Move is cheesy even if you don't abuse it. Lifting 5 AT-ATs with only two force dice is bullcrap, sorry.

Mind you they only move within Short range, so that's quite a compact group... Gm probably should have thought a little more about that. Usually those things would be at least Medium if not Long range from each other.

If an AT-AT is at short range and hasn't incapacitated your PC, the GM is being too lenient. The great equalizer in this game is vehicles against people. No matter how many things you can toss a single shot from a vehicle will take you down.

These points are irrelevant. The objection has nothing to do with "relative damage output" or "the GM failed to balance things" or "the GM allowed the player to get into close proximity" or "somebody might see you and call the Inquisitor", or really even about "player abuse".

With 3 pips a noob can sneak into a hangar and lift 5 AT-ATs. There is not even a chance of failure, and it doesn't even cost any Strain!

This never happens in the media, ever. Nobody moves even a single one, and with the relatively smaller objects they do move, they practically pop a vein.

So the Move rules have no place in my game, and frankly make zero sense in the default setting of the game.

Move is cheesy even if you don't abuse it. Lifting 5 AT-ATs with only two force dice is bullcrap, sorry.

How many force dice should it take?

12. We'll never reach that number, and it's probably well beyond a Yoda or Palpatine, so my sense of aesthetics is safe.

But If five AT-ATs (or other sil 4 objects) aren't in range for the PCs to pull off this trick or even if they but there is nothing story wise to be gained by doing it, why does it matter?

Because it breaks the immersion, and the tone of the story. It's about boundaries. You have boundaries, you've simply chosen to accept the boundaries defined by FFG, which are essentially Legends or TOR. I want the boundaries defined by the movies, because I find Legends and TOR to be too cheesy.

My point was, without saying it, that it's a waste of time trying. A PC may as well shoot the AT-AT's with a hold out Blaster. We don't see it happening because everyone knows it's pointless

Because it breaks the immersion, and the tone of the story. It's about boundaries. You have boundaries, you've simply chosen to accept the boundaries defined by FFG, which are essentially Legends or TOR. I want the boundaries defined by the movies, because I find Legends and TOR to be too cheesy.

My point was, without saying it, that it's a waste of time trying. A PC may as well shoot the AT-AT's with a hold out Blaster. We don't see it happening because everyone knows it's pointless

Well, doesn't that make the mechanics that allow it pointless? Seems to me you've just proved that Move is mostly useless.

But anyway, I don't want a PC to be able to throw even a single huge object (which only takes 2 pips and decent Discipline). It still crosses the line into total cheese.

Nitpicking the AT-AT example by asking how a situation where being able to do this is useful came to be in no way excuses the fact that someone is able to do it in the first place. Bottom line is, giving a character the ability to move objects weighing in excess of 1000 tons with express permission to rip them from secure mountings at a whim with no real cost, no real chance of failure, no extended efforts or anything does completely change the dynamics of the game in a bad way. It has the potential to trivialize pretty much any physical obstacle you can possibly place in the game.

Actually, I think it is 4 advantages needed to activate knockdown in this instance, as its 2 base for Sil 1, and +1 advantage per sil over that number.

There is no such rule in RAW. This goes back to a wish for more codification. It's ironic that a lot of people who argue that Move works fine RAW then point to the house rules they use to make it work.

I've noticed that a lot with this system, and to some extent the designers encourage it (hell, most answers to the "developer-answered questions" just show us the developers' own house rules). It's not a stance I'm particularly fond of.

Mostly I do like the openness of the system, but usually there is good precedent found with other rules, so not everything has to be spelled out. There are a few areas though where I think it's a problem.

Move is cheesy even if you don't abuse it. Lifting 5 AT-ATs with only two force dice is bullcrap, sorry.

Except you can't do it.

Also the xp to be capable of doing it is in the hundreds.

Lets review

At-Ats are sil 4 vehicles

you need 4 strength upgrades to do it,

Even with full Magnitude upgrades you can lift all of 4.

To throw them is a hard Check with upgrade and to throw all of them requires you to pull of 8 advantages on a 3 purple 1 red probably 2 red 2 purple with the destiny point the dm will upgrade the check with.

Also lets not forget you need at least long range with full range upgrades I'm sure you aren't trying this from short range.

So good luck 1 to activate 1 for strength 1 magnitude 1 for range getting 4 pips on a 2 die roll. you would have to roll double lightside which is rare and by rare I mean highly improbable and you would move them all of a couple meters..

Hell you wouldn't even damage them..

That being said I have tossed one using move, but I also have a 4 discipline 4 will, 4 force character with a lot invested in move.

Move is cheesy even if you don't abuse it. Lifting 5 AT-ATs with only two force dice is bullcrap, sorry.

Except you can't do it.

Also the xp to be capable of doing it is in the hundreds.

Lets review

At-Ats are sil 4 vehicles

you need 4 strength upgrades to do it,

Even with full Magnitude upgrades you can lift all of 4.

To throw them...

We're not even talking about throwing them. Just lifting them is cheesy enough. Point to somewhere in the movies where anybody does anything remotely like it.

Here's a challenge: describe how you'd use Move to handle all 6 of the movie/TV uses of Move outlined here (post 233) https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/236642-rules-lawyering-move-cannot-be-used-to-throw-people/?p=2565466

You can't do it. Move doesn't capture any of that flavour. There are no maneuvers, no incidentals, nothing scales with the FR of the PC.

Move is cheesy even if you don't abuse it. Lifting 5 AT-ATs with only two force dice is bullcrap, sorry.

Except you can't do it.

Also the xp to be capable of doing it is in the hundreds.

Lets review

At-Ats are sil 4 vehicles

you need 4 strength upgrades to do it,

Even with full Magnitude upgrades you can lift all of 4.

To throw them...

We're not even talking about throwing them. Just lifting them is cheesy enough. Point to somewhere in the movies where anybody does anything remotely like it.

Here's a challenge: describe how you'd use Move to handle all 6 of the movie/TV uses of Move outlined here (post 233) https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/236642-rules-lawyering-move-cannot-be-used-to-throw-people/?p=2565466

You can't do it. Move doesn't capture any of that flavour. There are no maneuvers, no incidentals, nothing scales with the FR of the PC.

I admit before you read this that my responses to the 6 examples often require the use of another talent in conjunction with the Move power and in 1 case, is a separate power entirely (Protect). My responses are to show that it is possible within the game's rules but it isn't all just based on using Move and Move alone, so you got me there. No intent to antagonize, so when you read my questions towards the bottom, know that I am genuinely asking you your thoughts.

1. The Force is My Ally talent. Use Move as a maneuver once per session.

2. This is actually 2 examples. Throwing shards of crystal, one would not be able to throw 20 all in one go with the RAW. The other example, for lightsaber construction: given the rules of the game already established, one simply follows those rules for hilt crafting and narrates the look of it.

3. The Force is My Ally talent seems to apply here as well. If you're choosing to go for defense with your Action, that seems fine; I don't recall anyone using cover and then immediately attacking after pulling the cover in front of themselves.

4. This brings up an interesting point, the part about knockdown not being an effect listed. So there are several melee and brawl weapons that don't list knockdown as an item quality. Realistically, if you hit hard enough and the person's footing slips, they can be knocked down. Just because you put on brass knuckles, suddenly you lose the Knockdown quality of bare-fist fighting? Doesn't make sense. I see no reason I shouldn't allow you to knock someone down with a brass knuckle attack or with using telekinesis. In fact, telekinesis seems to be a more logical warrant for it. I'd probably just have it mirror the 3 threat requirement if it's not listed on the item and let it happen with 3 advantage. As far as how powerful it can be, Obi-Wan is a Padawan in Phantom Menace and is seen casually pushing several enemies so hard they hit the ground and are instantly defeated. I can see a reason to not include stuff like disorient, knockdown, concussive with move and it's probably similar to why it isn't included with all the other items it's missing from. game balance and variation. If move had all the things described in addition to how it works, there would be even more complaints.

5. There's almost no "react to xyz" in this game, period. Very few out-of-turn incidentals, though I can think of dodge, side-step, defensive stance as some a lot of specs have access to. The only one I can think of using the force to protect oneself is the Protect power, which allows one to use it as an out-of-turn incidental. Instead, what is often encouraged, is for narration of all actions regarding things. If the falling rocks missed in the attack against the player, I want them to explain how they didn't get hit.

6. Narration could be applied in regards to struggling with heavy objects. The fact is that there is no representation of "struggle" at all within the game's confines unless something starts giving you strain to be able to accomplish that task.

"Spare me. I have no interest in even tempting a player to want to do that because it will ruin the aesthetics for me." You seem pretty set on it being something you don't care to allow in your game. I can respect that. Not all GM's are alike. You however seem to not want to disallow portions of it, because that would create issues with upgrades in the tree being deemed useless. I can understand that too. Then you state that the rules on Move have no place in your game. So are you using some sort of house-rule? How are you dealing with it at your table?

I also have a question, regaring aesthetics, since it seems important that the game matches the media for you.

What is your thoughts on characters in TV/Movies being able to deflect laser fire from TIE Fighters and being able to cut open AT-AT hulls with a lightsaber but in the game it only has Breach 1 and therefore, by the rules of the game, cannot do what is shown in the media?

4. This brings up an interesting point, the part about knockdown not being an effect listed. So there are several melee and brawl weapons that don't list knockdown as an item quality.

They don’t need to. The potential capability to do knockdown is inherent in using the Brawl skill. Therefore, it doesn’t need to be listed as a capability on a “brawl weapon”.

What is your thoughts on characters in TV/Movies being able to deflect laser fire from TIE Fighters and being able to cut open AT-AT hulls with a lightsaber but in the game it only has Breach 1 and therefore, by the rules of the game, cannot do what is shown in the media?

You mean, like cutting completely through the legs of walkers as the ship flies through?

Yeah — not in my game.

I’m more of an OT guy, although I can see things ramping up to PT levels after a whole heck of a lot of XP has been spent. But FU? No — F*** that.

Actually no, only brawling with no weapons has the knockdown and disorient qualities. The only other way to apply those RAW would be with items that have the qualities or with talents.

As far as the lightsaber cutting an AT-AT hull, I meant when Luke managed it in Empire. In the game, there is 0 chance RAW that it could happen with the greatest of effort. 4 armor is just too much to get past with a lightsaber. In the movie, Luke did it in the blink of an eye, with seemingly minimal effort.

Actually no, only brawling with no weapons has the knockdown and disorient qualities. The only other way to apply those RAW would be with items that have the qualities or with talents.

As far as the lightsaber cutting an AT-AT hull, I meant when Luke managed it in Empire. In the game, there is 0 chance RAW that it could happen with the greatest of effort. 4 armor is just too much to get past with a lightsaber. In the movie, Luke did it in the blink of an eye, with seemingly minimal effort.

The Qualities of Brawl-weapons add to (or replace in the case of ranked Qualities) the Qualities of an unarmed attack. This means that every Brawl weapon has Knockdown unless it specifically states otherwise.

Move is cheesy even if you don't abuse it. Lifting 5 AT-ATs with only two force dice is bullcrap, sorry.

Except you can't do it.

Also the xp to be capable of doing it is in the hundreds.

Lets review

At-Ats are sil 4 vehicles

you need 4 strength upgrades to do it,

Even with full Magnitude upgrades you can lift all of 4.

To throw them...

We're not even talking about throwing them. Just lifting them is cheesy enough. Point to somewhere in the movies where anybody does anything remotely like it.

Here's a challenge: describe how you'd use Move to handle all 6 of the movie/TV uses of Move outlined here (post 233) https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/236642-rules-lawyering-move-cannot-be-used-to-throw-people/?p=2565466

You can't do it. Move doesn't capture any of that flavour. There are no maneuvers, no incidentals, nothing scales with the FR of the PC.

What is move going to do with 4 At-Ats?

Move is slow by rules it can't be sustained (There are optional rules and those pretty much make it impossible for a 2 force person to do it.) You have to have hurl in order to move them any real distance, because the basic move is 3 meters and done.

Move entirely scales with Force Rating (I should know I actually have move play the game and used it from 2-4 FR)

I can do pretty much everything in the movies that you can do with Move.

Force slam (I have been known to slam storm troopers into walls.)

Yank objects out of mountings (Did this with a statue in a ruined Jedi temple) All Vader Style..

I've done the rebels style hurl my companion into a space ship while the bay we were in was decompressing (He took the damage like a champ)

Expert disarm after parrying blaster bolts I'm not cool enough to use an armored gauntlet (Yeap done this too)

Recovered a lightsaber while unable to move (Yeap)

Bounced an unignited lightsaber off someone's head caught and ignited it (Done that too).

Floated Droids across things? Oh yeah even stuck one up on a roof once to keep it safe.

You sir lack imagination and are full of BS.

A lot of weapon qualities are really just the 2 advantage guaranteed version of the 3 advantage "Inflict whatever effect the GM allows you" clause, so basically there is never an effective argument that any particular weapon or power isn't representative of the movies because it did something extra, like knock someone over.

Nah. Worst written rule is vehicle encumberance. The rules actually tell you to ignore the rules. They're that bad.

Actually, I'd say the Autofire weapon quality, especially when combined with the Jury-Rigged talent and used at short range would nab the top spot for worst written rule in the game, with vehicle encumbrance being a very close second. Most Autofire weapons have a base damage of 10 or more, then apply Jury-Rigged to reduce the advantage cost to 1 per extra shot, and you've got a PC that's a bonafide murder machine. And at least one dev (Andy Fischer) said this combo was perfectly rules legal to the point of (jokingly) encouraging it. Now your PC can mow down minion groups with ease, and BBEGs can be mowed down almost as quickly.

At least the Auto-fire rules are clearly written. Move is less so, and vehicle EC is a total null.

I admit before you read this that my responses to the 6 examples often require the use of another talent in conjunction with the Move power and in 1 case, is a separate power entirely (Protect).

For the first part, that's one of the problems I'm having with the entire F&D line, that the careers and abilities to too fragmented. You can't really spec a TCW Jedi without diving into half the trees and plucking what you need. Just your first case alone (having the Force is my Ally talent) means hardly any Jedi could do what we see them do all the time.

Protect is a reasonable option, given that the Jedi who can do this seem to be on the more powerful side. So I'll drop that one from my requirements list

Then you state that the rules on Move have no place in your game. So are you using some sort of house-rule? How are you dealing with it at your table?

Yes, I made my own, this post in this thread: https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/236642-rules-lawyering-move-cannot-be-used-to-throw-people/?p=2537309

Now, however, I'm thinking I approached it from the wrong direction. I was trying to deflate the existing Move while keeping it potent at higher levels, but I should have simply built out the list of requirements and started fresh. So I might start over.

What is your thoughts on characters in TV/Movies being able to deflect laser fire from TIE Fighters and being able to cut open AT-AT hulls with a lightsaber but in the game it only has Breach 1 and therefore, by the rules of the game, cannot do what is shown in the media?

Then the rules should change. I don't like the vehicular scaling in the game anyway, the 10x multiplier is simple (which the game system leans towards), but overly simplistic. Lightsabers should have Breach "whatever you need", though some things might take more time. Something like Sunder might actually be a better quality to model on, with different materials requiring different numbers of advantages to cut through.

It's not something I've had to deal with yet, so I'll have to see how it plays out. It's coming soon though: my PCs have stolen an Inquisitor's lightsaber and once they finish the current quest of stealing a TIE fighter, they will be on the hunt for their own crystals...

As for your specific example of Luke in E5, he didn't breach the hull, he sliced a locking mechanism on a hatch door. He didn't make a hole, the door slides back. In Rebels they slice the legs of a walker, but I'm actually okay with that. Notice they didn't lift them...

You sir lack imagination and are full of BS.

I don't think you're understanding the issue.

What is your thoughts on characters in TV/Movies being able to deflect laser fire from TIE Fighters and being able to cut open AT-AT hulls with a lightsaber but in the game it only has Breach 1 and therefore, by the rules of the game, cannot do what is shown in the media?

Then the rules should change. I don't like the vehicular scaling in the game anyway, the 10x multiplier is simple (which the game system leans towards), but overly simplistic. Lightsabers should have Breach "whatever you need", though some things might take more time. Something like Sunder might actually be a better quality to model on, with different materials requiring different numbers of advantages to cut through.

Had an additional thought about this. It's never really spelled out in the media, but in some scenes it seems like proficient masters can channel the Force through their lightsaber, and this is not really captured in the game mechanics. An example might be Qui Gon at the beginning of E1, where he realizes the blast doors have been shut, and he responds by really turning up the heat. Perhaps the Force user should be able to add pips as part of their Lightsaber skill, and use it to add qualities, e.g.: Breach = pips, or Breach = 1 + (pips / 2). This makes Kanan's Rebels feat explainable, and perhaps why Luke never even tried in E5.

What is your thoughts on characters in TV/Movies being able to deflect laser fire from TIE Fighters and being able to cut open AT-AT hulls with a lightsaber but in the game it only has Breach 1 and therefore, by the rules of the game, cannot do what is shown in the media?

Then the rules should change. I don't like the vehicular scaling in the game anyway, the 10x multiplier is simple (which the game system leans towards), but overly simplistic. Lightsabers should have Breach "whatever you need", though some things might take more time. Something like Sunder might actually be a better quality to model on, with different materials requiring different numbers of advantages to cut through.

Had an additional thought about this. It's never really spelled out in the media, but in some scenes it seems like proficient masters can channel the Force through their lightsaber, and this is not really captured in the game mechanics. An example might be Qui Gon at the beginning of E1, where he realizes the blast doors have been shut, and he responds by really turning up the heat. Perhaps the Force user should be able to add pips as part of their Lightsaber skill, and use it to add qualities, e.g.: Breach = pips, or Breach = 1 + (pips / 2). This makes Kanan's Rebels feat explainable, and perhaps why Luke never even tried in E5.

If I recall, there is a kyber crystal in F&D core that allows some use of the force with it, but only allows one to recover strain with force pips. From what I understand of the lore, a lightsaber should be an extension of the force user's abilities.

You sir lack imagination and are full of BS.

I don't think you're understanding the issue.

There is no issue.

Move isn't game breaking or too powerful or even unbalancing.

You obviously don't play the game and you lack even the basic understanding of statistics to tell you how wrong you are on the subject.

The rules are very clear about what you can and can't do.

See when I see people going you can pick up multiple AT-ATs

I go and?

Because obviously they haven't done the math on the xp cost to do so reliably or even with a statistically probable chance of doing it.

Please do the xp math on what you need to do that reliably then do the XP math on a talent tree.

Then come back here and try and complain about how super broken move is.

We're not even talking about throwing them. Just lifting them is cheesy enough. Point to somewhere in the movies where anybody does anything remotely like it.

Um. . . .

"Um..." what? That's a comic book. And lame. But I repeat myself.

What is your thoughts on characters in TV/Movies being able to deflect laser fire from TIE Fighters and being able to cut open AT-AT hulls with a lightsaber but in the game it only has Breach 1 and therefore, by the rules of the game, cannot do what is shown in the media?

Then the rules should change. I don't like the vehicular scaling in the game anyway, the 10x multiplier is simple (which the game system leans towards), but overly simplistic. Lightsabers should have Breach "whatever you need", though some things might take more time. Something like Sunder might actually be a better quality to model on, with different materials requiring different numbers of advantages to cut through.

Had an additional thought about this. It's never really spelled out in the media, but in some scenes it seems like proficient masters can channel the Force through their lightsaber, and this is not really captured in the game mechanics. An example might be Qui Gon at the beginning of E1, where he realizes the blast doors have been shut, and he responds by really turning up the heat. Perhaps the Force user should be able to add pips as part of their Lightsaber skill, and use it to add qualities, e.g.: Breach = pips, or Breach = 1 + (pips / 2). This makes Kanan's Rebels feat explainable, and perhaps why Luke never even tried in E5.

If I recall, there is a kyber crystal in F&D core that allows some use of the force with it, but only allows one to recover strain with force pips. From what I understand of the lore, a lightsaber should be an extension of the force user's abilities.

There is, the Dantari crystal. My Ataru Striker found it quite useful to have in helping to avoid burning through his strain too quickly, even if it meant foregoing the extra advantages when using Hawk-Bat Swoop. Of course, in order to get any benefit from the crystal, you need to be rolling Force dice while making an attack with the lightsaber, so simply having it in hand while using a Force power won't be of much help.

We're not even talking about throwing them. Just lifting them is cheesy enough. Point to somewhere in the movies where anybody does anything remotely like it.

Um. . . .

So, let me expand: I said "point to somewhere in the movies". You said "um" and posted a picture from a comic book. Strike one.

He's not lifting it, he's doing the sunder thing from the Mastery upgrade. Strike two.

He ain't throwing it, because if he coulda, he woulda. Strike three.

Whereas in F&D, you need only two pips (with a good chance at FR1, and automatic at FR2) and decent Discipline to turn Han and Leia into protoplasmic goo on the inside.

For the love of the game, please admit you see the discrepancy.

posted a picture from a comic book

Still neo-cannon tho

He's not lifting it, he's doing the sunder thing from the Mastery upgrade.

Getting three feet off the ground is still pretty good from where I sit..

He ain't throwing it, because if he coulda, he woulda.

You didn't ask for throwing. You asked for lifting or at least something remotely close to it.

The new Marvel Star Wars comics are indeed considered canon.

And are pretty awesome, for the most part. You can check them out with marvel unlimited. It's a $9 a month subscription service that gives you access to tons of marvel comics, including the new Star Wars ones. They add them to the service roughly 6 months after they are released.