Ahsoka's altercation with the LR-57 is at 22 minutes into the movie. She slices its legs, then gives it a thrust, sending it sprawling and activating several more LR-57s in the process

Well, well...so she does. Although, I wouldn't say it's really a damaging push, the thing was dead, she just moves it out of the way...quickly.

Clone Wars, Rebels, Books, Comics and Video games are all pretty irrelevant if what you want out of the game is an experience that replicates the aesthetics of the first three movies before all of this accretion of other materials that continuously made the force more and more powerful. Bottom line is, the rules in this game support a vision of Move that falls well outside the power scope of the original movies.

All of the movies and shows, even the ones where Force powers are absolutely ridiculous contain one essential dynamic still, and that is that out of Power, Control and Speed you can only ever have two of the three. If you do something crazy powerful you can't do it with a lot of control or you have to do it very slowly. If you do something very fast it can't be both powerful and highly controlled at the same time and so on. The game fails to replicate that dynamic.

The game also doesn't cause you any exhaustion from using the force unless you have to flip pips, which I think is kind of crummy, because there is no cost or danger to failure except the action you wasted, and that only matters in combat and affects every single action that has a chance of failure equally. From my perspective incredible Force feats wouldn't be an issue if they came at a cost and carried a risk, but the only cost they ever have is if you pay for success in strain and conflict, which isn't quite the same as taking a real risk. You can't even roll despairs on most non-combat uses of the Force.

Seeing as how they get slammed into the ground...that is push right into the ground...they amount of mental gymnastics you go through to so only consider one way of doing things.

No, they don't get "slammed into" the ground. Most targets do get knocked off of their feet, but they're not being picked up and slammed into the ground.

Been playing this game for years now, and have been using Move for Force push. It works just fine. Bind can do something similar, but Move does it much better. Just because the "default" speed of the Move basic power is slow and deliberate doesn't mean that it only EVER has two speeds (slow and lethal). One would imagine that with more experience, one would actually get better at moving things at a quicker pace, even without hurling then to cause damage. Again, "default" doesn't mean "only."

The main problem with saying "you can't Force push/pull with Move" is that Bind requires a Force Rating of 2! That means that the iconic Force push power (the simple ability to thrust someone back a few feet, not even to deal damage) is suddenly out of reach for your starting characters if you pigeonhole it thusly.

Again I'll say: Move works just fine for push/pull. The developers have already ruled on it. I've played it that way for many a game, and I've never had any complaints. In fact it had been at the center of a good few highlights of my gaming experience. (So had Bind, come to think of it. Oh there is something so blasted powerful about saying "you suddenly feel your throat constricting as your entire body goes rigid," and your players are like "awww snap!")

The main problem with saying "you can't Force push/pull with Move" is that Bind requires a Force Rating of 2! That means that the iconic Force push power (the simple ability to thrust someone back a few feet, not even to deal damage) is suddenly out of reach for your starting characters if you pigeonhole it thusly.

I wouldn't have a problem with an FR2 requirement to push...we don't see Ahsoka do it until much later in her Padawan years.

Whafrog is correct here. We don't really see inexperienced padawans using Force Push. Obi Wan was able to iuse it in TPM because he was already at a point in his training where he was ready for the Jedi Trials. His training was basically complete and he had a FR of at least 2-3.

Given the fact that droids and others do not get back up afterward yes they did get slammed into the ground.

Lol, well said Daeglan.

The point of contention (as I understand it) could be, "at what point does the damage occur? Is it the point of impact with the ground, or the point of connection with the telekinetic push?" And the problem there is that, with that sort of question, one could be expecting too high a level of minutia from this system.

The Move power is like, "you wanna move crap with your mind? Okay here's how. You wanna use it as a weapon or type on a keyboard from across the room? Yeah, you can do that too; just gotta learn how." It's written in such broad strokes as to be whatever your gaming table needs it to be. That is the beauty of it all. So to argue that you can't move X in Y fashion because the rules don't specifically state that you can move X in Y fashion...to me, it detracts from the beauty.

Why do we need dozens of supplements with additional equipment and talent trees and encounters if broadly worded rules are so fantastic? They could have made the entire weapons section of the game just as broadly worded and simply said "A ranged: heavy weapon is whatever you want it to be, does about 10 damage, roll some dice and make up the rest, here is a page of examples!" Would that be an improvement to the game?

If open ended is so great, what do talent trees add to SWRP for example? When all the supplements are out this game is going to contain 111 different talent trees, that purely exist to tell you what order you are allowed to buy talents in, and what combinations of these trees the game allows you to purchase at reduced XP cost. Is that broadly worded or open ended? No. It's actually very restrictive, and presents an interesting array of choices only because it's such a huge number of specific trees.

The same goes for equipment. Every book adds more equipment with very specific rules. Hundreds of weapons in different configurations, different special effects and bonuses, situational modifiers and availability. Dozens of different electronics, scanners, med packs, tracking beacons, data spikes, you name it. We have entire book sections dedicated to crafting one of the hundreds of items in existence already with extra modifiers tacked on, just in case they weren't specific enough for you.

Let's face it, the reason we're buying supplements and aren't just playing FATE to begin with is because we want specifics. There are literally hundreds of pages worth of specifically statted out weapons in the system at this point, when they could have just as well gone the route of Cypher and simply said "Any weapon that uses two hands is a heavy weapon and uses the same stat block". But FFG wouldn't be selling any books then, and we'd all get tired of the shallowness of the system after 10 sessions and move on to something with a bit more bite.

Why should it suddenly be a good thing that they drop all specifics and leave you to make it up when it comes to force powers? It's obvious that there are severe holes in the power, because for example Saber Throw or Draw Closer ended up being talents instead of part of Move, because the simple fact that Move is always an action doesn't allow it to be combined with saber techniques. Force Jump and Bind which should just be other forms of Move also ended up in their own power. Actually catching an object or using Move defensively is also not an option at all, even though that's half of what it's used for in the shows and movies. Catching a falling ally was added in as a sidebar that says the GM should allow it even though Move does not.

Let's stop pretending that Move is some kind of stroke of genius in its openness. They had to append it with additional powers, talents and sidebars just to add obvious things it can do in the movies, and we're still stuck with a power that also does a bunch of crap it can't do in the movies.

Maybe if we're lucky the Consular book contains an actual Force Push ability that functions as a knockback style attack, a physical version of Protect, or an incidental to divert incoming projectiles.

The main problem with saying "you can't Force push/pull with Move" is that Bind requires a Force Rating of 2! That means that the iconic Force push power (the simple ability to thrust someone back a few feet, not even to deal damage) is suddenly out of reach for your starting characters if you pigeonhole it thusly.

The fact that Move is way too easy to use is exactly why I think it is ridiculous that you don't need more specialized powers to toss people around. With move as written Yoda lifting the X-wing would have been a minor effort that takes a mere 45 XP to learn and can be pulled off on a single force die.

If you're someone who likes the aesthetic of Episodes 4 through 6 and isn't super into all the power creep the TV shows and later movies added Move is simply a really badly written power. The first three movies seem to make it very clear that Force powers that work on a subtle level where you can dispute whether they did something at all or were just blind luck are much easier to utilize than Force powers that full on and obviously break the laws of physics. SWRP treats Move like a power you can use very easily without much of a force rating at all though.

I mean fine I get it, some people don't think this is an issue, but from my perspective there is a definite difference between Move and Push. Pretty much every other Starwars game ever written has made that distinction and was better for it. You could just as well say that Move is Force Jump, but oh hey, there is an actual rule set for Force Jump in the Enhance power, and it's much better than using Move for it.

Bind is also just screwed as a power. I have never seen anyone take any points in it, because it's so incredibly specific how you can use it and how you need dark side points to use certain aspects of it and so on. It seems like it's a power that's written for a system of highly specific powers while Move is a power that's written for a system of absurdly broad worded powers, and there is simply no reason to go for the highly specific stuff in a game that has both.

Lets review how "easy it is to move an X-wing that is stuck in a swamp.

1. Your going to need pull

2. It was at about long range in total

3. Its a Sil 2 vehicle.. ?(Man Sil 2 is huge)

So you need 2 strength upgrades 3 range upgrades and pull. Now normally I would rule since your pulling it out of a swamp its an impossible difficulty Move check so 5 purple difficulty with a destiny point. (You know because its at the bottom of a swamp and that muck is not letting go)

So your going to need to roll 3 force pips and then commit 2 to maintain it while taking 2 strain every round until you move it one range band at a time to its new spot. After making that impossible discipline roll to pull it out of the swamp.

So no an average starting character isn't even going to budge it.'

Hey its your game you want to make it easy thats your problem.

The main problem with saying "you can't Force push/pull with Move" is that Bind requires a Force Rating of 2! That means that the iconic Force push power (the simple ability to thrust someone back a few feet, not even to deal damage) is suddenly out of reach for your starting characters if you pigeonhole it thusly.

The fact that Move is way too easy to use is exactly why I think it is ridiculous that you don't need more specialized powers to toss people around. With move as written Yoda lifting the X-wing would have been a minor effort that takes a mere 45 XP to learn and can be pulled off on a single force die.

If you're someone who likes the aesthetic of Episodes 4 through 6 and isn't super into all the power creep the TV shows and later movies added Move is simply a really badly written power. The first three movies seem to make it very clear that Force powers that work on a subtle level where you can dispute whether they did something at all or were just blind luck are much easier to utilize than Force powers that full on and obviously break the laws of physics. SWRP treats Move like a power you can use very easily without much of a force rating at all though.

I mean fine I get it, some people don't think this is an issue, but from my perspective there is a definite difference between Move and Push. Pretty much every other Starwars game ever written has made that distinction and was better for it. You could just as well say that Move is Force Jump, but oh hey, there is an actual rule set for Force Jump in the Enhance power, and it's much better than using Move for it.

Bind is also just screwed as a power. I have never seen anyone take any points in it, because it's so incredibly specific how you can use it and how you need dark side points to use certain aspects of it and so on. It seems like it's a power that's written for a system of highly specific powers while Move is a power that's written for a system of absurdly broad worded powers, and there is simply no reason to go for the highly specific stuff in a game that has both.

Lets review how "easy it is to move an X-wing that is stuck in a swamp.

1. Your going to need pull

2. It was at about long range in total

3. Its a Sil 2 vehicle.. ?(Man Sil 2 is huge)

So you need 2 strength upgrades 3 range upgrades and pull. Now normally I would rule since your pulling it out of a swamp its an impossible difficulty Move check so 5 purple difficulty with a destiny point. (You know because its at the bottom of a swamp and that muck is not letting go)

So your going to need to roll 3 force pips and then commit 2 to maintain it while taking 2 strain every round until you move it one range band at a time to its new spot. After making that impossible discipline roll to pull it out of the swamp.

So no an average starting character isn't even going to budge it.'

Hey its your game you want to make it easy thats your problem.

It is a silhouette 3 vehicle. Not 2.

Which makes it even harder to lift using move.

Either there should have been less Strength upgrades in Move or the Force Point cost should be based on Silhouette. Either would fix 99% of people's complaints about it being over powered.

Either there should have been less Strength upgrades in Move or the Force Point cost should be based on Silhouette. Either would fix 99% of people's complaints about it being over powered.

given the amount of xp to do the things that are complaints reliably I think the complaints are way over blown. you need force rating 3 to really do it with any regularity. and just getting to that point is pretty expensive. Even in the trees with 2 force ratings. And that is not counting the XP you need to spend on move.

Either there should have been less Strength upgrades in Move or the Force Point cost should be based on Silhouette. Either would fix 99% of people's complaints about it being over powered.

given the amount of xp to do the things that are complaints reliably I think the complaints are way over blown. you need force rating 3 to really do it with any regularity. and just getting to that point is pretty expensive. Even in the trees with 2 force ratings. And that is not counting the XP you need to spend on move.

Oh I definitely agree getting there is very expensive, and doing with only Light Side is even harder. But most complaints boil down to "I don't want the Force Unleashed in my game" which stems from picking up big things being rather easy even with a single specialisation.

Either there should have been less Strength upgrades in Move or the Force Point cost should be based on Silhouette. Either would fix 99% of people's complaints about it being over powered.

given the amount of xp to do the things that are complaints reliably I think the complaints are way over blown. you need force rating 3 to really do it with any regularity. and just getting to that point is pretty expensive. Even in the trees with 2 force ratings. And that is not counting the XP you need to spend on move.

Oh I definitely agree getting there is very expensive, and doing with only Light Side is even harder. But most complaints boil down to "I don't want the Force Unleashed in my game" which stems from picking up big things being rather easy even with a single specialisation.

except it is not easy. You need to dump a bunch of XP on move. More xp on discipline more xp to get the force rating. And didn't Yoda say size matter not. As in moving big things being hard is only in your mind...There is a reason Vader did not hit Luke with a huge object. It is far far more efficient to hit with a bunch of smaller objects.

What I am seeing is worry abut meta gamey power gamey behavior. Which to me is the problem. Not the mechanics. Mechanics will get abused by those players no matter what. I say don't game with douchebags.

Darth is also not trying to kill his boy there, he is trying to overthrow The Emperor after all. Throwing something large enough to squash Luke kinda defeats the point of going easy on him.

It also makes the task unnecessarily hard. Throwing larger objects gets substantially harder very rapidly when throwing multiple small objects is super easy and will have about the same damage.

All I'm saying is for Darth neither matters he can do it no problem, same goes for Yoda pulling out the Xwing because they are both very strong and practiced in the force. Size matters not for these two, PC's however should stick to throwing silhouette 0 and 1 items autofire to get the most damage.

Comparing multiple small objects vs 1 big object:

Success with 2 Force Points (Basic, Strength. 3 if Range as well) on a Hard Discipline check to cause 30+Success damage (60-80xp in the power depending on the range)

Success with 2 Force Points (Basic and Magnitude, 3 if Range as welll) on an Easy Discipline check to cause 5+Success damage with up to 4 further 5+Success per 2A/1T (55 - 75 xp depending on range)

Success with 3 Force Points (Basic and Magnitude & Strength, 4 if Range as welll) on an Average Discipline check to cause 10+Success damage with up to 4 further 10+Success per 2A/1T (65-85xp depending on range)

So again I will say I believe Strength is too cheap and the Auto-Fire rules significantly restrict the Magnitude based attack. Yes it's an XP investment, I'm comfortable with that, but Magnitude is not the way to cause damage which doesn't sit well with me. I'm saying the power itself is not balanced with itself.

Changing the Damage multiplier for Silhouette would not even help. Silhouette 1 shouldn't be that much harder to move, but Silhouette 3 should be. Thus I suggest the Force Point cost for Strength to be based on Silhouette, with the maximum Silhouette being equal to the number of Strength Upgrades. So that first example above would require 4-5 Force Points instead

The difficulty is based on sil

So Simple for Sil 0

Easy for Sil 1

Moderate for Sil 2

Hard for Sil 3

Etc...

Please read my 3 examples above. I clearly outline the difficulty and requirements of success and Advantage to cause damage.

To do as much damage with multiple Silhouette 1 objects as a single Silhouette 3 object causes requires at least 4Advantages/ 2 Triumph on a Discipline check only 1 die smaller. And that assumes a target Soak of 0 which doesn't exist.

Remember the magnitude Upgrade with Hurl requires the use of Autofire rules, increasing the difficulty once and 2A/1T per additional hit.

Silhouette 2 may be the sweet spot since 20 Damage + success with a further 20+success per 2A/1T on only a Hard difficulty is quite good.

My point is I think overall the balance of the power to the rest of the system isn't too bad, it's the balance within the power that is wonky. Throwing a bunch of small things should be easier to do, not harder than a single large thing.

The other matter to bear in mind is how frequently are encounters taking place where Silhouette 3+ objects are available to throw?

Frankly, unless you're in a garage/hanger or starport landing field, the largest most objects available to be thrown should be Silhouette 2. and even those being in short supply.

You could just pull the SWTOR Consular trick and rip up a chunk of the ground to throw at enemies just make a 10-ft dirtball and hurl it at the inquisitor. Easy-peasy

You could just pull the SWTOR Consular trick and rip up a chunk of the ground to throw at enemies just make a 10-ft dirtball and hurl it at the inquisitor. Easy-peasy

Which is also a good way for the GM to start introducing difficult terrain into an encounter if the Force user does it too frequently in an encounter, or especially if the Force user does it to generate a Silhouette 3 object for their attack. At which point I might say there's not enough stuff to pull loose anymore to form something that big, on top of seriously considering awarding Conflict for rampant and largely unnecessary property destruction.

Granted, you'd still need to purchase the "tear things loose" Control upgrade to pull it off, but that's not much of a hurdle since said upgrade only costs 5 XP and is directly linked the "hurl" Control upgrade.

True, Item rarity will be a factor and that does lead to the unnecessary destruction. Now I'm going in bloody circles!

True, Item rarity will be a factor and that does lead to the unnecessary destruction. Now I'm going in bloody circles!

Well, if it's any consolation, telekinesis tends to be a problematic power in a great many RPGs, even ones designed to handle superheroes such as HERO/Champions and Mutants & Masterminds.

Star Wars has never been an exception to this, starting from WEG's telekinesis (though doing damage did warrant automatic Dark Side Points no matter what your justification was) and continuing with WotC and still holding true with FFG's Move, and will probably still be a thing if another company gets the license and produces their own Star Wars RPG. WotC as was their way during the 3.X heyday tried to legislate it as much as they could, and even that failed.

That's a good point, I wonder if it's so challenging to design because we see such variety across the entire Star Wars Cannon media in how things are moved and how easy it is.