When you get one, find out when the correct stats for the Sentinel-class shuttle are going to appear.

Of course, either Aetrion or Tramp Graphics could ask themselves to see if the answer's changed since the release of the FaD core rulebook (Beta or otherwise). But I doubt they will, since they'd be running the risk that they would have to fess up to the notion they've been wrong on the matter the entire time.

Actually, I have already done that. Still waiting on a response.

Isn't the Beta version still floating around out there? What about the Alpha version?

Actually I can imagine what the response will be. That either can be used to simulate Force pull/push. Different paths to somewhat similar results. There are now many Force powers and sometimes there may be some overlap in abilities just as there are with some talents such as regular versions and Force versions. Not exactly the same but similar. This allows people to create characters that have some similar without traveling the same route or having to diversify too much. This isn't a bad thing but a conscious design decision. So one Force character can specialize in Move if he wants while another focuses on Bind. There will be some cross-over, but overall more difference depending on the rest of their builds.

This experiment in edge case builds that will unbalance the game, while interesting, is ultimately a non-issue. If it was we would be hearing more about them and they wouldn't be edge cases. As it is the game has been out for about five years and while it may need some tweaks here and there, overall it runs quite well. this whole "sky is falling" in various forms comes up every once in a while but usually amounts to nothing.

Of course, either Aetrion or Tramp Graphics could ask themselves to see if the answer's changed since the release of the FaD core rulebook (Beta or otherwise). But I doubt they will, since they'd be running the risk that they would have to fess up to the notion they've been wrong on the matter the entire time.

Actually, I have already done that. Still waiting on a response.

Isn't the Beta version still floating around out there? What about the Alpha version?

"Alpha" would have only been released to those folks listed as playtesters in the credits, and would not be seen by the public unless one of the playtesters very foolishly broke their NDA and posted the material online.

Having done playtesting for FFG in the past, myself and others can attest that the "alpha" playtest materials are generally in a much more unrefined format. The Beta versions of each of the three core rulebooks were in a fairly refined state in terms of appearance, even if they lacked a lot of the artwork of the final versions.

Actually I can imagine what the response will be. That either can be used to simulate Force pull/push. Different paths to somewhat similar results. There are now many Force powers and sometimes there may be some overlap in abilities just as there are with some talents such as regular versions and Force versions. Not exactly the same but similar. This allows people to create characters that have some similar without traveling the same route or having to diversify too much. This isn't a bad thing but a conscious design decision. So one Force character can specialize in Move if he wants while another focuses on Bind. There will be some cross-over, but overall more difference depending on the rest of their builds.

This experiment in edge case builds that will unbalance the game, while interesting, is ultimately a non-issue. If it was we would be hearing more about them and they wouldn't be edge cases. As it is the game has been out for about five years and while it may need some tweaks here and there, overall it runs quite well. this whole "sky is falling" in various forms comes up every once in a while but usually amounts to nothing.

Depends on what question was asked.

If the question was "can I use Move to affect characters/creatures," then I suspect the answer would be "yes, you can."

If the question was "how do I best replicate a Force Push/Pull?' the answer there might be more conditional.

The best way to replicate Force Push/Pull would still be move.

Bind is not particularly easy to do that with considering the cost involved.

The best way to replicate Force Push/Pull would still be move.

Bind is not particularly easy to do that with considering the cost involved.

I guess it may boil down to how one interprets what constitutes a Force Push style of effect.

If you're referring to just moving bodies around, then Move is the most economical in terms of XP costs, both for acquiring the power itself and in meeting the criteria to take the power; Move needs FR1, which any FaD starting PC can get, while Bind requires FR2, which is an investment in XP on top of that required to purchase Bind and the necessary upgrades.

If you mean "throwing a person so that the impact with the ground is what hurts them," that's really more the domain of Move, though I suppose one could flavor Bind to work that way (presuming they've used dark side points to generate Force Points), but even then it's a bit of a kludge and doesn't really mimic what we see a Force push in the prequels accomplish, especially the frequent usage of it by Qui-Gonn and Obi-Wan in TPM on battle droids.

Dooku likely used Bind to toss Anakin (AotC) and Obi-Wan (RotS) about, but in those cases it wasn't the hurling of their bodies that did the damage, it was the lightning (AotC) and choking (RotS) that were the culprits.

But the OP's main point was that Move couldn't be used to affect characters or creatures (or even droids) because they aren't 'objects' in the strictest definition of the term, with him and Tramp going through increasingly convoluted verbal gymnastics to try and justify that belief.

I need to correct you on one major point, Donovan. I do not believe that Move cannot be used to affect characters or creatures. On the contrary, it certainly can. Even the core F&D rule book states this flat out. Specifically, in the side bar titled Force Powers and Narrative , It flat out states that a Force user could use either Move or Bind to try and catch a friend falling from a ledge. So Move can definitely be used upon living beings.

I need to correct you on one major point, Donovan. I do not believe that Move cannot be used to affect characters or creatures. On the contrary, it certainly can. Even the core F&D rule book states this flat out. Specifically, in the side bar titled Force Powers and Narrative , It flat out states that a Force user could use either Move or Bind to try and catch a friend falling from a ledge. So Move can definitely be used upon living beings.

Funny, but your many posts in this thread say exactly the opposite, especially your insistence that Bind is what should be used for a Force Push/Pull effect and that Move is ineligible to do just that.

I need to correct you on one major point, Donovan. I do not believe that Move cannot be used to affect characters or creatures. On the contrary, it certainly can. Even the core F&D rule book states this flat out. Specifically, in the side bar titled Force Powers and Narrative , It flat out states that a Force user could use either Move or Bind to try and catch a friend falling from a ledge. So Move can definitely be used upon living beings.

Funny, but your many posts in this thread say exactly the opposite, especially your insistence that Bind is what should be used for a Force Push/Pull effect and that Move is ineligible to do just that.

I never said that Move cannot be used to move people, however, I simply said that the Bind power's Movement upgrade more accurately emmulates Force Push and Force Pull since it specifically pushes or pulls targets at high speed closer to or farther from the Force user whereas the Move Hurl upgrade picks up and throws objects (including people) as projectiles at other targets for damage. That is the difference. The Move hurl upgrade isn't pushing or pulling, it's picking up and throwing.

The movies, shows, & almost all star wars media depicts push dealing some amount of damage towards the target, even when they hit walls or the floor, as evidenced by various droids in the prequels, palpatine getting knocked off his chair, ezra pushing kallus into a rock in season 1 and into a wall in season 2.

I would say that Move's Hurl upgrade best accurately depicts the force push effect & isn't inherently a dark side fueled power even though it does damage, unlike the damage that comes from Bind, which is fueled only by dark side pips. Given the depictions in the films & shows, it seems like if Bind were the "force push" power, it would mean that a whole lot of characters are constantly using the dark side.

The Bind power cannot pick up objects (it's only used for living targets) and therefore cannot represent force pull on objects, which is what most uses of pull were targeting in the films & shows, whereas an upgrade in Move specifically allows you to pull objects out of an opponent's grasp or out of secure mountings.

Time to go into hypotheticals. I preface this with the fact that I believe Move is Force Push/Pull for both objects & living targets and that Bind's upgrade to allow one to move the target is simply representing what Kylo Ren did to his officer when he choked him at range and then pulled him into his actual grasp. Everything at this point is hypothetical thinking, considering IF the claims that Move doesn't affect living targets is true.

So let's say that we use the strictest representation of the term object with the power of Move.

One could say that they are pushing or pulling the Stormtrooper's armor, not his body. Since the trooper is encased in the armor, he is pushed or pulled along with it. It works in regards to moving the target, what it wouldn't work for is dealing damage, disorienting, knocking over the Stormtrooper, as the armor is the target of the power.

In addition, it would be impossible to push or pull animals with Move, as they have no "objects" secured to them.

However, one would be able to use Bind with animals and there is 0 restriction on the silhouette one can effect. Let's see if I can provide an example that makes taking things in the strictest sense utterly ridiculous. Ah, yes, the rancor. You can choke a rancor with the base power and it can't move in response. Sure it might attack but it can't move. Also, no silhouette restriction on moving the target, so you can move that Rancor out to Medium range where it can't attack you, for an extremely minimal xp and force point investment. Wonderful.

So there seems to be a danger in interpreting the rules in the most strictest sense. That is, unless my rancor example is supposed to be exactly how the power works (moving a rancor with Bind is as easy as moving a person?) and if so, I guess my example was a poor one.

First off, any "damage" inflicted from Force Push or Force Pull is strictly incidental , as a result of hitting another object; usually a wall. And, in most instances of users using Force Push, it is more often to literally push someone back away from the user, not necessarily to injure them. And, in the case of Palpatine in particular, all it did, aside fro m pushing him backwards was make him tumble head over heels over his desk and chair. It did absolutely no damage . In the case of the guards, they were minions, so even strain damage (which doesn't earn DSPs) incapacitated them. Not only that, but given that Yoda was a Master, he would likely have had the Mastery upgrade for Bind, and therefore staggered the guards when he used the Force Push (also no DSPs).

Secondly, the Move hurl upgrade is specifically designed to hurl a projectile at a specific target . This is not what we see Force Push or Force Pull used for. Force Push and Force Pull simply move a target backwards or forwards at speed. There is no attempt to target another individual and use the one thrown as a projectile to hit someone else. It simply pushes them back (and usually off their feet) or forwards (with the same result). It is not used to hurl someone into someone else . That is a major difference.

1. First off, any "damage" inflicted from Force Push or Force Pull is strictly incidental , as a result of hitting another object; usually a wall.

2. And, in most instances of users using Force Push, it is more often to literally push someone back away from the user, not necessarily to injure them. And, in the case of Palpatine in particular, all it did, aside fro m pushing him backwards was make him tumble head over heels over his desk and chair. It did absolutely no damage .

3. In the case of the guards, they were minions, so even strain damage (which doesn't earn DSPs) incapacitated them. Not only that, but given that Yoda was a Master, he would likely have had the Mastery upgrade for Bind, and therefore staggered the guards when he used the Force Push (also no DSPs).

4. Secondly, the Move hurl upgrade is specifically designed to hurl a projectile at a specific target . This is not what we see Force Push or Force Pull used for. Force Push and Force Pull simply move a target backwards or forwards at speed. There is no attempt to target another individual and use the one thrown as a projectile to hit someone else. It simply pushes them back (and usually off their feet) or forwards (with the same result). It is not used to hurl someone into someone else . That is a major difference.

1. Agreed on the damage usually coming from hitting floor or walls but don't you think those incidental rules should be mentioned in the section for Bind if that is how it should be handled, rather than requiring a lot of GM-fu to put it all together and then attempt explaining that to your players?

2. Yet it almost always does some form of damage (try having someone push you to the ground, or push you over backwards in real life; it will hurt).

3. To keep that going, the Yoda PC would have had to commit 3 dice to constantly stagger the guards, as they were dropped instantly and never got back up (also, if you're trying to say they got incapacitated from the strain, that means they would have had to take an action after he affected them with Bind, which they didn't and they would have also had to have less than, say, 6 strain threshold, provided Yoda had 6 Willpower. There is no way otherwise with that power to strain out the target of Bind and that upgrade cannot be activated multiple times.)

4. What force push/pull represents depends on what source you're using for the push/pull effect of telekinesis. If you are only looking at games like the Jedi Knight series or the old Battlefront games, then it only pushes forwards or backwards, knocking down and dealing no damage, though getting knocked down does hurt (btw there's no option to knockdown the target with Bind, just like Move, so you're already getting into oddities not covered by the RAW there). What is depicted in the movies, however, is that moving people and objects seems to be one aspect of telekinesis (or one power) and stopping someone dead in their tracks/choking them seems to be another aspect (power). Both Vader & Kylo Ren have used Bind to move a target but it does not accurately represent the effects of push/pull as the targets were still within their "Grip" & oriented correctly, not getting knocked to the ground. It seems like a considerable amount of effort to say that Bind is push/pull and one can use it to then inflict falling damage on the target. Seems a lot simpler to just use Move and deal damage based on silhouette, as outlined in the rules. Also, who are you to say that the projectile can't be Stormtrooper A's pants, which just so happen to be attached to his body? His pants are an object, so it falls under that strict interpretation of objects only.

1. First off, any "damage" inflicted from Force Push or Force Pull is strictly incidental , as a result of hitting another object; usually a wall.

2. And, in most instances of users using Force Push, it is more often to literally push someone back away from the user, not necessarily to injure them. And, in the case of Palpatine in particular, all it did, aside fro m pushing him backwards was make him tumble head over heels over his desk and chair. It did absolutely no damage .

3. In the case of the guards, they were minions, so even strain damage (which doesn't earn DSPs) incapacitated them. Not only that, but given that Yoda was a Master, he would likely have had the Mastery upgrade for Bind, and therefore staggered the guards when he used the Force Push (also no DSPs).

4. Secondly, the Move hurl upgrade is specifically designed to hurl a projectile at a specific target . This is not what we see Force Push or Force Pull used for. Force Push and Force Pull simply move a target backwards or forwards at speed. There is no attempt to target another individual and use the one thrown as a projectile to hit someone else. It simply pushes them back (and usually off their feet) or forwards (with the same result). It is not used to hurl someone into someone else . That is a major difference.

1. Agreed on the damage usually coming from hitting floor or walls but don't you think those incidental rules should be mentioned in the section for Bind if that is how it should be handled, rather than requiring a lot of GM-fu to put it all together and then attempt explaining that to your players?

2. Yet it almost always does some form of damage (try having someone push you to the ground, or push you over backwards in real life; it will hurt).

3. To keep that going, the Yoda PC would have had to commit 3 dice to constantly stagger the guards, as they were dropped instantly and never got back up (also, if you're trying to say they got incapacitated from the strain, that means they would have had to take an action after he affected them with Bind, which they didn't and they would have also had to have less than, say, 6 strain threshold, provided Yoda had 6 Willpower. There is no way otherwise with that power to strain out the target of Bind and that upgrade cannot be activated multiple times.)

4. What force push/pull represents depends on what source you're using for the push/pull effect of telekinesis. If you are only looking at games like the Jedi Knight series or the old Battlefront games, then it only pushes forwards or backwards, knocking down and dealing no damage, though getting knocked down does hurt (btw there's no option to knockdown the target with Bind, just like Move, so you're already getting into oddities not covered by the RAW there). What is depicted in the movies, however, is that moving people and objects seems to be one aspect of telekinesis (or one power) and stopping someone dead in their tracks/choking them seems to be another aspect (power). Both Vader & Kylo Ren have used Bind to move a target but it does not accurately represent the effects of push/pull as the targets were still within their "Grip" & oriented correctly, not getting knocked to the ground. It seems like a considerable amount of effort to say that Bind is push/pull and one can use it to then inflict falling damage on the target. Seems a lot simpler to just use Move and deal damage based on silhouette, as outlined in the rules. Also, who are you to say that the projectile can't be Stormtrooper A's pants, which just so happen to be attached to his body? His pants are an object, so it falls under that strict interpretation of objects only.

First off, yes, there may be some damage, but not always. Being pushed to the ground doesn't always hurt. It really depends upon how hard you fall or the way you land.

As for the guards Yoda knocked down (or out), It really wouldn't have taken much damage (even Staggering or Strain) to convince them to not get back up, even if they weren't incapacitated. We really don't see them at all once the battle with Palpatine really get going, so, it is just as likely that they hightailed it once they realized they were facing someone completely out of their league. It is also just as possible that Yoda may have "accepted" a couple of DSPs to make sure that they stayed down.

As for Vader and Kylo Ren, Vader typically used Bind to Force Choke his targets, using the base ability with DSPs to inflict wound damage directly. Kylo Ren, however, often used it to immobilize targets, as well as pull them to him (as he did with that First Order officer who mentioned "the girl" who helped Finn and BB8 escape Jakku) or push them back (as he did with Rey just before dueling Finn. So, yes, Kylo Ren does indeed use the Bind move upgrade as described in the core book. This is also what we see in the games you mentioned. In fact, Kylo actually uses Bind in a variety of ways, including to push or pull them from or to him. We don't see him pick up people and hurl them into other people . We see him push them back or pull them forwards, just like in Jedi Academy . Thus, the Bind move upgrade better emulates Force Push and Force Pull as depicted in all media, games and movies combined. Vader only used Bind to choke people, thus using only the base power combined with DSPs.

Also, I never said a projectile can't be a Stormtrooper. It most certainly can. What I'm saying is that isn't Force Push . It's picking up someone and hurling them at someone else with the intent of causing damage to that third party . That is not what Force Push or Force Pull do. Force Push and Force Pull simply pushes a target backwards or pulls them forwards at speed, potentially inflicting incidental damage from falling or hitting a hard object (such as a wall or tree), but not being used as a projectile to hit someone else. That is the difference between Force Push/Force Pull (and thus the Bind move upgrade) and the Move hurl upgrade. The Move hurl upgrade is specifically designed to pick something (or someone) up to hit another individual to inflict damage to that third party. That isn't Force Push nor Force Pull, since that isn't what Force Push and Force Pull do.

So the Move basic power, with a single Strength Upgrade, which can lift a target and relocate them directly toward or away from you without causing any damage isn't Force Push/Pull? But the Bind power is?

Really the answer is they both can be. If your deciding between the two it just depends on what other ways you want to be able to use the power as to which you choose.

So a quick comparison:

110xp in Bind lets you spend 4 FP on Immobilising 4 Targets within Short range and moving them 1 Range band (Short to Medium, Short to Short, Short to Engaged, Engaged to Short). If you use any Dark Side Points you hurt them.

55xp in Move lets you spend 4 FP to move 4 Targets within Medium range to anywhere within Medium. If you want to cause damage you need to succeed on an Easy Discipline check and 6 Advantage/3 Triumph.

I see 2 differences there. Bind is more XP.... but it's much harder to NOT injure your targets with Bind. Seems fitting to me, it follows the flavour of both very well

In both cases, a consistent 4FP won't happen until you have 4 Force Rating.

Also, Move lets you do what you described for 55 xp whereas Bind for 2x that xp lets you move targets of any silhouette but is limited to 1 range band movement.

Yeaaa, the problem is that Move pretty much also does everything else you could possibly conceive of in the realm of telekinesis, while bind does pretty much nothing except control and very slowly move people, while being the more expensive power, and it's damage component is determined by light or dark side, so even on that tiny point of versatility it makes you pay through the nose in conflict, strain and destiny points.

Also the ability to use bind on any silhouette target is pretty irrelevant, because the power can only be used on creatures. You can't even bind an AT-ST or AT-AT, because it's not an enemy, it's a vehicle with enemies inside of it.

Exactly. FR 3 is really the minimum anyone would consider trying this regularly.

Of course the Strength Upgrades of Move make this scale ridiculously, for those same 4 Force Points you can push 5 Silhouette 4 vehicles from one Extreme to the opposite, which is a little ridiculous IMHO, but at least doing any damage with those objects is a Daunting Discipline check.

Bind compels opposed checks against any target of consequence, and they could easily argue to be using resilience, athletics or coordination to do it if they don't have discipline, so I don't think the die roll justifies just how much more powerful and versatile Move is despite costing much less to learn.

Bottom line for me remains: Move is the most broken force power in this game, if not the most broken part of the rules period. It just does way more than any other force power while costing less XP to learn and ultimately it just goes against the spirit of the universe that you can make Yoda look like a chump in the middle of a firefight while you're supposed to be playing someone who's scrambling for forbidden force knowledge with little to no formal training.

It also absolutely rubs me the wrong way that the second you get a single character with Strength 4 move in your party every single physical obstacle has to be a Kaiju-wall filled with Yslamiris with a lava-moat to even pose half a challenge. That crap makes everyone else in the party feel useless, and I hate when powers do that.

Bottom line for me remains: Move is the most broken force power in this game, if not the most broken part of the rules period. It just does way more than any other force power while costing less XP to learn and ultimately it just goes against the spirit of the universe that you can make Yoda look like a chump in the middle of a firefight while you're supposed to be playing someone who's scrambling for forbidden force knowledge with little to no formal training.

Aetrion it is difficult to take your posts serious when you use such over the top hyperbole. Are you actually giving game experiences here or are you just theory crafting 'possibilities' in a vacuum, isolated from the realities of the game?

For me, both Bind and Move can be seen as aspects of Force Telekinesis.

The questions is do you want to punch them, or do you want to grab them and then crush them?

Punching them is probably easier than grabbing them, and if you want to grab them but avoid crushing them, that might take even more effort.

Think about the target being an egg. How hard is it to punch an egg? Now, what does it take to pick up and egg and crush it? Or avoid accidentally crushing it with your fingers while you’re trying to pick it up?

What if the egg was flying through the air towards your head? What does it take to punch the egg while it is flying through the air? What does it take to catch a flying egg, without crushing it?

Sure, there’s lots I don’t like about the way Move is written, but with a conservative reading of the rules, I can fix most of those issues. And the rest can be dealt with by the players knowing that whatever they do to the NPCs, can also be used against them.

Bind is not my favourite power, but IMO it is not overpowered. If anything, it’s slightly underpowered. But, I can certainly see why some folks might choose to use it instead.

So, depending on which precise result you’re trying to achieve, I think either Move or Bind makes more sense. If you’re trying to push, pull, slap, or punch the object, then Move is likely to be the right solution. If you’re trying to grab the object and do something with it, then you probably want Bind instead.

But if you can properly narrate how you use your particular choice of power, then you might be able to convince me that your preferred choice is the right one, even if on first glance I would disagree with you.

So a quick comparison:

110xp in Bind lets you spend 4 FP on Immobilising 4 Targets within Short range and moving them 1 Range band (Short to Medium, Short to Short, Short to Engaged, Engaged to Short). If you use any Dark Side Points you hurt them.

55xp in Move lets you spend 4 FP to move 4 Targets within Medium range to anywhere within Medium. If you want to cause damage you need to succeed on an Easy Discipline check and 6 Advantage/3 Triumph.

I see 2 differences there. Bind is more XP.... but it's much harder to NOT injure your targets with Bind. Seems fitting to me, it follows the flavour of both very well

Except you can't move them from short to medium as it would move them out of your bind's range.

In order to use a power on someone they have to stay with in your range once out of that range the power no longer works.

So a quick comparison:

110xp in Bind lets you spend 4 FP on Immobilising 4 Targets within Short range and moving them 1 Range band (Short to Medium, Short to Short, Short to Engaged, Engaged to Short). If you use any Dark Side Points you hurt them.

55xp in Move lets you spend 4 FP to move 4 Targets within Medium range to anywhere within Medium. If you want to cause damage you need to succeed on an Easy Discipline check and 6 Advantage/3 Triumph.

I see 2 differences there. Bind is more XP.... but it's much harder to NOT injure your targets with Bind. Seems fitting to me, it follows the flavour of both very well

Except you can't move them from short to medium as it would move them out of your bind's range.

In order to use a power on someone they have to stay with in your range once out of that range the power no longer works.

Ooh, good call, teach me for only looking at the trees, not checking descriptions. So Range is also required, making it a 5 Force Point action and even harder to achieve.

I actually play a character with a 4 force rating now 4 discipline 4 Willpower and move.

I do not regularly make other players feel helpless in the face of my power.

This is why:

1. The primary fighter in the group is a 5 Agi 5 Int multiple light saber style Shadow. His cunning is a 2 don't ask...

2. The Second fighter in the group is using a jury rigged light repeating blaster in Power Armor.

3. I try to end combat by talking to people. I beg them not to fight us, I plead with them to surrender.

I can pick up an At-At, but I can't really hurt it, because my damage is not on vehicle scale.

I have made cover, ramps. hurled party members to move them to safety, and I kid you not ripped a turret off a space ship with pull so it would stop shooting at us.

Also until recently I had the lowest morality in the group purely from dark side pips saving other party members from death.

Now the most broken thing I have found in the game and shamelessly abuse is a talent called Valueble Facts it has derailed, foiled and made many an encounter go wrong for the GM so many times you would not believe it. Its infinitely more useful for destroying Interdictors, AT-ATs, getting past Droid armies, storm trooper patrols, avoiding imperial customs. etc etc then Move.