Just now, HappyDaze said:

Well then, empty space can be a target too.

There you go. Air is matter and has mass. Therefore, by the logic that a blaster bolt can be a valid target, air can also be a target.

"Force push" problem solved.

3 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

Well then, empty space can be a target too.

I don't know about "empty space", but any physical object , sure. I don't see why not.

Just now, awayputurwpn said:

There you go. Air is matter and has mass. Therefore, by the logic that a blaster bolt can be a valid target, air can also be a target.

"Force push" problem solved.

Well, empty space is a vacuum, not an object,

Just now, Tramp Graphics said:

Well, empty space is a vacuum, not an object,

Ah ah ah, I said "air." Air has mass, and is therefore a physical object. Don't try to wriggle your way out of this one!

@Tramp Graphics has, by way of logic, admitted that both Move and Bind can be used to Force pull or Force push, people.

We can sleep better tonight knowing we've all worked hard to make the world a safer place.

34 minutes ago, awayputurwpn said:

What lore says that the Force can't stop blaster bolts??

Mainly the fact that what he's doing would have to be time manipulation, not telekinesis.

I mean think about what we're seeing.

A blaster bolt is plasma contained in a magnetic field, so if he's stopping the thing for several minutes that means he has to keep the plasma in a superheated state the entire time, and has to maintain the magnetic field the entire time, and is doing all this with the force without even paying attention to it.

Also when he leaves, the bolt continues on its original path, which simply wouldn't happen if he had actually physically stopped the bolt. I mean why would it? There is no momentum in a resting object. He would have to give it all of its original speed back intentionally for effect, even though there is nobody watching.

So Kylo Ren, a force user who is supposed to not be fully trained somehow has the ability to superheat plasma and create magnetic fields efforlessly? Why doesn't he just fire blaster bolts from his fingertips then? Why doesn't he just blow people apart by superheating their bodies? If you assume that everything he's doing is telekinesis or some kind of energy manipulation he'd be showing a level of power and control that no other character in the entire series ever shows before, and even he himself simply doesn't possess at any other point.

The only other explanation is that it's an entirely new power we've never seen before that actually slows down time for an object. It would explain why the blaster bolt stays intact for the duration and then continues on its path. It was neither stopped nor had its life extended artificially, it just was suspended in a time bubble of some kind.

So sure, there is nothing in the lore that says you can't have a force power that creates time bubbles that slow down objects in them, but why the hell would Kylo Ren of all people have this unique ability, and why doesn't he use it for anything else?

The easiest explanation to me is still that the writers just didn't think about any of this, they just wanted to recreate the scene where Vader stops a blaster bolt with his hand and make it even more impressive, and momentarily forgot that Kylo Ren is supposed to be less powerful than Vader.

4 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

I said the Blaster bolt can be a Target , as described in the base power's specific text as opposed to the overall Power's opening description.

Bind's movement upgrade specifically uses the term Immediately in regards to how quickly the target is moved to or from the user.

The key word here is "immediately". It's quick, sudden; one second he's one place, and the next he's been pushed back or pulled forward several (perhaps dozens of) meters in an instant. That means it is a high speed push or pull, not a slow, deliberate levitation.

I'm just going to point out that each turn encompasses a vague amount of time. The word immediately does not necessarily imply the target is moving at an extraordinary rate, it simply implies that by the end of the player's turn his/her target has moved the specified distance. It's not D&D where each turn is 6 seconds long. Hiw fast the target is moving is really up for narrative interpretation. It can be sudden and violent or it can be slower and more deliberate.

This isn't a d20 system where everything a player can do is determined by a rule book. The system is designed to be vague enough to allow for the players and gm to have a sense of narrative freedom.

10 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

I disagree, particularly when you take the side bar into account. And while the particular example given may be one involving unstructured time, that actual rules given in that side bar simply involve using powers outside of their predefined boundaries. to allow for things that may not be explicitly covered but are not abusive and still adhere reasonably close to the power's original design.

So about your interpretation of how the rules work...

Could I use Bind to constrict Force Lightning? How does it look when I send that back into the person that cast it? Surely there might be something that covers this power a little better, like the Mastery upgrade to Protect perhaps?

What about using Bind to constrict & crush someone's Lightsaber? If any physical object can be targeted, I guess Bind is the surefire way to defeat all lightsaber wielding adversaries by crushing their hilt.

Can I Bind someone's foot and move only it away, effectively de-limbing them because I'm only targeting the limb?

Since I can target anything, I guess this means I can use the base power of Bind and stop a silhouette 4-5 starship mid-ar then? There's no silhouette limit and by your interpretation I can effect any physical object right?

By your interpretation, Bind is a broken power. As I said before, the entirety of both pages explaining Bind points to the power being written to be used on NPCs and PCs, not "anything that is a physical object".

Otherwise, I could simply just get close enough to a Death Star to use Bind and Stagger it so that it can't fire its Superlaser... Hey guys! I saved Alderaan!

6 minutes ago, awayputurwpn said:

Ah ah ah, I said "air." Air has mass, and is therefore a physical object. Don't try to wriggle your way out of this one!

@Tramp Graphics has, by way of logic, admitted that both Move and Bind can be used to Force pull or Force push, people.

We can sleep better tonight knowing we've all worked hard to make the world a safer place.

Well, I never said they both couldn't. I specifically said it was a matter of intent . In other words, what are you trying to accomplish . Are you trying to hurl someone directly at someone else as a ranged attack with the explicit intent of causing physical injury or death to both individuals, or are you trying to push a target away from you or pull him to you at speed, potentially staggering him, but not necessarily hurting him ? If it is the former , you use the Move hurl upgrade. If it is the latter it is the Bind movement upgrade. Two different intents , two different uses . two different Powers used.

It could just be a different technique than Vader uses. Or they are playing on the fact that Vader was "more machine now than man," and therefore his Force ability was severely stunted from what he could have been. Doesn't have to be assumed that Kylo Ren is more powerful than Darth Vader...I never got that impression watching the film.

And regarding the blaster bolt, since when have Star Wars writers worried about physics? It's space opera. You're not supposed to worry about stuff like that. Loud flaming explosions, gouts of fire, and seismic charges in the vacuum of space. They just hand-wave it and get on with the awesomely stilted story.

Case in point: all you gotta do is say that "this is refined plasma," and voilà, you have your blaster bolt that can be held in place. Combine the scene with the mystical power of the Force, which requires no explanation because it's magic.

Yea, this game should totally contain a force power called "Because it's magic" that just does anything and requires no explanation. That would make for a fantastic RP system.

4 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Well, I never said they both couldn't. I specifically said it was a matter of intent . In other words, what are you trying to accomplish . Are you trying to hurl someone directly at someone else as a ranged attack with the explicit intent of causing physical injury or death to both individuals, or are you trying to push a target away from you or pull him to you at speed, potentially staggering him, but not necessarily hurting him ? If it is the former , you use the Move hurl upgrade. If it is the latter it is the Bind movement upgrade. Two different intents , two different uses . two different Powers used.

But if you throw someone at air, and all they hit is air, then they don't get hurt. "I intend not to hurt him, so I want to use Move to hurl the enemy 20 feet away into that pocket of air that is just 2 feet off the ground."

So there you have Force push.

This is your handywork, my good sir.

3 minutes ago, GroggyGolem said:

So about your interpretation of how the rules work...

Could I use Bind to constrict Force Lightning? How does it look when I send that back into the person that cast it? Surely there might be something that covers this power a little better, like the Mastery upgrade to Protect perhaps?

What about using Bind to constrict & crush someone's Lightsaber? If any physical object can be targeted, I guess Bind is the surefire way to defeat all lightsaber wielding adversaries by crushing their hilt.

Can I Bind someone's foot and move only it away, effectively de-limbing them because I'm only targeting the limb?

Since I can target anything, I guess this means I can use the base power of Bind and stop a silhouette 4-5 starship mid-ar then? There's no silhouette limit and by your interpretation I can effect any physical object right?

By your interpretation, Bind is a broken power. As I said before, the entirety of both pages explaining Bind points to the power being written to be used on NPCs and PCs, not "anything that is a physical object".

Otherwise, I could simply just get close enough to a Death Star to use Bind and Stagger it so that it can't fire its Superlaser... Hey guys! I saved Alderaan!

Against Force Lightning? No. It's not an object it's specifically an effect of the Force itself.

Could you use it to crush a weapon? sure, why not. We have seen that effect used in canon and the EU. Even against vehicles; particularly in the original Clone Wars micro series, so yes, I do see that as viable.

The problem with using Bind on something like a Capitol ship or the Death Star would certainly be a matter of range , not necessarily size, though their size alone puts most of their mass outside of the range of the power. Even with all of the range upgrades, ships of that size are likely to be outside of the power's maximum range, and the only part of them that is within range is really all you'd be able to "crush". However, technically, you can't stagger a vehicle.

1 minute ago, Aetrion said:

Yea, this game should totally contain a force power called "Because it's magic" that just does anything and requires no explanation. That would make for a fantastic RP system.

I don't think anyone else here has said anything of the sort. Of course there are rules. But there is also mysticism, and you've gotta appreciate it if you want the full Star Wars effect. That is part of being reasonable within the setting.

2 minutes ago, awayputurwpn said:

But if you throw someone at air, and all they hit is air, then they don't get hurt. "I intend not to hurt him, so I want to use Move to hurl the enemy 20 feet away into that pocket of air that is just 2 feet off the ground."

So there you have Force push.

This is your handywork, my good sir.

Nope. Hurl specifically causes damage to both the target as well as the projectile, so no matter what you are hurling your projectile at, that projectile (in this case a person) will take wound damage. IF you are not using the person as a weapon to inflict damage, but instead just pushing them backwards, or pulling them forwards, then Bind's movement upgrade is what should be used.

11 minutes ago, awayputurwpn said:

It could just be a different technique than Vader uses. Or they are playing on the fact that Vader was "more machine now than man," and therefore his Force ability was severely stunted from what he could have been. Doesn't have to be assumed that Kylo Ren is more powerful than Darth Vader...I never got that impression watching the film.

And regarding the blaster bolt, since when have Star Wars writers worried about physics? It's space opera. You're not supposed to worry about stuff like that. Loud flaming explosions, gouts of fire, and seismic charges in the vacuum of space. They just hand-wave it and get on with the awesomely stilted story.

Case in point: all you gotta do is say that "this is refined plasma," and voilà, you have your blaster bolt that can be held in place. Combine the scene with the mystical power of the Force, which requires no explanation because it's magic.

I agree, however, if you are trying to describe what we see in the movie using game terms, then Bind is really the only option for freezing the blaster bolt in place like that, particularly since it is definitely what Kylo used on Poe, and the game only allows one Force power to be activated per action.. It's not necessarily ideal , and I'm sure not what the game developers originally intended, but it is all we have in the game so far to emulate what we see on screen.

Just now, Tramp Graphics said:

I agree, however, if you are trying to describe what we see in the movie using game terms, then Bind is really the only option for freezing the blaster bolt in place like that. It's not necessarily ideal , and I'm sure not what the game developers originally intended, but it is all we have in the game so far to emulate what we see on screen.

Yeah I'm in agreement with you. Sorry, was responding there to Aetrion, but the forum didn't update me on the other replies during the time I was typing my response, so it ended up being a few posts under the post I was replying to

You can fire a blaster and let the bolt fly without actually trying to hit anything with it. Move/hurl is no different. There does not need to be a target if all you are trying to do is fling the "ammunition" with your Force Push.

27 minutes ago, Aetrion said:

Mainly the fact that what he's doing would have to be time manipulation, not telekinesis.

I mean think about what we're seeing.

A blaster bolt is plasma contained in a magnetic field, so if he's stopping the thing for several minutes that means he has to keep the plasma in a superheated state the entire time, and has to maintain the magnetic field the entire time, and is doing all this with the force without even paying attention to it.

Also when he leaves, the bolt continues on its original path, which simply wouldn't happen if he had actually physically stopped the bolt. I mean why would it? There is no momentum in a resting object. He would have to give it all of its original speed back intentionally for effect, even though there is nobody watching.

So Kylo Ren, a force user who is supposed to not be fully trained somehow has the ability to superheat plasma and create magnetic fields efforlessly? Why doesn't he just fire blaster bolts from his fingertips then? Why doesn't he just blow people apart by superheating their bodies? If you assume that everything he's doing is telekinesis or some kind of energy manipulation he'd be showing a level of power and control that no other character in the entire series ever shows before, and even he himself simply doesn't possess at any other point.

The only other explanation is that it's an entirely new power we've never seen before that actually slows down time for an object. It would explain why the blaster bolt stays intact for the duration and then continues on its path. It was neither stopped nor had its life extended artificially, it just was suspended in a time bubble of some kind.

So sure, there is nothing in the lore that says you can't have a force power that creates time bubbles that slow down objects in them, but why the hell would Kylo Ren of all people have this unique ability, and why doesn't he use it for anything else?

The easiest explanation to me is still that the writers just didn't think about any of this, they just wanted to recreate the scene where Vader stops a blaster bolt with his hand and make it even more impressive, and momentarily forgot that Kylo Ren is supposed to be less powerful than Vader.

In Rogue One Vader catches a blaster bolt, closes his hand around it, opens his hand and sends it back into a rebel soldier.

Seems to me that the powers that be are setting up a precedent for Kylo Ren's use of the force.

3 minutes ago, awayputurwpn said:

I don't think anyone else here has said anything of the sort. Of course there are rules. But there is also mysticism, and you've gotta appreciate it if you want the full Star Wars effect. That is part of being reasonable within the setting.

I have no issue with adding new and mysterious things, but a universe must be internally consistent, and giving Kylo Ren a completely new and unexplained power that he never uses again for anything and no other character has ever had is just not.

It's like that one time in Superman where he grabs the symbol on his suit and then tosses a cellophane S at Zod which momentarily wraps around him and then fades away. My suspension of disbelief isn't broken by the fact that there are flying aliens with laser eyes, but it is broken when they do stuff that doesn't make a lick of sense even in the fictional universe they inhabit.

1 minute ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Against Force Lightning? No. It's not an object it's specifically an effect of the Force itself.

Could you use it to crush a weapon? sure, why not. We have seen that effect used in canon and the EU. Even against vehicles; particularly in the original Clone Wars micro series, so yes, I do see that as viable.

The problem with using Bind on something like a Capitol ship or the Death Star would certainly be a matter of range , not necessarily size, though their size alone puts most of their mass outside of the range of the power. Even with all of the range upgrades, ships of that size are likely to be outside of the power's maximum range, and the only part of them that is within range is really all you'd be able to "crush". However, technically, you can't stagger a vehicle.

I'm fairly sure lightning has mass. Force lightning is actual lightning shooting from their fingertips. You said physical objects. If it's got mass, it's a physical object. Under your interpretation of the rules, this works.

Regarding the crushing of sabers, I guess we should totally just do that from now on. Lightsabers are now useless against anyone with Bind.

As per my example of the Starship/Death Star, I specified being in range of it to use the power. So let's say a YT-2400 comes flying by very close to try for a literal hit & run on you & in that time you Bind it... it should be well within the range of your power. So this works in your interpretation. Then you simply use the move portion to keep it within personal range Engaged & it can no longer fire on you, per the Gunnery rules.

For the Death Star, let's just say that you are near to the superlaser. Bind the mechanism of the superlaser, now it can't take actions or maneuver, which is part of the Bind power and if you're saying you can target a non-NPC or non-PC with Bind then surely you can prevent it from acting or moving, yes? So use Bind to prevent the inner workings of the machinery from moving.

Bind is now the best power.

10/10 defeated the Empire. Luke y u no do this to both Death Stars?

2 minutes ago, ghatt said:

In Rogue One Vader catches a blaster bolt, closes his hand around it, opens his hand and sends it back into a rebel soldier.

Seems to me that the powers that be are setting up a precedent for Kylo Ren's use of the force.

I don't agree, because redirecting a blaster bolt is entirely different from stopping it mid air for several minutes. Blaster bolts aren't bullets, they dissipate after a second or so. It's the huge increase in the lifetime of the bolt that breaks the consistency of the universe, not the fact that a character can manipulate blaster bolts.

4 minutes ago, Aetrion said:

I don't agree, because redirecting a blaster bolt is entirely different from stopping it mid air for several minutes. Blaster bolts aren't bullets, they dissipate after a second or so. It's the huge increase in the lifetime of the bolt that breaks the consistency of the universe, not the fact that a character can manipulate blaster bolts.

The blaster bolt was suspended in Vader's hand... or does Vader have a blaster pistol modded into his palm now?

just to add, we don't actually know how long a blaster bolt lasts in Star Wars other than what we saw in The Force Awakens as in all other instances the blaster bolt imediately hits a target, and thus transfers its energy into said target. Star Wars doesn't use real life physics, it uses space magic.

41 minutes ago, Aetrion said:

The only other explanation is that it's an entirely new power we've never seen before that actually slows down time for an object. It would explain why the blaster bolt stays intact for the duration and then continues on its path. It was neither stopped nor had its life extended artificially, it just was suspended in a time bubble of some kind.

Completely random thought that is off topic, but perhaps one of the two new forces powers in Disciples of Harmony will be able to recreate this effect? Perhaps maybe Ebb and Flow?

OK, you all may now continue your regularly scheduled logic disputes about whether or not Force Push/Pull is mechanically handled by the hurl upgrade in the Move Power Tree (hint: It is).

12 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

You can fire a blaster and let the bolt fly without actually trying to hit anything with it. Move/hurl is no different. There does not need to be a target if all you are trying to do is fling the "ammunition" with your Force Push.

Yes, but to use the Move Hurl upgrade, per RAW, you have to make a ranged attack against a target. So, yes, you do need a target, and you do inherently do wound damage to both the target and the projectile from the impact. That is what Hurl specifically does. That is all Hurl does. This is explicitly stated in its description.

Quote

The user gains the ability to move objects fast enough so as to be both difficult to dodge and capable of inflicting damage. Resulting impacts deal damage to both the target and object being moved. The user makes a Force Power check and rolls a ranged attack as part of the pool. The attack's difficulty is equal to the Silhouette of the object being thrown instead of the normal difficulty for ranged attacks, and only succeeds if the user can also spend enough FP to move the object. Silhouette 0 objects deal 5 damage, while other objects deal damage equal to ten times their silhouette. The number of targets affected by a single object is up to the GM, but in general, a single object should only affect a single target. If a player wants to use multiple objects to hit multipole targets, he may do so by using the rules for hitting multiple targets with the Auto-fire quality. This attack follows all rules for ranged attacks, including Ranged Defense and aiming.

Ergo, the Move hurl upgrade is specifically a ranged attack dealing damage, nothing more.

25 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

I agree, however, if you are trying to describe what we see in the movie using game terms, then Bind is really the only option for freezing the blaster bolt in place like that, particularly since it is definitely what Kylo used on Poe, and the game only allows one Force power to be activated per action.. It's not necessarily ideal , and I'm sure not what the game developers originally intended, but it is all we have in the game so far to emulate what we see on screen.

No actually I think Protect is the best power to explain it (based on what we have to go with), and further Kylo either had the control talent that let him use that power as an out of turn incidental, or he simply acted first in the 'round' and activated Protect before Poe got the shot off. The fact that it was suspended in air and whatnot was just narrative flair. To suggest it was the bind upgrade is just lunacy. You can't use bind on a blaster bolt.

And don't even try to claim "But the rules don't say you can't so therefore you can". No game author in their right mind writes rules that way.