"Also, if you read the base use of the Bind power it say the use may spend FPs to immobilize the target. Therefore, the user is not required to immobilize the target."

Actually, no. Because the term may is before the entire clause of the base power, it means you may spend a force point to activate the power as described. You also may choose not to use force points to activate the power, in which case, you do not activate the power at all. You can not pick and choose how the power works, the only choice there is to activate it or not. The reason it is written with the word may is so that the user is not forced into using the power with dark side points if they are a light side user, or vice versa.

I disagree. While, obviously, you need to spend the FPs (at least LSP) for the base power to get to the upgrades, that does not mean you necessarily have to immobilize the "target" of the power if that isn't your intent . This is the same as with Influence . If the purpose of using that power is to activate either the "social checks" upgrade or the "emotion" upgrade, you're not using it to cause strain on the target. Thus the same logically holds true for the Bind movement upgrade. You're activating the power to push or pull the target, not necessarily immobilize him. Thus, you do not have to immobilize the target to use Bind to push him or pull him one range band.

The "move" Control upgrade looks to be special. As is the case with many Control upgrades, it provides a different way to use the power. It looks to me that you can use it to move your target further from, or closer to, you (whether or not you activate the Basic power). But the other Control upgrade, the one that makes your target suffere strain when he performs an action, that one requires a target currently affected by Bind...so he needs to be immobilized by the Basic power for that Control upgrade to work.

Exactly.

Sorry GG, on Influence I actually have to agree with Tramp. The special rule applies to the entire power, but is not in itself a way to spend Force Points. The special rule just dictates how Force Points can be spent when using the power.

On the other topic of Bind, I truly believe Tramp is wrong, you need to activate the base power before anything else can be done.

But let's ask the Developers, together, to answer as many questions a fully as possible at once.

Can Move be used on Living beings, including beasts, PC's, NPC's, and Droids?

When using Move to take something from Engaged to Extreme range in a single action without the Control upgrade to cause damage does the entire travel time happen in a single round?

If not then do you have guidance on how long it should take?

When using Bind, in particular the Control upgrade for moving your target, do you need to activate the base power and immobilise your target before being able to move them? Or can you spend only a single Force Point on activating the power to only move the target a single range band?

Please provide input, so we can get the desired outcome, then move onto discussions of possible house rules

Neat, I did not see Influence as working that way, considering the "guiding and shaping thoughts" line is only used in that one place and no other part of the power references that.

I'm looking at the book and I can see what you're saying Tramp; because it is a control upgrade, it alters the way in which you can spend Force Points while using Bind.

So what you're saying is you can activate that control upgrade to move the target without activating the effects of the basic power. It's definitely ambiguous though, because we have some powers with control upgrades that still rely on the basic power such as the Hurl upgrade for Move and others that don't seem to require you to activate the base power.

Still, Bind accounts for only so much in regards to replicating the telekinesis in the films and shows. Bind is called out as a restriction of target movement in the text and Move is called out as accelerating.

I'm starting to come around to the idea that either power could be used for the effects of Force Push/Pull but in different degrees & variations.

Sorry GG, on Influence I actually have to agree with Tramp. The special rule applies to the entire power, but is not in itself a way to spend Force Points. The special rule just dictates how Force Points can be spent when using the power.

On the other topic of Bind, I truly believe Tramp is wrong, you need to activate the base power before anything else can be done.

But let's ask the Developers, together, to answer as many questions a fully as possible at once.

Can Move be used on Living beings, including beasts, PC's, NPC's, and Droids?

When using Move to take something from Engaged to Extreme range in a single action without the Control upgrade to cause damage does the entire travel time happen in a single round?

If not then do you have guidance on how long it should take?

When using Bind, in particular the Control upgrade for moving your target, do you need to activate the base power and immobilise your target before being able to move them? Or can you spend only a single Force Point on activating the power to only move the target a single range band?

Please provide input, so we can get the desired outcome, then move onto discussions of possible house rules

I might suggest adding a question about what happens to a target that is subject to the Bind control talent for moving them one range band closer or further away and they hit and/or are thrown into an obstacle.

Maybe something along the lines of:

Can the Bind control talent that moves the target one range band closer or further away be used to push/pull the target into/through an obstacle?

If yes, what damage would the target and/or obstacle take?

Sorry GG, on Influence I actually have to agree with Tramp. The special rule applies to the entire power, but is not in itself a way to spend Force Points. The special rule just dictates how Force Points can be spent when using the power.

On the other topic of Bind, I truly believe Tramp is wrong, you need to activate the base power before anything else can be done.

But let's ask the Developers, together, to answer as many questions a fully as possible at once.

Can Move be used on Living beings, including beasts, PC's, NPC's, and Droids?

When using Move to take something from Engaged to Extreme range in a single action without the Control upgrade to cause damage does the entire travel time happen in a single round?

If not then do you have guidance on how long it should take?

When using Bind, in particular the Control upgrade for moving your target, do you need to activate the base power and immobilise your target before being able to move them? Or can you spend only a single Force Point on activating the power to only move the target a single range band?

Please provide input, so we can get the desired outcome, then move onto discussions of possible house rules

I might suggest adding a question about what happens to a target that is subject to the Bind control talent for moving them one range band closer or further away and they hit and/or are thrown into an obstacle.

Maybe something along the lines of:

Can the Bind control talent that moves the target one range band closer or further away be used to push/pull the target into/through an obstacle?

If yes, what damage would the target and/or obstacle take?

When using Bind, only "targets, others & enemies" are mentioned as to what you can target with the power. Can one use Bind on living beings such as animals & non-living beings, such as droids?

If yes, is there a silhouette limit on the Bind power?

Can Move be used on Living beings, including beasts, PC's, NPC's, and Droids?

When using Move to take something from Engaged to Extreme range in a single action without the Control upgrade to cause damage does the entire travel time happen in a single round?

If not then do you have guidance on how long it should take?

When using Bind, in particular the Control upgrade for moving your target, do you need to activate the base power and immobilise your target before being able to move them? Or can you spend only a single Force Point on activating the power to only move the target a single range band?

Can the Bind control talent that moves the target one range band closer or further away be used to push/pull the target into/through an obstacle?

If yes, what damage would the target and/or obstacle take?

When using Bind, only "targets, others & enemies" are mentioned as to what you can target with the power. Can one use Bind on living beings such as animals & non-living beings, such as droids?

If yes, is there a silhouette limit on the Bind power?

Good suggestions guys

Neat, I did not see Influence as working that way, considering the "guiding and shaping thoughts" line is only used in that one place and no other part of the power references that.

I'm looking at the book and I can see what you're saying Tramp; because it is a control upgrade, it alters the way in which you can spend Force Points while using Bind.

So what you're saying is you can activate that control upgrade to move the target without activating the effects of the basic power. It's definitely ambiguous though, because we have some powers with control upgrades that still rely on the basic power such as the Hurl upgrade for Move and others that don't seem to require you to activate the base power.

Still, Bind accounts for only so much in regards to replicating the telekinesis in the films and shows. Bind is called out as a restriction of target movement in the text and Move is called out as accelerating.

I'm starting to come around to the idea that either power could be used for the effects of Force Push/Pull but in different degrees & variations.

Well, technically Move , simply does just that, it moves an object, not necessarily accelerating it to any great speed. That's the hurl upgrade, which, as I said, is used to hurl an object at a target at high speed for damage. The Bind movement upgrade, however, moves people for distance at speed; pushing them away from the user or pulling them towards the user. And while the base cost doesn't change, there is no reason that the "immobilization" aspect of Bind need be applied if all you want to do is push an ally across a chasm.

Well except move is the better power to accomplish that task. You sound like a person trying to use a screwdriver as a drill...

Well except move is the better power to accomplish that task. You sound like a person trying to use a screwdriver as a drill...

As a tradesman that gave me a laugh.

Well except move is the better power to accomplish that task. You sound like a person trying to use a screwdriver as a drill...

No, it isn't the better option. The base Move power moves objects at walking speed or slower . This is not what we see when Jedi use Force Push or Force Pull , which is a high speed push or pull to quickly move a target across a distance to or from the user. Secondly, the Move hurl upgrade specifically picks up an object to hurl it at a target for damage . It does not push or pull a target for distance . The Bind movement upgrade specifically pushes a target one range band away from the Force user or pull the target one range band closer to the user. This is exactly what Force Push and Force Pull do. Force Push pushes a target away from the Force user. Force Pull pulls a target towards the Force User. Notice the parallels? The Bind movement upgrade perfectly emulates Force Push and Force Pull as seen in the movies, cartoons, and games.

Look Tramp, I tried to see it from your perspective & I can see how you might be able to activate Bind in that way and you still want to argue specifics. I've posted my addition to the group question Richardbuxton formed. I think that will be the end of my part in this discussion until we hear any responses from an authority on the matter. I'll be happy to discuss how correct or incorrect I am at such a time but until then, I'm going to let this topic be.

Well except move is the better power to accomplish that task. You sound like a person trying to use a screwdriver as a drill...

As a tradesman that gave me a laugh.

Your welcome... It is really what it feels like.

Well except move is the better power to accomplish that task. You sound like a person trying to use a screwdriver as a drill...

No, it isn't the better option. The base Move power moves objects at walking speed or slower . This is not what we see when Jedi use Force Push or Force Pull , which is a high speed push or pull to quickly move a target across a distance to or from the user. Secondly, the Move hurl upgrade specifically picks up an object to hurl it at a target for damage . It does not push or pull a target for distance . The Bind movement upgrade specifically pushes a target one range band away from the Force user or pull the target one range band closer to the user. This is exactly what Force Push and Force Pull do. Force Push pushes a target away from the Force user. Force Pull pulls a target towards the Force User. Notice the parallels? The Bind movement upgrade perfectly emulates Force Push and Force Pull as seen in the movies, cartoons, and games.

Well except move is the better power to accomplish that task. You sound like a person trying to use a screwdriver as a drill...

No, it isn't the better option. The base Move power moves objects at walking speed or slower . This is not what we see when Jedi use Force Push or Force Pull , which is a high speed push or pull to quickly move a target across a distance to or from the user. Secondly, the Move hurl upgrade specifically picks up an object to hurl it at a target for damage . It does not push or pull a target for distance . The Bind movement upgrade specifically pushes a target one range band away from the Force user or pull the target one range band closer to the user. This is exactly what Force Push and Force Pull do. Force Push pushes a target away from the Force user. Force Pull pulls a target towards the Force User. Notice the parallels? The Bind movement upgrade perfectly emulates Force Push and Force Pull as seen in the movies, cartoons, and games.

Everytime i see push or pull yes it is high speed because they are slamming them into something abd thus using the hurl upgrade.

Not really. In most cases, they're pushing a target backwards or pulling them forwards, not throwing them into other people . In fact, about the only instance I can think of where the Move Hurl upgrade could be applied is in RotS when Dooku picked up and threw Obi-Wan directly at a catwalk's support column with the Force, buckling it and causing the catwalk to then fall on him. In every other case, all we see is the target(s) being pushed backwards or pulled forwards, not picked up and thrown directly at something or someone. That is the difference here. Even with the battle droids in TPM, all that Obi Wan and Qui Gon did was push them backwards. They weren't picking them up and slamming them into one another. Pushing someone backwards with the Force is the Bind movement upgrade as described in the book. The same with pulling them forwards with the Force. The Hurl upgrade for Move is for using something (or someone) as a projectile to hit a target. Force Push and Force Pull simply push or pull a target farther from or closer to the Force user. They don't inherently cause damage or slam them into other targets. Therefore Force Push and Force Pull, in their purest form, are best emulated by the Bind movement upgrade.

Can Move be used on Living beings, including beasts, PC's, NPC's, and Droids?

When using Move to take something from Engaged to Extreme range in a single action without the Control upgrade to cause damage does the entire travel time happen in a single round?

If not then do you have guidance on how long it should take?

When using Bind, in particular the Control upgrade for moving your target, do you need to activate the base power and immobilise your target before being able to move them? Or can you spend only a single Force Point on activating the power to only move the target a single range band?

Can the Bind control talent that moves the target one range band closer or further away be used to push/pull the target into/through an obstacle?

If yes, what damage would the target and/or obstacle take?

When using Bind, only "targets, others & enemies" are mentioned as to what you can target with the power. Can one use Bind on living beings such as animals & non-living beings, such as droids?

If yes, is there a silhouette limit on the Bind power?

What should I add to these questions to clarify your view TG?

I'm fairly confident that Sam will say that both powers are suitable for Force Push/Pull, but with caveats. His standard response is a Yes/No answer so to get any details required careful questions, usually with multiple parts as I have done here.

Seeing as how they get slammed into the ground...that is push right into the ground...they amount of mental gymnastics you go through to so only consider one way of doing things.

Been playing this game for years now, and have been using Move for Force push. It works just fine. Bind can do something similar, but Move does it much better. Just because the "default" speed of the Move basic power is slow and deliberate doesn't mean that it only EVER has two speeds (slow and lethal). One would imagine that with more experience, one would actually get better at moving things at a quicker pace, even without hurling then to cause damage. Again, "default" doesn't mean "only."

The main problem with saying "you can't Force push/pull with Move" is that Bind requires a Force Rating of 2! That means that the iconic Force push power (the simple ability to thrust someone back a few feet, not even to deal damage) is suddenly out of reach for your starting characters if you pigeonhole it thusly.

Again I'll say: Move works just fine for push/pull. The developers have already ruled on it. I've played it that way for many a game, and I've never had any complaints. In fact it had been at the center of a good few highlights of my gaming experience. (So had Bind, come to think of it. Oh there is something so blasted powerful about saying "you suddenly feel your throat constricting as your entire body goes rigid," and your players are like "awww snap!")

The main problem with saying "you can't Force push/pull with Move" is that Bind requires a Force Rating of 2! That means that the iconic Force push power (the simple ability to thrust someone back a few feet, not even to deal damage) is suddenly out of reach for your starting characters if you pigeonhole it thusly.

I wouldn't have a problem with an FR2 requirement to push...we don't see Ahsoka do it until much later in her Padawan years.

Seeing as how they get slammed into the ground...that is push right into the ground...they amount of mental gymnastics you go through to so only consider one way of doing things.

No, they don't get "slammed into" the ground. Most targets do get knocked off of their feet, but they're not being picked up and slammed into the ground.

Been playing this game for years now, and have been using Move for Force push. It works just fine. Bind can do something similar, but Move does it much better. Just because the "default" speed of the Move basic power is slow and deliberate doesn't mean that it only EVER has two speeds (slow and lethal). One would imagine that with more experience, one would actually get better at moving things at a quicker pace, even without hurling then to cause damage. Again, "default" doesn't mean "only."

The main problem with saying "you can't Force push/pull with Move" is that Bind requires a Force Rating of 2! That means that the iconic Force push power (the simple ability to thrust someone back a few feet, not even to deal damage) is suddenly out of reach for your starting characters if you pigeonhole it thusly.

Again I'll say: Move works just fine for push/pull. The developers have already ruled on it. I've played it that way for many a game, and I've never had any complaints. In fact it had been at the center of a good few highlights of my gaming experience. (So had Bind, come to think of it. Oh there is something so blasted powerful about saying "you suddenly feel your throat constricting as your entire body goes rigid," and your players are like "awww snap!")

The main problem with saying "you can't Force push/pull with Move" is that Bind requires a Force Rating of 2! That means that the iconic Force push power (the simple ability to thrust someone back a few feet, not even to deal damage) is suddenly out of reach for your starting characters if you pigeonhole it thusly.

I wouldn't have a problem with an FR2 requirement to push...we don't see Ahsoka do it until much later in her Padawan years.

Whafrog is correct here. We don't really see inexperienced padawans using Force Push. Obi Wan was able to iuse it in TPM because he was already at a point in his training where he was ready for the Jedi Trials. His training was basically complete and he had a FR of at least 2-3.

The main problem with saying "you can't Force push/pull with Move" is that Bind requires a Force Rating of 2! That means that the iconic Force push power (the simple ability to thrust someone back a few feet, not even to deal damage) is suddenly out of reach for your starting characters if you pigeonhole it thusly.

The fact that Move is way too easy to use is exactly why I think it is ridiculous that you don't need more specialized powers to toss people around. With move as written Yoda lifting the X-wing would have been a minor effort that takes a mere 45 XP to learn and can be pulled off on a single force die.

If you're someone who likes the aesthetic of Episodes 4 through 6 and isn't super into all the power creep the TV shows and later movies added Move is simply a really badly written power. The first three movies seem to make it very clear that Force powers that work on a subtle level where you can dispute whether they did something at all or were just blind luck are much easier to utilize than Force powers that full on and obviously break the laws of physics. SWRP treats Move like a power you can use very easily without much of a force rating at all though.

I mean fine I get it, some people don't think this is an issue, but from my perspective there is a definite difference between Move and Push. Pretty much every other Starwars game ever written has made that distinction and was better for it. You could just as well say that Move is Force Jump, but oh hey, there is an actual rule set for Force Jump in the Enhance power, and it's much better than using Move for it.

Bind is also just screwed as a power. I have never seen anyone take any points in it, because it's so incredibly specific how you can use it and how you need dark side points to use certain aspects of it and so on. It seems like it's a power that's written for a system of highly specific powers while Move is a power that's written for a system of absurdly broad worded powers, and there is simply no reason to go for the highly specific stuff in a game that has both.

I wouldn't have a problem with an FR2 requirement to push...we don't see Ahsoka do it until much later in her Padawan years.

Whafrog is correct here. We don't really see inexperienced padawans using Force Push. Obi Wan was able to iuse it in TPM because he was already at a point in his training where he was ready for the Jedi Trials. His training was basically complete and he had a FR of at least 2-3.

And this just supports a long tradition of Force push being accessible to low-level trainees. No doubt that you get better at it with more training (such as the ability to slam multiple opponents into the ground/wall, and of course it is a more reliable power with higher Force rating), but it's a simple application of telekinesis at its core concept.

*not that I would blame you

I wouldn't have a problem with an FR2 requirement to push...we don't see Ahsoka do it until much later in her Padawan years.

Whafrog is correct here. We don't really see inexperienced padawans using Force Push. Obi Wan was able to iuse it in TPM because he was already at a point in his training where he was ready for the Jedi Trials. His training was basically complete and he had a FR of at least 2-3.

Are you forgetting the Clone Wars movie?* Ahsoka uses a "Force push" in her very first battle, against those LR-57 droids.

I don't recall that. I do recall her pulling like mad on a piece of wall with a hole in it, and yelling "don't move!" to Anakin. I have no problem with that kind of thing.*

I'll have to rewatch I guess, I don't recall an actual push...though they never came out with an HD version on iTunes, so I'll blame you if my eyes go bad

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* ...to a point. I think almost any application of Move should have a cost and I'm rewriting my version to reflect this.

Ok so I'm not commenting on the main discussion about Move/Bind like I said but I have a little anecdote I noticed in Lords of the Sith.

Palpatine & Vader both use telekinesis on Freighter ships, slamming them into the ground. It was a crazy moment. Enjoying the book so far.

Ahsoka's altercation with the LR-57 is at 22 minutes into the movie. She slices its legs, then gives it a thrust, sending it sprawling and activating several more LR-57s in the process