further quote the Core Rules about all the things you can do with Triumphs/Despairs and how they are often left up to the creatitivy and imaginations of both the GM and Players but I feel like it's unnecessary to go that far.

It's basically the same description I gave, except I used Despairs rolled by Poe to broaden the use of Bind beyond its normal limits, but still within the "General" scope of its base power, (immobilization of a target). A Destiny Point works just as well. Either way, the base power being used is Bind .

"Hey GM, I know that the Move Hurl upgrade says I have to do damage to the target, but can I just make a ranged check and push them a few feet without doing damage? I want to let this guy know we mean business, without actually hurting him."

"Sure, that's fine."

"Even though by RAW it does damage and I don't have Bind? Some guy on the forums said so."

"So? I said it's fine and it's our game - and we like to have fun! Go for it."

1 minute ago, Tramp Graphics said:

It's basically the same description I gave, except I used Despairs rolled by Poe to broaden the use of Bind beyond its normal limits, but still within the "General" scope of its base power, (immobilization of a target). A Destiny Point works just as well. Either way, the base power being used is Bind .

I can see what you're thinking but no the Destiny Point flip would be a separate thing in its entirety.

So there's Bind, which covers what happens to Poe

Then there's the Destiny Point flip, which covers the really cool blaster bolt being frozen.

Yes it can also be covered with Triumphs/Despairs on a check as long as the GM deems it reasonable but it is not at all part of the Bind power RAW, as Bind is written to only affects living/sentient targets. A Blaster Bolt isn't living or sentient, so it isn't covered by the Bind power but by the really bad thing on Poe's Despair or the really good thing on Kylo's Triumph or the Destiny Point. It's not at all done by using the Bind power RAW.

1 hour ago, awayputurwpn said:

Imagine this interchange:

Player: "I want to shoot my blaster into the atmosphere. I don't want to hurt anyone."

GM: "No, you can't do that. Ranged attacks are only for causing damage. The rules specifically state that your blaster causes 6 damage, so you need a target for that damage."

What is wrong with the above scenario? Anyone?

<<<raises hand>>>

It needs more random bolding ?

Am I the only one that reads Tramp's bold-splattered text as though it's being said in the most exaggerated Shatner-speak ever?

12 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

<<<raises hand>>>

It needs more random bolding ?