That seemed a lot farther than Medium range. Maybe the very edge of Medium range if so. Still, if you take the appropriate maneuver/actions and strain, then I see no reason not to allow your players to narrate that they leaped the entire distance in 1 go.

Several dozen meters can be be well over 200 feet. Using a metric of 1 meter = 3.3 feet (usual conversion rate) and figuring that "several dozen" equates to 72 meters, that'd be about 237 feet of distance, which may be towards the outer limits of medium range, but still within bounds of the range band.

I think a number of GMs don't quite realize how far of a distance medium range can actually cover.

Given what just happened in Rebels, I am further convinced that Move is the push/pull power.

Kanan used it to just push Ezra (he did not pick him up and toss him, Ezra jumped and Kanan pushed him) to a platform at least long range away. We've seen a smaller version of this when he and Ezra slingshotted each other down corridors in season 2.

He also used what had to be Move to lift what looked like a Silhouette 3 rock bridge and put it in place for people to move across. It was only after having to hold it in place for what I'm guessing was a few minutes that Kanan started struggling... He lifted it and moved it with seemingly no effort at first (the struggle he had being a narrative explanation of the strain he started to take per round that he kept this object suspended, per the sidebar rules on Move). This makes me feel like if he needed to, he could move an even larger object just for a shorter period of time.

Also, he made a single jump to the same area he pushed Ezra to. I'm gonna figure that's a narrative explanation of using the leap power 2-3 times.

I see it as more evidence of the Bind move upgrade being the Force Push. Once again, this isn't a slow lifting of the individual and levitating him over, which would be the base Move power; and it's not lifting him and hurling him at another individual for accuracy and damage, which would be the Move h url upgrade. This is Kanaan pushing Ezra one range band away at speed in order to clear the chasm. This is what the Bind movement upgrade does as written.

Given what just happened in Rebels, I am further convinced that Move is the push/pull power.

Kanan used it to just push Ezra (he did not pick him up and toss him, Ezra jumped and Kanan pushed him) to a platform at least long range away. We've seen a smaller version of this when he and Ezra slingshotted each other down corridors in season 2.

He also used what had to be Move to lift what looked like a Silhouette 3 rock bridge and put it in place for people to move across. It was only after having to hold it in place for what I'm guessing was a few minutes that Kanan started struggling... He lifted it and moved it with seemingly no effort at first (the struggle he had being a narrative explanation of the strain he started to take per round that he kept this object suspended, per the sidebar rules on Move). This makes me feel like if he needed to, he could move an even larger object just for a shorter period of time.

Also, he made a single jump to the same area he pushed Ezra to. I'm gonna figure that's a narrative explanation of using the leap power 2-3 times.

I see it as more evidence of the Bind move upgrade being the Force Push. Once again, this isn't a slow lifting of the individual and levitating him over, which would be the base Move power; and it's not lifting him and hurling him at another individual for accuracy and damage, which would be the Move h url upgrade. This is Kanaan pushing Ezra one range band away at speed in order to clear the chasm. This is what the Bind movement upgrade does as written.

And then Ezra is immobilised for the next round... great plan.

As for the "Move renders any obstacle irrelevant" statement, there are consequences for tearing things apart. First off there is the very concrete unnecessary destruction leading to gaining conflict. Then there are the NPC's who get jack of their stuff being destroyed all the time, they stop paying, stop hiring and eventually put bounties out on the PC's.

Just because you CAN rip a door off its hinges doesn't mean you should. Do it often enough and your going to be using Dark Side Points to fuel your Force Powers. Then the pc has to find a way to still get along with their companions, or change their ways and start climbing the treacherously difficult path to 70 and redemption.

Seriously it sounds like the Conflict system is where you need to focus to handle this PC in the game.

You can't just award conflict every single time someone uses Move in a destructive way, only when whatever you're destroying is specifically owned by innocent people, and placing innocent people in the scene is the #1 thing that hampers force power use anyways, it just isn't always possible if you want adventures with different themes.

Would Palpatine sit on his throne chuckling maniacally as you tear tour prison appart and wipe the floor with it while making your escape? You bet he would. if there are other ways of dealing with the situation, and those ways are harder yet less destructive then your getting Conflict, perhaps at a slight reduction, but your still getting it.

Then there is the whole question of excessive use of force.

Did you absolutely have to drop a house sized boulder on that AT-ST? Probably not, just tipping it over to stop it chasing you or blocking its path would be enough.

Was a blast door required to take down that squad of troopers? Unlikely, you could have just moved them out of range or taken there rifles or thrown them against the wall.

Did you absolutely have to tear a hole in this ancient monument your exploring just to stop a Nexu? Nope again.

Picking up that priceless artefact from across the bottomless pit seems easy, until there is a complex locking mechanism... or a trap that would have been obvious where you standing next to it.

Get you PC to have to do multiple things at once, they can do one... but someone else needs to be there. Have consequences that could have been mitigated with less over the top Force use. Have scenarios custom built to allow them to shine, where Move is absolutely the go to power. But also have situations where they are going to need all three upgrade types and need to do it a couple of times even (you can't just put one Silhouette 2 stone in place at a time to make the bridge, all of them need to go in together or it will collapse, and your not always going to be here to act as ferryman)... those 4 Force Points won't all be white.

If they want to do things the easy way they need to get at least 6 Conflict a session. If their more reserved with their approach then 4 or 5 should be your goal. That's only 1-2 Conflict an encounter... not much honestly if this is their only tool in the tool box.

You can't just award conflict every single time someone uses Move in a destructive way, only when whatever you're destroying is specifically owned by innocent people, and placing innocent people in the scene is the #1 thing that hampers force power use anyways, it just isn't always possible if you want adventures with different themes.

Uh... yes actually you can. Page 324 of the F&D corebook clearly lists 3 - 4 conflict awarded per instance of Unnecessary Destruction.

Now whether you are using conflict in your campaign is a different story (and there are plenty of threads on the Conflict mechanic).

You can't just award conflict every single time someone uses Move in a destructive way, only when whatever you're destroying is specifically owned by innocent people, and placing innocent people in the scene is the #1 thing that hampers force power use anyways, it just isn't always possible if you want adventures with different themes.

Uh... yes actually you can. Page 324 of the F&D corebook clearly lists 3 - 4 conflict awarded per instance of Unnecessary Destruction.

Now whether you are using conflict in your campaign is a different story (and there are plenty of threads on the Conflict mechanic).

And even those that don't use the Morality/Conflict system have their own ways of having consequences for selfish uses of the Force.

This thread is so entertaining. I haven't seen such obstinance sine the days of AluminumWolf/Erik B. This is awesome!! Has a certain someone been resurrected again? Chomp, chomp, slurp, slurp.

This thread is so entertaining. I haven't seen such obstinance sine the days of AluminumWolf/Erik B. This is awesome!! Has a certain someone been resurrected again? Chomp, chomp, slurp, slurp.

I feel like I'm missing on some quality forum history, here.

This thread is so entertaining. I haven't seen such obstinance sine the days of AluminumWolf/Erik B. This is awesome!! Has a certain someone been resurrected again? Chomp, chomp, slurp, slurp.

I feel like I'm missing on some quality forum history, here.

You are...

This thread is so entertaining. I haven't seen such obstinance sine the days of AluminumWolf/Erik B. This is awesome!! Has a certain someone been resurrected again? Chomp, chomp, slurp, slurp.

I feel like I'm missing on some quality forum history, here.

You are...

Story time?

Edit: nevermind, I hadn't realized that was his username. Boy, he must have had a fit when Rogue 1 came out.

Given what just happened in Rebels, I am further convinced that Move is the push/pull power.

Kanan used it to just push Ezra (he did not pick him up and toss him, Ezra jumped and Kanan pushed him) to a platform at least long range away. We've seen a smaller version of this when he and Ezra slingshotted each other down corridors in season 2.

He also used what had to be Move to lift what looked like a Silhouette 3 rock bridge and put it in place for people to move across. It was only after having to hold it in place for what I'm guessing was a few minutes that Kanan started struggling... He lifted it and moved it with seemingly no effort at first (the struggle he had being a narrative explanation of the strain he started to take per round that he kept this object suspended, per the sidebar rules on Move). This makes me feel like if he needed to, he could move an even larger object just for a shorter period of time.

Also, he made a single jump to the same area he pushed Ezra to. I'm gonna figure that's a narrative explanation of using the leap power 2-3 times.

I see it as more evidence of the Bind move upgrade being the Force Push. Once again, this isn't a slow lifting of the individual and levitating him over, which would be the base Move power; and it's not lifting him and hurling him at another individual for accuracy and damage, which would be the Move h url upgrade. This is Kanaan pushing Ezra one range band away at speed in order to clear the chasm. This is what the Bind movement upgrade does as written.

And then Ezra is immobilised for the next round... great plan.

As for the "Move renders any obstacle irrelevant" statement, there are consequences for tearing things apart. First off there is the very concrete unnecessary destruction leading to gaining conflict. Then there are the NPC's who get jack of their stuff being destroyed all the time, they stop paying, stop hiring and eventually put bounties out on the PC's.

Just because you CAN rip a door off its hinges doesn't mean you should. Do it often enough and your going to be using Dark Side Points to fuel your Force Powers. Then the pc has to find a way to still get along with their companions, or change their ways and start climbing the treacherously difficult path to 70 and redemption.

Seriously it sounds like the Conflict system is where you need to focus to handle this PC in the game.

The Bind movement upgrade does not necessarily immobilize the target, especially a willing target. It simply pushes or pulls the target either farther away from the Force user or c;loser to him. In fact, the upgrade says nothing about immobilizing the target. And besides, even the base Bind power only immobilizes a target for the current round, unless the user commits dice to maintain it through a Duration upgrade. So no, Ezra would not be immobilized.

Bind basic: spend a FP to immobilise the target UNTIL THE END OF THE USERS NEXT TURN.

So with initiative trickery it's possible that Ezra didn't get affected by the immobilisation, but you can't always have your cake and eat it.

Bind basic: spend a FP to immobilise the target UNTIL THE END OF THE USERS NEXT TURN.

So with initiative trickery it's possible that Ezra didn't get affected by the immobilisation, but you can't always have your cake and eat it.

You can still use the Upgrade without necessarily having to immobilize the target, if you choose not to . especially if said target is an ally . Basically, Kanaan is bypassing the base immobilization effect, and using just the movement effect. Move's base is too slow, and Move's hurl upgrade does not work the way Kannan pushed Ezra. Move's hurl upgrade hurls things at other targets for damage. This is not what Kanaan does with Ezra.

Ok first off I'm not talking house rules here. RAW using Basic Move and only the Range Upgrades a character can take a Silhouette 0 object from Engaged to Extreme in a single round. If you don't like the wiggly time rules that's fine, change them, but per RAW that's what happens.

Second you need to activate the basic power first to have a target to affect.

So Kanaan absolutely used Move.

Show me in the rules for Bind that says you can choose not to use the Immobilization effect when using the base power. You can't. There is no option to bypass that effect just to use movement, as that effect is an addition to the base power, IE you have to use the base power of Bind to use the move upgrade. The base power of Bind says you may spend a Force Point to immobilize the target. If you do not spend the Force Point to activate the base power, you cannot use Bind's upgrades, including the movement upgrade. Therefore, to define the scene in game terms, Kanan could not have used Bind or Ezra would have had his own movement restricted and landed like a plank of wood onto the rock mass instead of orienting his own body on the fall and getting back up immediately.

When I said it was Move that pushed Ezra, I mean it was representative of the base power + range and silhouette upgrades. While the description says it's slow, there is multiple definitions of slow depending on how you look at things, just as there are multiple definitions of fast.

The only real difference we know between the base Move and Hurl upgrade is that Hurl is fast enough to deal significant damage to the thrown object and the target. What we know about the base Move is that it isn't that fast, but we don't have a definition for the EXACT speed it is, therefore it could be fast enough to accelerate him across the casm but not fast enough to slam him into the rock mass.

*EDIT* freaking ninja'd.

Uh... yes actually you can. Page 324 of the F&D corebook clearly lists 3 - 4 conflict awarded per instance of Unnecessary Destruction.

"The player destroys objects, property or other items willfully and without good cause". How exactly do they not have a good cause when they are trying to get past an obstacle in their path? Because there might be another way to do it? By that logic you'd get conflict for breaking your own prison chains because you could have looked for a way to remove them that leaves them intact.

Which is exactly the point. The Force is not supposed to be a first resort. If someone is using it at will and willy-nilly then he is at risk of falling to the dark side.

The obstacle can keep things at bay so breaking it could cause trouble for innocents, Conflict. An obstacle could also be keeping something in that no one wants out which, causes trouble for everyone not just innocents, Conflict. The Obstacles is a work of art a Masterpiece destroying art is both distasteful and Conflict worthy in the right setting. Destroying part of a residence even if they are imperials is punishable under Imperial law and Conflict.. Lets just say wanton destruction even if it helps achieve a goal is conflict worthy.The conflict system is a check and balance to PC's who want to stay on the light side, not so much for dark siders. However dark side characters don't tend to gel well with parties so the party party tries to keep them in check.

Show me in the rules for Bind that says you can choose not to use the Immobilization effect when using the base power. You can't. There is no option to bypass that effect just to use movement, as that effect is an addition to the base power, IE you have to use the base power of Bind to use the move upgrade. The base power of Bind says you may spend a Force Point to immobilize the target. If you do not spend the Force Point to activate the base power, you cannot use Bind's upgrades, including the movement upgrade. Therefore, to define the scene in game terms, Kanan could not have used Bind or Ezra would have had his own movement restricted and landed like a plank of wood onto the rock mass instead of orienting his own body on the fall and getting back up immediately.

When I said it was Move that pushed Ezra, I mean it was representative of the base power + range and silhouette upgrades. While the description says it's slow, there is multiple definitions of slow depending on how you look at things, just as there are multiple definitions of fast.

The only real difference we know between the base Move and Hurl upgrade is that Hurl is fast enough to deal significant damage to the thrown object and the target. What we know about the base Move is that it isn't that fast, but we don't have a definition for the EXACT speed it is, therefore it could be fast enough to accelerate him across the casm but not fast enough to slam him into the rock mass.

*EDIT* freaking ninja'd.

Actually, yes, the term "slow" has been clarified before. The "slow" movement of the basic Move power is walking speed . This was actually mentioned by the developers when they were asked about using Move to fly or levitate. Any faster than that requires the hurl upgrade, which is specifically designed to hurl objects as projectiles at a target for damage, as we see Vader do to Luke in ESB.

And, as for not being allowed to bypass a given function of a base power when using an upgrade, just because you have to pay the FPs, does not mean you specifically have to enact that part of a power. This is a narrative system and very flexible one as well.

Also, if you read the base use of the Bind power it say the use may spend FPs to immobilize the target. Therefore, the user is not required to immobilize the target.

Uh... yes actually you can. Page 324 of the F&D corebook clearly lists 3 - 4 conflict awarded per instance of Unnecessary Destruction.

"The player destroys objects, property or other items willfully and without good cause". How exactly do they not have a good cause when they are trying to get past an obstacle in their path? Because there might be another way to do it? By that logic you'd get conflict for breaking your own prison chains because you could have looked for a way to remove them that leaves them intact.

The quick and easy way is they way of the dark side. What you are describing is the quick and easy way.

Yes if they use the force as the first last and only resort to get past things, because its easy its conflict.

The Dark Side is quick and easy not stronger or better.

First problem with using move its not subtle.

Second Problem using Move to brute force your way past things generates conflict quite a bit in fact.

Third problem with using move is barring a high force rating, good willpower and better discipline its unpredictable at best ineffective at worst. Before I hit a 3 force rating (which I did quickly) it wouldn't work 3/4ths of the time unless I spent dark side pips.

The point being move is not the problem in your game its your excuse.

Uh... yes actually you can. Page 324 of the F&D corebook clearly lists 3 - 4 conflict awarded per instance of Unnecessary Destruction.

"The player destroys objects, property or other items willfully and without good cause". How exactly do they not have a good cause when they are trying to get past an obstacle in their path? Because there might be another way to do it? By that logic you'd get conflict for breaking your own prison chains because you could have looked for a way to remove them that leaves them intact.

The quick and easy way is they way of the dark side. What you are describing is the quick and easy way.

Breaking your prison chains once will probably be ok, but its systematic reliance on maximum force that your trying to stop here. i get that its not easy, i cant do it well myself in the heat of the moment

"Also, if you read the base use of the Bind power it say the use may spend FPs to immobilize the target. Therefore, the user is not required to immobilize the target."

Actually, no. Because the term may is before the entire clause of the base power, it means you may spend a force point to activate the power as described. You also may choose not to use force points to activate the power, in which case, you do not activate the power at all. You can not pick and choose how the power works, the only choice there is to activate it or not. The reason it is written with the word may is so that the user is not forced into using the power with dark side points if they are a light side user, or vice versa.

Uh... yes actually you can. Page 324 of the F&D corebook clearly lists 3 - 4 conflict awarded per instance of Unnecessary Destruction.

"The player destroys objects, property or other items willfully and without good cause". How exactly do they not have a good cause when they are trying to get past an obstacle in their path? Because there might be another way to do it? By that logic you'd get conflict for breaking your own prison chains because you could have looked for a way to remove them that leaves them intact.

Because not every obstacle in their path requires a sledgehammer, even if it is dungeon crawling through the remains of an ancient Jedi temple.