3 minutes ago, ghatt said:

Been awhile since I've read that sidebar but isn't that scenario in reference to unstructured time? I suppose if you have the 'Force is My Ally' talent you could use move as a maneuver, but I don't think you can use it as an out of turn incidental in structured time. You could conceivably use a destiny point and convince the GM to allow it but that's pretty far from RAW I'd say.

No, it's not a reference to unstructured time. It's specifically about using certain powers in a broader fashion than explicitly stated. It's on page 286.

Well other then it being easily abused.

See when you shoot at someone it goes like this

Did they miss?

No

Did they hit?

Yes

Deal Damage.

There is no he froze my attack with 8 successes 2 triumphs and 4 advantage.

Its called common sense to not break the system.

Something you seem to lack entirely while complaining about how powerful move is and now I'm starting to understand why.

1 minute ago, Tramp Graphics said:

No, it's not a reference to unstructured time. It's specifically about using certain powers in a broader fashion than explicitly stated. It's on page 286.

Okay, I just dug the book out. The exact scenario the sidebar presents is in reference to unstructured time. It says "even though the players are not in structured time." So again, what?

See by your logic I could go I heal them with my unleash.

Unleash doesn't heal.

I expanded the power so it does....

29 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Yes, you can target it. Nothing in the rules says you can't. It is indeed an "object". It's a bolt of plasma. Plasma is matter. Thus a blaster bolt is an object, if you want to get technical.

If you want to get technical, the rules are not there to tell you what you can't do.

Rules are there to tell you what you can do.

There's few exceptions to this and it's usually just to clarify how exactly the thing you can do works.

So the argument of "it doesn't say I can't, so therefore I can" has no weight. It's like saying "it doesn't say my TIE Fighter can't launch itself into Hyperspace, so that means I can" when it's not listed as having a Hyperdrive.

UGH I posted about it again. Dude pulled me into the conversation from Extreme range.

As far as the whole "how did he stop the blaster bolt" thing, It's a creative and narrative use of either Poe's Despair, Kylo's Triumph or a Destiny Point flip. By the end of the scene, the blaster bolt didn't do anything meaningful, it just looked cool & intimidated Finn, the cowardly Soldier. That's definitely in the realm of Triumph/Despair/Destiny Point.

Oh for goodness' sake.

Calling a blaster bolt an enemy is silly.

Saying that you can't narrate a "Force push" with the Move power is silly.

@Tramp Graphics , just play the game! You'll get the hang of it and figure out how it works for you and your table.

I would recommend that you go ahead and be the GM. You are obviously reading the rules fairly thoroughly. Now put the rules away, grab one of the beginner games, and be the GM for a session or two. Let your players be awesome and have fun.

Speaking of being awesome, Kylo Ren could have just used the Bind power against Poe & activated the Staggered effect, and the GM decided to make it awesome by narrating the Bind power used against Poe's player thusly:

GM: "In one fluid motion, the dark figure suddenly activates his lightsaber and cuts down Lor."

Poe: "**** it, I shoot him!"

GM: "roll Cool for Initiative."

(Player rolls lower than Kylo Ren. Kylo goes first, and the GM rolls a handful of dice)

GM: "Seizing the moment, you aim for his helmeted head and take your shot. Inexplicably, your blaster bolt stops in midair. To your astonishment, you find that you yourself are frozen in place, unable to move a muscle.

"As you watch helplessly, stormtroopers surround you, grab you, and ro ughly escort you to their powerful master. You pass the glowing bolt of energy that had emanated from your rifle, still suspended in midair.

"They shove you to your knees in front of the dark Force user. You can feel his gaze burning into you as you through the jet-black visor."

Poe: "...so who talks first? I talk first? You talk first?"

30 minutes ago, awayputurwpn said:

Poe: "...so who talks first? I talk first? You talk first?"

Such a great line

8 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

You're missing the point. Everyone assumes that Force Push is an attack using the Hurl upgrade of Move used to cause damage when that is not the case. While the Move hurl upgrade is what's used for that particular purpose , that isn't really Force Push or Force Pull , not as originally depicted in the movies, games, etc. That's using someone as a projectile to hit someone else. The best examples of actual Force Push and Force Pull don't do damage . And even when they do, they're easily emulated by Bind's Mastery upgrade which either Staggers the target or causes a Critical Injury, depending upon whether any DSPs were used to calculate FPs.

Let's look at Kylo Ren. As depicted in TFA, the only two Force Powers we ever really see him use are Bind and Sense . He uses the base form of Bind against both Poe Dameron (and his blaster bolt) and Rey to immobilize them. He also uses the movement upgradeto pull that First Oder officer to him and again to push Rey back several meters. In the last case, he also uses Bind's Mastety upgrade to inflict a critical injury (since, as a Dark Side character he must use DSPs to generate FPs without suffering Strain), rolling a 21-25) on the Percentile dice +10 resulting in Staggering Rey. Note that Rey was not actually physically hurt, just stunned for a minute or so. This why it is the Bind movement upgrade combined with its Mastery upgrade being used, and not Move's Hurl upgrade. if it were Hurl Kylo had used, Rey would have suffered 10 Wounds of actual damage and likely have been completely incapacitated, or nearly so. Instead, all that happened was she got stunned briefly and recovered completely within a minute or two. No actual damage was inflicted . That is why it was not the Move Hurl upgrade, but rather Bind's movement upgrade which was used.

No we don't. You keep assuming we do when quite clearly at several points we have pointed out you can use move with out hurling people into objects. This is all on you insisting there is only one way to do force push. There is not. And Move which is designed to move objects is a better power for just moving an object.

17 hours ago, DaverWattra said:

Tramp, it would help I think if you give a description in turn order of what happened according to you.

As I see the events play out in game terms, Poe wins initiative against Kylo Ren, but only just, and makes his ranged attack with the difficulty upgraded twice (by Kylo's ranks in Adversary), and rolls two Despairs . The GM uses the Despairs to allow Kylo to immediately react to Poe's shot and activate Bind, spending the second Despair and his FPs to activate the base power and magnitude upgrades to immediately freeze Poe and his blaster bolt in place along with some duration ugrades to maintain his hold on both as his troopers then drag Poe to him. Her maintains the power until after the villagers are slaughtered, then drops it allowing the bolt to continue on its path into a pole.

14 hours ago, Daeglan said:

No we don't. You keep assuming we do when quite clearly at several points we have pointed out you can use move with out hurling people into objects. This is all on you insisting there is only one way to do force push. There is not. And Move which is designed to move objects is a better power for just moving an object.

You can use Move without Hurl to move an object slowly. That is the difference. The Devs have made that clear even after F&D came out, Without the Hurl upgrade, any use of Move is very slow and deliberate , which is why it is not effective as a means of "flight". It is too slow. This was brought up in one of the Order 66 Podcasts a while back. This is why the base Move power does not work for Force Push or Force Pull . It's too slow. The Hurl upgrade allows you to use Move to throw projectiles at someone, but without it Move is very slow, no more than walking speed . Force Push and Force Pull are immediate movements at faster speeds, but not necessarily ranged attacks to hit other people to cause damage. This is where the Bind movement upgrade comes in as it allows for a fast movement of a target pulled to or pushed away from the user without necessarily hitting someone else or causing damage , though with other upgrades (such as the Mastery upgrade) you could still cause actual damage to your intended target, or simply stagger him without actually physically hurting or potentially killing him. That is the difference. Force Push and Force Pull move a target at speed but do not necessarily inflict actual damage to him. And Move , without the Hurl upgrade does not allow for fast movement of a target , and Hurl specifically uses the "object" being hurled as a projectile using a ranged attack to hit other targets strictly for wound damage. This is why Bind's movement upgrade better reflects Force Push and Force Pull unless you're specifically using your "victim" to hit someone else.

6 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

You can use Move without Hurl to move an object slowly. That is the difference. The Devs have made that clear even after F&D came out, Without the Hurl upgrade, any use of Move is very slow and deliberate , which is why it is not effective as a means of "flight". It is too slow. This was brought up in one of the Order 66 Podcasts a while back. This is why the base Move power does not work for Force Push or Force Pull . It's too slow. The Hurl upgrade allows you to use Move to throw projectiles at someone, but without it Move is very slow, no more than walking speed . Force Push and Force Pull are immediate movements at faster speeds, but not necessarily ranged attacks to hit other people to cause damage. This is where the Bind movement upgrade comes in as it allows for a fast movement of a target pulled to or pushed away from the user without necessarily hitting someone else or causing damage , though with other upgrades (such as the Mastery upgrade) you could still cause actual damage to your intended target, or simply stagger him without actually physically hurting or potentially killing him. That is the difference. Force Push and Force Pull move a target at speed but do not necessarily inflict actual damage to him. And Move , without the Hurl upgrade does not allow for fast movement of a target , and Hurl specifically uses the "object" being hurled as a projectile using a ranged attack to hit other targets strictly for wound damage. This is why Bind's movement upgrade better reflects Force Push and Force Pull unless you're specifically using your "victim" to hit someone else.

This has been covered multiple times by people here. You still keep ignoring the rest of that description. I find it interesting that you seem to ignore the very next sentence regarding what can be done with the power.

I think the movie writers just thought stopping a blaster bolt mid air would look cool on screen and didn't waste a single thought on how completely that contradicts all of the lore of the universe.

19 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

As I see the events play out in game terms, Poe wins initiative against Kylo Ren, but only just, and makes his ranged attack with the difficulty upgraded twice (by Kylo's ranks in Adversary), and rolls two Despairs . The GM uses the Despairs to allow Kylo to immediately react to Poe's shot and activate Bind, spending the second Despair and his FPs to activate the base power and magnitude upgrades to immediately freeze Poe and his blaster bolt in place along with some duration ugrades to maintain his hold on both as his troopers then drag Poe to him. Her maintains the power until after the villagers are slaughtered, then drops it allowing the bolt to continue on its path into a pole.

Save for very special effects in the game, one cannot take their full turn out of order. I'm assuming you mean that Poe's initial attack was actually going to hit but the Despairs changed that? That would be a problem in my opinion, because after cancelling results, if there's Success with Despair, Kylo is still getting hit by the attack.

Now if it was a failure with Despair, then absolutely spend 1 Despair to freeze the blaster bolt to look cool & intimidating but not in any way by actual game mechanics of Force Powers. The reason I say not through game mechanics is because the base power specifically talks about using it on enemies, restricting them from acting. Per the game rules, blaster shots can't take actions because they are not NPCs or PCs. Furthermore, in the full description of the power, it calls out the ability to spend dark side points to make the target suffer wounds, another thing that can't happen to blaster bolts, as they are neither PC or NPC. If you continue to look at the full descriptions of the upgrades for Bind, they talk about the target, using the word "he", as in, to denote an NPC or PC and not something inanimate like a blaster bolt. For instance, you cannot immobilize or stagger or disorient or critically injure something that isn't an NPC or PC.

The 2nd Despair can be spent to upgrade Kylo's Discipline check on his use of Bind. There's only a single Duration upgrade for Bind, which requires the user have 3 Force Rating & commit those 3 dice to continue the effects.

6 minutes ago, Aetrion said:

I think the movie writers just thought stopping a blaster bolt mid air would look cool on screen and didn't waste a single thought on how completely that contradicts all of the lore of the universe.

It was very cool. The kind of moment where you realize "Oh s***, I just bit off way more than I can chew." Excellent RP moment in a game as well.

What lore says that the Force can't stop blaster bolts??

2 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

This has been covered multiple times by people here. You still keep ignoring the rest of that description.

No, I'm not. I've read the full description of Move, and all of its upgrades, and I've listened to the Devs rulings on how fast Move's base power can be used. They were very explicit stating that Move , without the hurl upgrade, is very, very slow . This is why thew Base Move power does not work for a general Force Push or Force Pull . It is too slow. Move only works at speed if you're using the Force to hurl a "victim" into another victim as a ranged attack for damage using the Hurl upgrade. That is the key here. The Hurl upgrade is the only way to use Move to move something quickly , and then only as a ranged attack against a third party.

4 minutes ago, GroggyGolem said:

Save for very special effects in the game, one cannot take their full turn out of order. I'm assuming you mean that Poe's initial attack was actually going to hit but the Despairs changed that? That would be a problem in my opinion, because after cancelling results, if there's Success with Despair, Kylo is still getting hit by the attack.

Now if it was a failure with Despair, then absolutely spend 1 Despair to freeze the blaster bolt to look cool & intimidating but not in any way by actual game mechanics of Force Powers. The reason I say not through game mechanics is because the base power specifically talks about using it on enemies, restricting them from acting. Per the game rules, blaster shots can't take actions because they are not NPCs or PCs. Furthermore, in the full description of the power, it calls out the ability to spend dark side points to make the target suffer wounds, another thing that can't happen to blaster bolts, as they are neither PC or NPC. If you continue to look at the full descriptions of the upgrades for Bind, they talk about the target, using the word "he", as in, to denote an NPC or PC and not something inanimate like a blaster bolt. For instance, you cannot immobilize or stagger or disorient or critically injure something that isn't an NPC or PC.

The 2nd Despair can be spent to upgrade Kylo's Discipline check on his use of Bind. There's only a single Duration upgrade for Bind, which requires the user have 3 Force Rating & commit those 3 dice to continue the effects.

Yes, Failure with Despair. I probably should have clarified that. As for the base power. The actual rules text on the base power, not the overview text . says " target " not " enemy ".

right. But by your attitude Move has 2 speeds super fast and super slow. a person couldnt possibly do anything in between.

1 minute ago, Daeglan said:

right. But by your attitude Move has 2 speeds super fast and super slow. a person couldnt pussibly do anything in between.

By the Rules and by the Developers statements , there are indeed only two speeds: Slow (no more than walking speed) or fast (as a projectile). There is no in between according to the developers themselves. So yes, my "attitude" is that Move only has two speeds. And this was confirmed by the Developers.

If a blaster bolt can be an enemy, then "the empty space behind him" can be the third party you hurl them towards. See, we can all pull rulings from our nether regions.

So what makes you think that the Bind upgrade is any different in its speed?

11 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

As for the base power. The actual rules text on the base power, not the overview text . says " target " not " enemy ".

I believe you have to take it all into account and you shouldn't be looking solely at one instance of the written descriptions for the target. Between the power at the top, the full description of the base power and the description and use of all the other aspects of the power, it's pretty clear that a target is a PC or NPC.

For instance, the power overview "the user restrains an enemy, preventing the target from acting". Okay, so enemy & target are synonymous here.

Then we have the full description which includes the beginning section of "Bind's basic power allows the Force user to restrain those nearby, preventing them from harming others and themselves." Themselves? Definitely not talking about blaster bolts here.

Further on is all the descriptive words indicating this power is meant to be used on PC's and NPC's, such as all the examples I gave in my last post. Heck, there's the initial paragraph explaining what Bind is all about, which clearly and bluntly shows the power is used for targeting NPCs and PCs. Words such as others, them, enemy, him, not used to describe things like blaster bolts, especially when taking in the entire context of everything written on those 2 pages.

1 minute ago, HappyDaze said:

If a blaster bolt can be an enemy, then "the empty space behind him" can be the third party you hurl them towards. See, we can all pull rulings from our nether regions.

I said the Blaster bolt can be a Target , as described in the base power's specific text as opposed to the overall Power's opening description.

1 minute ago, Richardbuxton said:

So what makes you think that the Bind upgrade is any different in its speed?

Bind's movement upgrade specifically uses the term Immediately in regards to how quickly the target is moved to or from the user.

Quote

Control Upgrade: Spend FP to immediately move the target one range band toward or away from the user.

The key word here is "immediately". It's quick, sudden; one second he's one place, and the next he's been pushed back or pulled forward several (perhaps dozens of) meters in an instant. That means it is a high speed push or pull, not a slow, deliberate levitation.

Well then, empty space can be a target too.

2 minutes ago, GroggyGolem said:

I believe you have to take it all into account and you shouldn't be looking solely at one instance of the written descriptions for the target. Between the power at the top, the full description of the base power and the description and use of all the other aspects of the power, it's pretty clear that a target is a PC or NPC.

For instance, the power overview "the user restrains an enemy, preventing the target from acting". Okay, so enemy & target are synonymous here.

Then we have the full description which includes the beginning section of "Bind's basic power allows the Force user to restrain those nearby, preventing them from harming others and themselves." Themselves? Definitely not talking about blaster bolts here.

Further on is all the descriptive words indicating this power is meant to be used on PC's and NPC's, such as all the examples I gave in my last post. Heck, there's the initial paragraph explaining what Bind is all about, which clearly and bluntly shows the power is used for targeting NPCs and PCs. Words such as others, them, enemy, him, not used to describe things like blaster bolts, especially when taking in the entire context of everything written on those 2 pages.

I disagree, particularly when you take the side bar into account. And while the particular example given may be one involving unstructured time, that actual rules given in that side bar simply involve using powers outside of their predefined boundaries. to allow for things that may not be explicitly covered but are not abusive and still adhere reasonably close to the power's original design.