Perhaps you should bold every third word for him ?

lol, it doesn't matter. I'd certainly allow both to accomplish similar feats. Do what you want at your table, Tramp. That's between you and your players and/or GM. You're not going to convince these guys. This isn't a black and white system. What and how a player accomplishes feats is really up to the players themselves and if they can convince their GM to allow it. I'm of the school of thought that if a player comes up with something cool I'll probably allow them to make an attempt. Depending on what it is and how they try to accomplish said task I'll adjust the difficulty and requirements as I see fit.

3 hours ago, ghatt said:

You guys realize that both powers can be used to simulate force push and pull, right? This system tends to have multiple approaches to get the same outcomes. It's a narrative system.

Well Bind only does it in a very specific way and is in no way the best method to replicate push and pull.

Its like claiming I can drive a car by steering it with my mouth.

Yes I can, but its really not the best way to do it.

What Tramp keeps on failing to understand is

1. Its more expensive

2. Its much harder to do

3. Its limited to a single range band

4. It can't inflict damage

Sadly as I have shown Push/Pull is used by Jedi to hurt people and things and he does not understand this for some reason.

4 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Let's look at Kylo Ren. As depicted in TFA, the only two Force Powers we ever really see him use are Bind and Sense . He uses the base form of Bind against both Poe Dameron (and his blaster bolt) and Rey to immobilize them. He also uses the movement upgradeto pull that First Oder officer to him and again to push Rey back several meters. In the last case, he also uses Bind's Mastety upgrade to inflict a critical injury (since, as a Dark Side character he must use DSPs to generate FPs without suffering Strain), rolling a 21-25) on the Percentile dice +10 resulting in Staggering Rey. Note that Rey was not actually physically hurt, just stunned for a minute or so.

Well, Bind can't stop blaster bolts. I would've thought Ren's stopping Poe's blaster bolt was a use of Protect that was narrated to fit with his overall style of using the Force.

Also, I would've thought that when Kylo puts Rey to sleep by waving his hand in front of her face, that would be best represented mechanically by him using the Influence power to inflict strain on her (which I've always understood to function as this system's version of the Saga Edition Force Stun power among many other uses).

So he doesn't just use those two powers. But of a digression I guess...

5 minutes ago, Decorus said:

Well Bind only does it in a very specific way and is in no way the best method to replicate push and pull.

Its like claiming I can drive a car by steering it with my mouth.

Yes I can, but its really not the best way to do it.

What Tramp keeps on failing to understand is

1. Its more expensive

2. Its much harder to do

3. Its limited to a single range band

4. It can't inflict damage

Sadly as I have shown Push/Pull is used by Jedi to hurt people and things and he does not understand this for some reason.

The Bind movement upgrade emulates Force Push and Force Pull exactly . Force Push and Force Pull don't inherently cause damage. How hard it is to do and how "expensive" it is are irrelevant. And it " can " cause damage if you combine it with other upgrades , particularly the Mastery upgrade . What Force Push and Force Pull do not inherently do is use the target as a projectile to hit another target explicitly to cause damage. Force Push and Force Pull primarily push a target away from the user or pull the target to the user. Those effects are the purview of the Bind movement upgrade.

3 minutes ago, DaverWattra said:

Well, Bind can't stop blaster bolts. I would've thought Ren's stopping Poe's blaster bolt was a use of Protect that was narrated to fit with his overall style of using the Force.

Also, I would've thought that when Kylo puts Rey to sleep by waving his hand in front of her face, that would be best represented mechanically by him using the Influence power to inflict strain on her (which I've always understood to function as this system's version of the Saga Edition Force Stun power among many other uses).

So he doesn't just use those two powers. But of a digression I guess...

Says who. All Bind says in that regard is that the base power can immobilize a target . IT does not say living target. A blaster bolt can be considered a target. And, if you look at what Kylo Ren did, he immobilized both Poe and his blaster bolt simultaneously . In game terms, by RAW, that requires the use of only one Power, since you can't activate two powers at the same time. And Bind's base power is the only power specifically designed to immobilize a target.

19 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Says who. All Bind says in that regard is that the base power can immobilize a target . IT does not say living target. A blaster bolt can be considered a target.

"The Force user restrains an enemy, preventing the target from acting." I suppose in a sense a blaster bolt aimed at your head is an enemy, but only figuratively speaking...

Also, Bind can't be used as an out-of-turn incidental, which it would have to be in order to target an incoming attack.

Edit: One thing to notice is that 'immobilize' has a specific meaning in the rules: an immobilized target can't perform maneuvers. A blaster bolt isn't the sort of entity that can perform maneuvers in the first place.

Okay I want to force push someone to extreme range oh wait Bind can't do that.

I want to Force Pull someone from Extreme range oh wait Bind can't do that.

Bind has officially failed to emulate Force Push Pull.

Yes Force Push and Pull do not in of itself inflict damage its the sudden stop at the end that causes the damage.

Move's primary purpose is to move things from all ranges. It can also be used to move people into solid objects like we have seen done with Force Push/Pull many times.

Your problem and this is a big one is you can't seem to grasp any of that.

Which I don't understand please explain how you can't grasp this.

17 minutes ago, DaverWattra said:

"The Force user restrains an enemy, preventing the target from acting." I suppose in a sense a blaster bolt aimed at your head is an enemy, but only figuratively speaking...

Also, Bind can't be used as an out-of-turn incidental, which it would have to be in order to target an incoming attack.

Technically, no Force Power can be used as an "out of turn incidental". As for your quote from the Bind power, read the actual description of the base power again:

Quote

User may spend FP to immobilize a target within short range until the end of user's next turn.

16 minutes ago, Decorus said:

Okay I want to force push someone to extreme range oh wait Bind can't do that.

I want to Force Pull someone from Extreme range oh wait Bind can't do that.

Bind has officially failed to emulate Force Push Pull.

Yes Force Push and Pull do not in of itself inflict damage its the sudden stop at the end that causes the damage.

Move's primary purpose is to move things from all ranges. It can also be used to move people into solid objects like we have seen done with Force Push/Pull many times.

Your problem and this is a big one is you can't seem to grasp any of that.

Which I don't understand please explain how you can't grasp this.

If you watch the movies, Force Push never pushes a target that far , not even close to that far. It is always a relatively short distance. Even when Kanaan Force Pushed Ezra across the chasm on Geonosis, it was only going from Short range to Medium range. Not only that, but if you have enough range upgrades, you can use Bind's movement upgrade to push your target from Long Range to Extreme range. In fact, you could start at Engaged to short one round, Short to Meduim the second, Medium to Long the third, and Long to extreme the Fourth. Yes, it takes four uses of the movement upgrade, but it can be done. Thus, that argument is invalid. As for the "sudden stop" causing damage, no, in most instances of Force Push , no damage is ever inflicted. At most the target is usually staggered. Most instances of Force Push simply push people backwards a relatively short distance. Palpatine was unhurt when Yoda Force Pushed him. His Guards could be considered Staggered , not necessarily wounded . This is easily covered by Bind's movement upgrade combined with its Mastery upgrade. We don't see them killed by Force Push .

To repeat my edit above, which you probably missed: One thing to notice is that 'immobilize' has a specific meaning in the rules: an immobilized target can't perform maneuvers. A blaster bolt isn't the sort of entity that can perform maneuvers in the first place. So it can't be 'immobilized.'

3 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Technically, no Force Power can be used as an "out of turn incidental".

Protect and Suppress both have upgrades that allow them to be used as out-of-turn incidentals by spending a DP. But probably what Kylo Ren actually did rules-wise to stop Poe's shot was to activate Protect using his action during his previous turn. Makes sense, since he was still walking around a battlefield. (Since Poe's shot did not exist during Kylo's previous turn, Kylo can't have used Bind to "immobilize" it with his previous action.)

Except you aren't reading the actual rules.

Bind can only upgrade that once.

You can only move someone 1 range band ever with Bind.

How do you know Palpatine was unhurt? Usually when I get shoved into something it hurts. It may not be immediately apparent, but damage is done to my body.

I still recall getting a concussion and a nasty gash when my Sister pushed me into a piano. I also recall her breaking one of my front teeth when she pushed me to the ground.

You do understand move against a person will only inflict 10 damage which can be soaked pretty easily.

Actually his guards were knocked out.

Just now, DaverWattra said:

To repeat my edit above, which you probably missed: One thing to notice is that 'immobilize' has a specific meaning in the rules: an immobilized target can't perform maneuvers. A blaster bolt isn't the sort of entity that can perform maneuvers in the first place. So it can't be 'immobilized.'

Protect and Suppress both have upgrades that allow them to be used as out-of-turn incidentals by spending a DP. But probably what Kylo Ren actually did rules-wise to stop Poe's shot was to activate Protect using his action during his previous turn. Makes sense, since he was still walking around a battlefield. (Since Poe's shot did not exist during Kylo's previous turn, Kylo can't have used Bind to "immobilize" it with his previous action.)

Nope. Because Poe and his blaster bolt were immobilized simultaneously . And in both of those cases you cite, it requires a particular upgrade to use the power as an out of turn incidental. It's not an inherent part of the power to start.

I should add, I agree with you otherwise about your descriptions of Kylo using Bind. I think that's exactly what he does to Rey, Poe and probably the First Order officer.

3 minutes ago, Decorus said:

Except you aren't reading the actual rules.

Bind can only upgrade that once.

You can only move someone 1 range band ever with Bind.

How do you know Palpatine was unhurt? Usually when I get shoved into something it hurts. It may not be immediately apparent, but damage is done to my body.

I still recall getting a concussion and a nasty gash when my Sister pushed me into a piano. I also recall her breaking one of my front teeth when she pushed me to the ground.

You do understand move against a person will only inflict 10 damage which can be soaked pretty easily.

Actually his guards were knocked out.

Yes, I did read the rules. Let's break it down:

Round one: Force Push the target back from Engaged to Short.

Round 2 Push him back from Short to Medium.

Round 3 Push him back from Medium to Long

Round Four, push him back from Long to Extreme.

Four rounds, Four uses of Bind's movment upgrade.

2 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Nope. Because Poe and his blaster bolt were immobilized simultaneously .

I don't understand what it means, rules-wise, to immobilize something other than a character. Because the game's definition of "immobilize" is "can't perform maneuvers."

It might help to clarify our disagreement if you gave your description, in terms of the game's rules, of what happened after Poe fired his blaster rifle at Ren?

Which is not what is done in the movies or toons.

Ezra would have done this:

I force leap I don't make it.

Kanaan uses bind

I fall to my death.

The only way to do that is to use Move.

Which invalidates your entire arguement.

1 minute ago, DaverWattra said:

I don't understand what it means, rules-wise, to immobilize something other than a character. Because the game's definition of "immobilize" is "can't perform maneuvers."

It might help to clarify our disagreement if you gave your description, in terms of the game's rules, of what happened after Poe fired his blaster rifle at Ren?

While, you can say that the bolt can't use "maneuvers" persay, IT does move, and in most instances, that is a Maneuver. Also, if you read the side bar, the powers are meant to be road inscope, so stretching it to include the blaster bolt is not out of the question.

Rules as written you can not use bind to replicate Kylo Ren's freeze blaster bolt in mid air.

Rules as written you can not use anything to replicate it since when he stops holding it in place it still does damage.

You would have to add another mastery to Bind that allows it to freeze objects in place.

7 minutes ago, Decorus said:

Rules as written you can not use bind to replicate Kylo Ren's freeze blaster bolt in mid air.

Rules as written you can not use anything to replicate it since when he stops holding it in place it still does damage.

You would have to add another mastery to Bind that allows it to freeze objects in place.

Yes, the rules as written do allow it. It's covered by the side bar which allows the power broader use than explicitly stated. The example given being the use of Bind or Move to stop someone from falling to his death. Therefore the blaster bolt is a viable "target". And, of course, once it is no longer immobilized, it would continue on its course.

What target there is nothing to target.

2 minutes ago, Decorus said:

What target there is nothing to target.

The target is the blaster bolt. That, along with Poe, was the target of Kylo's Bind power.

That isn't something you can target its not an object in the game its not anything at all really.

12 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Yes, the rules as written do allow it. It's covered by the side bar which allows the power broader use than explicitly stated. The example given being the use of Bind or Move to stop someone from falling to his death. Therefore the blaster bolt is a viable "target". And, of course, once it is no longer immobilized, it would continue on its course.

Been awhile since I've read that sidebar but isn't that scenario in reference to unstructured time? I suppose if you have the 'Force is My Ally' talent you could use move as a maneuver, but I don't think you can use it as an out of turn incidental in structured time. You could conceivably use a destiny point and convince the GM to allow it but that's stretching it if you're just going off of RAW.

1 minute ago, Decorus said:

That isn't something you can target its not an object in the game its not anything at all really.

Yes, you can target it. Nothing in the rules says you can't. It is indeed an "object". It's a bolt of plasma. Plasma is matter. Thus a blaster bolt is an object, if you want to get technical.

Tramp, it would help I think if you give a description in turn order of what happened according to you.