No wonder Move is over powered in your game, you have effectively raised the Force Point cost of half the Force Powers by one!

I haven't even started a campaign yet. I'm just going by the RAW. And I never said Move was "overpowered either". That's Aetrion's view. I just said that Force Push and Force Pull were more accurately emulated by the Bind movement upgrade.

Actually I think they do Tramp.

The Enhance power has 8 different ways to use the power without having to use the basic power. You don't have to spend a Point on a phantom Athletics check to be able to spend other points on the Piloting check your actually making. Committing a die doesn't even involve rolling dice.

The Influence "mind trick" Control Upgrade is clear that you only need to spend a single Force Point and succeed on the check to be able to effect your target. You don't have to activate the Basic power as well. Same for the Control upgrade to add Force Dice to a social check, your not required to stress the mind of your target before adding success/Advantage

Well, I didn't say "activate" either. In both cases, you still need to pay the FP cost, even if you don't activate the base but instead the Upgrade's effects. Even with Enhance, you do still need to pay the base FP cost plus the cost of the upgrade before using the upgrade, even if you don't want to boost to your athletics. The same with Influence. Activating the upgrade simply overrides the base power's Strain effect, but you still need to pay the full FP cost of the base power as well as the upgrade even if only to use the upgrade. The base cost must always be paid even if you're only doing it to activate the "alternate effect" provided by the Control upgrade. Neither of those two powers say you can forego paying the base FP cost of the power to use the upgrade. The base cost is just that, the base cost .

I think my vertigo just kicked in from the twisted logic being used here. Tramp please tell me you are not actually saying that to use the Enhance upgrade to, for example Force Jump, you have to first spend 1 FP to activate some phantom use of a Athletics check. Because that is just plain wrong on so many levels.

Actually, that is exactly how I read it. The base cost is always paid, as far as I know, based upon the RAW. Unless the book actually says differently.

So you're telling me, when the rules for the Enhance basic power (let's just stick with that example) state "When making an Athletics check, the user may roll an Enhance Power check as part of of the pool." and you're not taking an action that requires you to roll an athletics check, you still interpret that to mean you have to somehow activate the base power before you can activate the Control upgrade to Force Leap?

This is to say nothing of the supposed legality of rolling a Force Power Check as part of a skill check that is not even being attempted.

I'll come up with a full list of ways to activate each Force Power some time soon, but in the short term I'll just say that quite a few control upgrades provide new ways to use a force power rather than just enhancing the base power.

I'll come up with a full list of ways to activate each Force Power some time soon, but in the short term I'll just say that quite a few control upgrades provide new ways to use a force power rather than just enhancing the base power.

yep. Which is why the Bind power's movement upgrade does not necessarily immobilize the target (whether or not you need to pay the base FP cost). Reading the book, on page 283, it says this about Control upgrades in general:

Control: Control upgrades add new effects to Force powers, or modify existing effects (adding or changing the way the Force-sensitive character spends Force Points).

That exact piece you quoted is why you don't need to spend a Force Point on the basic Enhance when activating a control upgrade. You can spend all your Points on Piloting Success/Advantage since the control upgrade provides a modification to an existing effect, ie a new option effect for the basic power.

Now as to the Bind power I can absolutely see it going both ways, which is why i put that question in the list to the developers

No wonder Move is over powered in your game, you have effectively raised the Force Point cost of half the Force Powers by one!

I haven't even started a campaign yet. I'm just going by the RAW. And I never said Move was "overpowered either". That's Aetrion's view. I just said that Force Push and Force Pull were more accurately emulated by the Bind movement upgrade.

...did it ever occur to you that maybe you should actually play a game before deciding you're an authority on it?

No wonder Move is over powered in your game, you have effectively raised the Force Point cost of half the Force Powers by one!

I haven't even started a campaign yet. I'm just going by the RAW. And I never said Move was "overpowered either". That's Aetrion's view. I just said that Force Push and Force Pull were more accurately emulated by the Bind movement upgrade.

...did it ever occur to you that maybe you should actually play a game before deciding you're an authority on it?

I never claimed to be an "authority" on it. I'm simply reading the rules as they're written. And reading the rules as they are written, the Bind movement upgrade more accurately emulates Force Push and Force Pull than Move's hurl upgrade does.

As for playing the game, I'm working on that.

No wonder Move is over powered in your game, you have effectively raised the Force Point cost of half the Force Powers by one!

I haven't even started a campaign yet. I'm just going by the RAW. And I never said Move was "overpowered either". That's Aetrion's view. I just said that Force Push and Force Pull were more accurately emulated by the Bind movement upgrade.

...did it ever occur to you that maybe you should actually play a game before deciding you're an authority on it?

I never claimed to be an "authority" on it.

You act as if you are in just about every post you make. Heck, take this post you just made: https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/239847-the-golden-age-of-force-users/?p=2598899

I've got to disagree with this ranking. It's way off the charts. At best it should be:

You have no way of knowing that, because you've never actually seen how those Force Rankings shake out in actual play. Yet you don't say "I haven't played, but I think..." or "Just from reading, not playing, it seems to me like.." You say "It's way off the charts," as if you're the authority ON the "charts."

Actually I think they do Tramp.

The Enhance power has 8 different ways to use the power without having to use the basic power. You don't have to spend a Point on a phantom Athletics check to be able to spend other points on the Piloting check your actually making. Committing a die doesn't even involve rolling dice.

The Influence "mind trick" Control Upgrade is clear that you only need to spend a single Force Point and succeed on the check to be able to effect your target. You don't have to activate the Basic power as well. Same for the Control upgrade to add Force Dice to a social check, your not required to stress the mind of your target before adding success/Advantage

Well, I didn't say "activate" either. In both cases, you still need to pay the FP cost, even if you don't activate the base but instead the Upgrade's effects. Even with Enhance, you do still need to pay the base FP cost plus the cost of the upgrade before using the upgrade, even if you don't want to boost to your athletics. The same with Influence. Activating the upgrade simply overrides the base power's Strain effect, but you still need to pay the full FP cost of the base power as well as the upgrade even if only to use the upgrade. The base cost must always be paid even if you're only doing it to activate the "alternate effect" provided by the Control upgrade. Neither of those two powers say you can forego paying the base FP cost of the power to use the upgrade. The base cost is just that, the base cost .

I think my vertigo just kicked in from the twisted logic being used here. Tramp please tell me you are not actually saying that to use the Enhance upgrade to, for example Force Jump, you have to first spend 1 FP to activate some phantom use of a Athletics check. Because that is just plain wrong on so many levels.

Actually, that is exactly how I read it. The base cost is always paid, as far as I know, based upon the RAW. Unless the book actually says differently.

So you're telling me, when the rules for the Enhance basic power (let's just stick with that example) state "When making an Athletics check, the user may roll an Enhance Power check as part of of the pool." and you're not taking an action that requires you to roll an athletics check, you still interpret that to mean you have to somehow activate the base power before you can activate the Control upgrade to Force Leap?

This is to say nothing of the supposed legality of rolling a Force Power Check as part of a skill check that is not even being attempted.

As far as whether Bind or Move is better for Force push, wasn't that rendered moot? I could've sworn that attacking somebody with raw, pure Force energy (a telekinetic attack) was a different power (whose name escapes me as I haven't played/looked at my book for far too long...). Man, it's been a while since I opened this can of worms.

EDIT: I reread through the confusing posts and TG, you are mistaken. You don't need to pay a base cost then an upgrade cost to say, Force Leap. You only need to roll your Force rating as an action (or maneuver, if that upgrade has been purchased), get 1 FP and you can then leap to whatever range band your upgrades allow. You don't need to pay the cost of the basic power (enhancing an Athletics check) then pay an additional cost to use Force leap. The Force leap upgrade simply replaces use of the basic power.

Where it can get potentially confusing is if you have Force leap as a maneuver and use a Force power as your action. In this case, you simply roll for the Force leap maneuver and leap, then roll your full Force rating again for the power used as an action.

I need to play Star Wars soon...

As for playing the game, I'm working on that.

Good luck getting your game together! If you can't do something locally, or if timing is an issue, I would suggest starting play-by-post on a forum and practicing your GMing there. The format gives you plenty of time to look up rules and get your thoughts together, whereas cracking open a rulebook at a live play session would slow things down way too much.

Actually I think they do Tramp.

The Enhance power has 8 different ways to use the power without having to use the basic power. You don't have to spend a Point on a phantom Athletics check to be able to spend other points on the Piloting check your actually making. Committing a die doesn't even involve rolling dice.

The Influence "mind trick" Control Upgrade is clear that you only need to spend a single Force Point and succeed on the check to be able to effect your target. You don't have to activate the Basic power as well. Same for the Control upgrade to add Force Dice to a social check, your not required to stress the mind of your target before adding success/Advantage

Well, I didn't say "activate" either. In both cases, you still need to pay the FP cost, even if you don't activate the base but instead the Upgrade's effects. Even with Enhance, you do still need to pay the base FP cost plus the cost of the upgrade before using the upgrade, even if you don't want to boost to your athletics. The same with Influence. Activating the upgrade simply overrides the base power's Strain effect, but you still need to pay the full FP cost of the base power as well as the upgrade even if only to use the upgrade. The base cost must always be paid even if you're only doing it to activate the "alternate effect" provided by the Control upgrade. Neither of those two powers say you can forego paying the base FP cost of the power to use the upgrade. The base cost is just that, the base cost .

I think my vertigo just kicked in from the twisted logic being used here. Tramp please tell me you are not actually saying that to use the Enhance upgrade to, for example Force Jump, you have to first spend 1 FP to activate some phantom use of a Athletics check. Because that is just plain wrong on so many levels.

Actually, that is exactly how I read it. The base cost is always paid, as far as I know, based upon the RAW. Unless the book actually says differently.

So you're telling me, when the rules for the Enhance basic power (let's just stick with that example) state "When making an Athletics check, the user may roll an Enhance Power check as part of of the pool." and you're not taking an action that requires you to roll an athletics check, you still interpret that to mean you have to somehow activate the base power before you can activate the Control upgrade to Force Leap?

This is to say nothing of the supposed legality of rolling a Force Power Check as part of a skill check that is not even being attempted.

Do they mean that in order to Force leap you need to activate the power in general (by spending a FP, essentially "turning it on", for lack of a better term), or that you must activate and use the base power by way of an enhanced Athletics check? If it's the former, isn't that correct? If not, we have so been doing it wrong!

As far as whether Bind or Move is better for Force push, wasn't that rendered moot? I could've sworn that attacking somebody with raw, pure Force energy (a telekinetic attack) was a different power (whose name escapes me as I haven't played/looked at my book for far too long...). Man, it's been a while since I opened this can of worms.

EDIT: I reread through the confusing posts and TG, you are mistaken. You don't need to pay a base cost then an upgrade cost to say, Force Leap. You only need to roll your Force rating as an action (or maneuver, if that upgrade has been purchased), get 1 FP and you can then leap to whatever range band you're upgrades allow. You don't need to pay the cost of the basic power (enhancing an Athletics check) then pay an additional cost to use Force leap. The Force leap upgrade simply replaces use of the basic power.

Where it can get potentially confusing is if you have Force leap as a maneuver and use a Force power as your action. In this case, you simply roll for the Force leap maneuver and leap, then roll your full Force rating again for the power used as an action.

I need to play Star Wars soon...

That you need to activate the power in general, by spending the FP cost, not specifically rolling the Athletics check. IF this is actually incorrect, I stand corrected.

So speaking as someone that's been playing and running games in this system pretty much since the EotE Beta came out (many of whom were Force users of one stripe or another), I'm taking a look at some of the Control upgrades in question in regards to "do I also need to activate the basic Force power?"

Battle Meditation - both of these are a yes, as each Control upgrade plays off the basic power in some way.

Bind - definite yes on the Column 4/Row 2 Control upgrade, as that says "whenever a target affected by Bind" in the first sentence. As for the Column 1/ Row 3, that one's iffy. It simply says "may immediately move the target" without outright saying that they have to affected by the Bind basic power. Possible this is an error, and hopefully Richardbuxton's question to the devs will help provide some clarity, but for my own games, I'd say that to qualify as "a target" that you'd need to trigger Bind's basic power as well, but given the costs to get to that upgrade (both to get FR2 and the upgrade itself) I don't think it would be game breaking to allow the user to simply move the target and not use any other part of the Bind power. But if all you're looking to do is move people about, then the Move power is better option, being less expensive in terms of XP while offering more versatility in terms of which direction the target gets moved.

Enhance - Nope on all counts. Each Control Upgrade simply adds a new way to spend Force points, all of which do not require the basic power (enhancing Athletics checks) to be triggered, especially since a PC can only make one skill check per round as their action. Force leap doesn't have a skill check, but that it's an action lends support to the notion that those series of Control upgrades operate independently of the basic power.

Foresee - The Row 2 Control Upgrade is a nope, as it's effect (enhancing initiative checks) is again independent of the basic power. Column2/Row3 Control Upgrade is dependent upon the Row 2 Control Upgrade, but not the basic power. Row 4 Control Upgrade is a no on the basic power, but you do need to trigger the Row 2 Control Upgrade to get the benefit.

Heal/Harm - Column1/Row4 Control upgrade is a yes, since it modifies the basic power result. For the Column2/Row4 Control upgrade, the full text on page 293 is pretty clear that it's meant to work in conjunction with the basic power. Column4/Row2 upgrade, this one is also linked to the basic power, so you'd have to activate that in order to use this upgrade. Column4/Row3 upgrade, it's possible that you could use the Heal part independent of the basic power (and it's been argued that Ben did something like this for Luke in ANH), but the Harm part is definitely dependent on the basic power to function

Influence - again, neither of the Control upgrades is reliant upon using the basic power (inflicting strain) to function, as one enhances your social skill checks and the other is the classic Jedi mind trick.

Misdirect - the two Control upgrades in Column 4 are alternate effects of the basic power, changing what that part of Misdirect does, so you do need to activate the basic power to gain the benefit of those two Control upgrades. The Column 2 Control upgrade is a "commit Force die" effect, and thus independent of the basic power.

Move - Both Control upgrades key off the basic power for their effects, so you definitely need to activate the basic power in order to have either of these Control upgrades take effect.

Protect/Unleash - yeah, these all key off the basic power effect, so you need to activate that to get these to work.

Seek - The Column1/Row3 Control upgrade keys off the basic power, so again you need that to get this upgrade to trigger. The other two Control upgrades are "commit Force die" style effects, and again work independent of the basic power since you're not rolling Force dice.

Sense - both the Column 1 Control Upgrades are independent of the basic power, since they're "commit Force die effects." The Column 2 Control Upgrade is an alternate effect of the basic power, upgrading "read current emotional state" to "read current thoughts," but doesn't require a separate activation of the basic power, with this even being clarified by Sam way back in the early days of the system, with the source being (I think) one of the earliest Order 66 podcasts after Chris and Dave made the move from Saga Edition to this system.

I never claimed to be an "authority" on it. I'm simply reading the rules as they're written. And reading the rules as they are written, the Bind movement upgrade more accurately emulates Force Push and Force Pull than Move's hurl upgrade does.

Reading the rules is not a replacement for actual play. First example in my experience with this game: setback dice. I was reading through the talents and wondering "what good is this Gearhead thing anyway"? Then I discovered I was supposed to liberally apply setback dice...but this threw off my initial estimation of a skill check's Difficulty, and made things too difficult for the PCs at the XP level they were at. It's been a process of refinement, and you can't get any of that just reading the rules.

I never claimed to be an "authority" on it. I'm simply reading the rules as they're written. And reading the rules as they are written, the Bind movement upgrade more accurately emulates Force Push and Force Pull than Move's hurl upgrade does.

Reading the rules is not a replacement for actual play. First example in my experience with this game: setback dice. I was reading through the talents and wondering "what good is this Gearhead thing anyway"? Then I discovered I was supposed to liberally apply setback dice...but this threw off my initial estimation of a skill check's Difficulty, and made things too difficult for the PCs at the XP level they were at. It's been a process of refinement, and you can't get any of that just reading the rules.

I don't deny that, which is why I've been eager to play. However, even before that, I always try to get a solid grasp of the rules as written even before I play in case I'm forced into the role of GM.

Then I would suggest that you liberally sprinkle terms like “I’ve never actually played a game yet” and “From the way I read the rules, even though I’ve never played a game”, etc… throughout your various posts.

This way it is appropriately made clear to every one that you are speaking solely from the perspective of your own isolated personal interpretation of the “Rules as Written”, without any basis whatsoever on actual experience with the real game in the actual real world.

My wife is a lawyer in the real world. One of the things she hates more than anything else is people who present themselves as experts on legal matters because they’ve read the books. They have never actually practiced law, they have never taken the bar exam, they have no concept of what the actual legal precedents are, they have never gone in front of a judge, or negotiated a million or billion dollar deal with hard-ball lawyers on the other side.

Yet, the charlatans they are, they make every indication that they are experts on the law, because they think that all you need to know is what is written in the laws.

Cross-posting for thread integrity, but I had a new piece of info that I thought was relevant to the discussion, and might have been missed by those newer to the system:

40 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Yes, I've read that, and that was before Bind and it's Movement upgrade even existed in any form other than a beta. Move's hurl upgrade only realy works a sa means of picking up a target and throwing him/her into other people as a projectile, which is not what the basic purpose of Force Push and Force Pull are for. They are primarily for pushing a target back away from the user, or pulling the target to the user, not for slamming them into someone else. As for the FR cost, that has nothing to do with what power more accurately emulated the result.

Whatwe see Anakin do is a combination of Bind's basic power along with its Movement upgrade. By RAW, you can use the movement upgrade by itself without immobilizing the target. This is how Kanaan pushes Ezra across chasms. And it is what Yoda does to Palpatine when he pushes him across the room. That isn't the Move power, that is the Bind movement Control upgrade

The problem with this simulationist argument (where one gets into the nitty-gritty minutiae of the wording) is that the devs also answered questions about the Move power very early on in the Edge of the Empire days. The question was answered by both Zoe Robinson and Sam Stewart on the Order 66 Podcast (I believe in episodes 4 & 5 , respectively). I remember because I asked the question The question was, essentially, "Can the 'fine manipulation' upgrade of Move be used to Force choke an opponent?" With the reasoning being, "It says I can do whatever I could do with my hands." But the answer, perhaps curiously, was "No, it's not really appropriate for that." There was a strong implication, contained in the answer, that there was something that they were workshopping to accomplish the "Force choke" effect (without actually saying those words, of course, since they're not allowed to talk about things that aren't released).

Now why would they say you can't Force-choke with Move, but you can Force-push with Move? It wouldn't make sense. Both are telekinetic, and per the rules you can use Move to "suspend" objects (it's an area of GM fiat, but it's been a sidebar companion to the Move power since EotE). With Force-choke, they were obviously holding out for a better power (even though Force-choking is pretty central to the Star Wars mythos!), but with Force-push, they obviously thought they'd nailed it. This is something we've said many times with many examples even from the FaD CRB in this thread (where Move gets used to push), but I had just recalled this one piece of info that I thought was pertinent.

My attempted point in the post that @Tramp Graphics quoted was, both the powers have some areas of crossover, but Move does do a great job of mechanically allowing a PC to do a Force-slam or a Force push (or Force wave, Force whirlwind, etc). Once one has played the game, one is in a better position to understand this. Bind can also do some of that stuff, but its main utility is in telekinetically holding, whereas Move's main utility is in telekinetically moving . (not to mention the problem of Bind being inaccessible until you reach FR 2—this is a BIG problem for the detractors of Move-as-Force-push , and one that hasn't been properly addressed since I brought up Ahsoka's Force-push against the big droid at the beginning of TCW—aside from one post lumping TCW in with video games and the like). If you wanna limit Force-pushing to FR 2 PCs in your game, then have at it. I just don't think it's at all appropriate, and it doesn't jive with canonical sources.

Feel free to check out the O66 podcast and hear some FFG staffer's early responses like I mentioned above. But some things you've just gotta discover for yourself through play. Meanwhile, we are happy to try and speak from experience, if it might ever be helpful.

What you actually thought he played the game?

ROFLMAO.

3 hours ago, Decorus said:

What you actually thought he played the game?

ROFLMAO.

@Tramp Graphics , you mean? No, I know he's still trying to put a game together.

On 1/22/2017 at 11:08 AM, Tramp Graphics said:

I don't deny that, which is why I've been eager to play. However, even before that, I always try to get a solid grasp of the rules as written even before I play in case I'm forced into the role of GM.

If you're forced to GM (as opposed to being eager to pick up the ball and gleefully run with it) that's a bigger issue than understanding the rules.

1 minute ago, Alderaan Crumbs said:

If you're forced to GM (as opposed to being eager to pick up the ball and gleefully run with it) that's a bigger issue than understanding the rules.

This is true. If you really do feel "forced" into the GM seat, that is a situation that can lead to resentment, which leads to combativeness, which leads to division. And ultimately no one wins. However, if you just feel like it's necessary that you become GM since no-one else wants to (and you really just wanna make sure the game gets played), then that is something that can be overcome.

I was "forced" to GM, since after being introduced to SWRPG our GM just flaked out after a few sessions, stopped showing up and didn't answer any calls (this was back when texting was expensive, so "calls"). I read the rules, put together a crappy sandbox story full of B-list characters from the Star Wars EU (this was back when there was an EU), and ran a ridiculously fun campaign that was full of shenanigans. So even though I was the only one willing to GM, I decided that my love for Star Wars trumped my inexperience and discomfort, and I tried to make it as fun an experience for myself that I could. And I discovered that I actually freaking loved GMing.

I would submit an article by the Angry GM ( http://theangrygm.com/jumping-the-screen-how-to-run-your-first-rpg-session/ ) on how to run your first RPG session. It's got some great advice.

Now, if I'd had the Angry GM's advice from the get-go, I could have avoided a lot of mistakes. But everything I learned from that first campaign led to me having the experience that I have now. And, reading Angry's blog post back a year ago, I found myself going, "yep...yep..yep..."

21 hours ago, awayputurwpn said:

Cross-posting for thread integrity, but I had a new piece of info that I thought was relevant to the discussion, and might have been missed by those newer to the system:

The problem with this simulationist argument (where one gets into the nitty-gritty minutiae of the wording) is that the devs also answered questions about the Move power very early on in the Edge of the Empire days. The question was answered by both Zoe Robinson and Sam Stewart on the Order 66 Podcast (I believe in episodes 4 & 5 , respectively). I remember because I asked the question The question was, essentially, "Can the 'fine manipulation' upgrade of Move be used to Force choke an opponent?" With the reasoning being, "It says I can do whatever I could do with my hands." But the answer, perhaps curiously, was "No, it's not really appropriate for that." There was a strong implication, contained in the answer, that there was something that they were workshopping to accomplish the "Force choke" effect (without actually saying those words, of course, since they're not allowed to talk about things that aren't released).

Now why would they say you can't Force-choke with Move, but you can Force-push with Move? It wouldn't make sense. Both are telekinetic, and per the rules you can use Move to "suspend" objects (it's an area of GM fiat, but it's been a sidebar companion to the Move power since EotE). With Force-choke, they were obviously holding out for a better power (even though Force-choking is pretty central to the Star Wars mythos!), but with Force-push, they obviously thought they'd nailed it. This is something we've said many times with many examples even from the FaD CRB in this thread (where Move gets used to push), but I had just recalled this one piece of info that I thought was pertinent.

My attempted point in the post that @Tramp Graphics quoted was, both the powers have some areas of crossover, but Move does do a great job of mechanically allowing a PC to do a Force-slam or a Force push (or Force wave, Force whirlwind, etc). Once one has played the game, one is in a better position to understand this. Bind can also do some of that stuff, but its main utility is in telekinetically holding, whereas Move's main utility is in telekinetically moving . (not to mention the problem of Bind being inaccessible until you reach FR 2—this is a BIG problem for the detractors of Move-as-Force-push , and one that hasn't been properly addressed since I brought up Ahsoka's Force-push against the big droid at the beginning of TCW—aside from one post lumping TCW in with video games and the like). If you wanna limit Force-pushing to FR 2 PCs in your game, then have at it. I just don't think it's at all appropriate, and it doesn't jive with canonical sources.

Feel free to check out the O66 podcast and hear some FFG staffer's early responses like I mentioned above. But some things you've just gotta discover for yourself through play. Meanwhile, we are happy to try and speak from experience, if it might ever be helpful.

Bind being inaccessible until FR2 is not a "big problem" at all, as far as I am concerned. The issue is what you consider Force Pushing and Force Pulling, and what they're intended to do. Yes, Move works well for a Force slam, where you're slamming something, or someone directly into someone else . However, that is not the primary purpose of Force Push or Force Pull . The primary purpose of those abilities is to push a target farther away from you or pull a target closer to you . This is where the Bind movement upgrade comes in and why it specifically covers Force Push and Force Pull better than Move . It's an issue of function . What are you trying to accomplish. The Move hurl upgrade is great if you want to throw things or people into other people. But to push a target back or pull them forward, that is the primary function of the Bind movement upgrade.

25 minutes ago, awayputurwpn said:

This is true. If you really do feel "forced" into the GM seat, that is a situation that can lead to resentment, which leads to combativeness, which leads to division. And ultimately no one wins. However, if you just feel like it's necessary that you become GM since no-one else wants to (and you really just wanna make sure the game gets played), then that is something that can be overcome.

I was "forced" to GM, since after being introduced to SWRPG our GM just flaked out after a few sessions, stopped showing up and didn't answer any calls (this was back when texting was expensive, so "calls"). I read the rules, put together a crappy sandbox story full of B-list characters from the Star Wars EU (this was back when there was an EU), and ran a ridiculously fun campaign that was full of shenanigans. So even though I was the only one willing to GM, I decided that my love for Star Wars trumped my inexperience and discomfort, and I tried to make it as fun an experience for myself that I could. And I discovered that I actually freaking loved GMing.

I would submit an article by the Angry GM ( http://theangrygm.com/jumping-the-screen-how-to-run-your-first-rpg-session/ ) on how to run your first RPG session. It's got some great advice.

Now, if I'd had the Angry GM's advice from the get-go, I could have avoided a lot of mistakes. But everything I learned from that first campaign led to me having the experience that I have now. And, reading Angry's blog post back a year ago, I found myself going, "yep...yep..yep..."

I'm not sure how forced they actually are/feel, it just stood out for me. I've been begged to run games I haven't really wanted to and it feels like a chore. On the flip side, I've been near-Hammy the Squirrel with excitement over a game and less enthusiastic players have ridden the wave to great games.

False equivalency there Tramp.

Move is very easily used to "push" or "pull" people as well as things. Move's entire function is to literally move things around, be it within the same range band as where the target starts or between range bands, much like Luke does to Threepio in Return of the Jedi, with the droid none the worse for wear after being floated around, or Darth Maul does to Obi-Wan in TPM to bring an end to their one-on-one duel and leave Kenobi hanging on for dear life.

Heck, we see Kylo directly pulling a First Order officer into his grip, with no damage inflicted on said officer beyond probably needing a clean pair of underwear. And being a dark sider as well as a Vader fan-boy, Kylo would have no problem just straight out choking the officer if he'd thought he could get away with it; would seem Snoke keeps the boy on something of a leash, at least in terms of taking out his frustrations on First Order personnel.

39 minutes ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

False equivalency there Tramp.

Move is very easily used to "push" or "pull" people as well as things. Move's entire function is to literally move things around, be it within the same range band as where the target starts or between range bands, much like Luke does to Threepio in Return of the Jedi, with the droid none the worse for wear after being floated around, or Darth Maul does to Obi-Wan in TPM to bring an end to their one-on-one duel and leave Kenobi hanging on for dear life.

Heck, we see Kylo directly pulling a First Order officer into his grip, with no damage inflicted on said officer beyond probably needing a clean pair of underwear. And being a dark sider as well as a Vader fan-boy, Kylo would have no problem just straight out choking the officer if he'd thought he could get away with it; would seem Snoke keeps the boy on something of a leash, at least in terms of taking out his frustrations on First Order personnel.

Yes, and that example of Kylo and the First Order officer is best emulated by the Bind Movement upgrade. In fact, it is an exact depiction of how that upgrade works, based on the RAW. The base Move power lifts and levitates things, moving them around slowly . This is what Luke was doing to Threepio. It's Hurl upgrade allows the user to pick things up and hurl them directly at another target with the purpose of damaging that target. This is what Dooku did with Obi-Wan in RotS. The Bind movement upgrade is specifically designed to push or pull a target from or to the user at speed. That is an exact description of Force Push and Force Pull . And this is what we see Kylo Ren do to both the First Order Officer and Rey (when he Force pushes her several meters backwards) in TFA. That is the difference between the powers and their upgrades by the RAW. The Bind movement upgrade specifically and exactly emulates Force Push and Force Pull .

At this point, until we get an answer from one of the FFG devs about whether or not the Bind Control upgrade to move a target can or cannot be used separate from the base power, it's clear that you're not willing to even hear any argument other than what's coming out of your mouth, or even consider the advice of people who have actually played the game.

Multiple times evidence from people that have actually played the game have discounted and debunked your errant claims, and not once have you paused to consider that maybe, just maybe you might be trying to force a square peg through a round hole in saying that Bind is the only way to move a person between range bands, when it's pretty **** clear to anyone with a couple of firing neurons in their brain case that is blatantly false, and that the devs have confirmed that pushing and pulling is the primary domain of the Move power, or that the only reason Bind has that upgrade is because we see Dooku moving Obi-Wan about while choking him during their rematch in RotS.

I think it's also telling that for the Inquisitor build rules, of the sample Force power sets, there is no listing of Bind, but instead is the Move power with the upgrades to be able to fling multiple Silhouette 1 targets (aka PCs) around like rag dolls.