Wow... I mean just... wow. I think your Force Leap (to conclusions) just went out to planetary scale range there.

So what you are saying is the developers actually intended:

1.) The control talent in the Bind tree was written to represent Force Push/Pull but the Hurl control talent in the Move Power was not, AND ...

2.) that damage from said upgrade is calculated by first looking in the rules for COLLISIONS ... (e.g. in the vehicle combat rules, not personal combat rules) AND...

3.) you must then extrapolate that critical hit (which can only be caused to vehicles btw) be converted to personal scale damage BY...

4.) considering it a FALL (even though the the target didn't actually fall), and this fall should be short range, because that is how close the obstacle was? Or would you further rule that if the target was at Long range, and pushed to Extreme range and hit a rock along the way they are incapacitated and take a +75 critical injury?

Do I have this correct? And do I further have it correct that you find, after making all of these leaps in logic, it is still more plausible the Developers intended the Bind control upgrade to be Force Push/Pull, despite the Move power having a control upgrade that SPECIFICALLY calls out the action required, the attack roll needed, and the damage done by said upgrade?

Oh, and finally... I am pretty sure the Bind Power was in fact published at the time of Sam's response, as the F&D Beta was released in September of 2014.

No, you don't have it fully correct. Falling damage table is simply the closest thing we have for collision damage regarding living targets and not vehicles. The Collision rules side bar in F&D only covers vehicles. That's why I said OR, not AND. As for your question regarding a target at long range being pushed to extreme range,The damage needs to be calculated by what range he was pushed from his own current position, not the user's. The target is only moving one range band, so, he's be moving only to within short or possibly medium range from his own current position, even if that is extreme range from the Force user's position. But, once again, that's only presuming he actually collided with an obstacle, not simply as a result of being pushed or pulled.

Yeah sorry... you'll have to forgive me, being a native Minnesotan I tend to speak in inference too much...

Go back and read what I wrote. If your take away is that I didn't quite articulate that that "Falling damage" is the closest thing we have to extrapolating collision damage at personal scale then I am not sure what more to say.

No developer is going to require the convoluted thinking you are using with the Bind Power to adjudicate a game mechanic (at least not one that wants to publish material and/or stay employed).

Um, FaD was in BETA for 12 months prior to release... it had been in development for over 12 months prior to that. So although Sam was unable to comment on unannounced material Bind was already in concept stage.

On the question of "how much damage does Bind cause when you push a target into an adjacent object?"

The answer is given IN THE MOVE POWER!

Bind move is Kylo Ren transporting an unconscious Rey into his ship at Maz's Castle

Move is every single instance of knocking over a target to make them unconscious.

But both Force Powers are capable of replicating each other in different ways. The system is designed so a PC can do a variety of things with a single power without having to invest in another... WTF is this conversation anyway.

No, Move is what he used to carry the unconscious Rey. He was telekinetically carrying her. That is what Move does. Bind is what he was using to hold her still and keep her from shooting at him. It is also what he used later to push her into the tree several meters behind her.

Bind may have been in the concept stage at the time Sam Stewart made his comment, but it was likely not fully fleshed out and tested yet. Thus, at the time, Move was still the go-to power to cover those abilities at the time. That and the fact that Bind and the other powers introduced in F&D were still top secret. Players needed something to use, so Move was the closest thing they had at the time.

The shots in the movies you mention were examples of the Force Push/Pull upgrade for Bind.

Except that's not even remotely how Bind operates.

I suggest you go re-read the text on the Control Upgrade, because all it does is move the target one range band further or closer away from you. There's ZERO caveat in Bind for dealing damage by bashing the target into something, be it a wall or other object. In fact, the only way Bind deals any straight damage is if you use dark side pips to generate your Force Points. The only other method it has to inflict damage is a Control Upgrade that forces the target to suffer strain equal to the Force user's Willpower but only if the target takes an action.

Plus there's a long-standing dev answer from Sam Stewart that replicating Force Push/Pull is the domain of the Move power. I'd call that a pretty definitive nail in the coffin of the moronic notion that Move was never meant to be used on living and/or sentient beings.

That response by Sam Stewart was written well before F&D came out and the Bind Power, with the its push/Pull upgrade, was introduced . And hitting a wall or other object that happens to be between your target and the distance he's being pushed or pulled doesn't need to be in the power's description since it is incidental . It's not a direct part of the power. It's just as using that same upgrade to push a target back one range band would result in him flying off of a cliff that happens to be just within that distance. In the case of the Emperor's guards, they got knocked out, because they hit the wall, not because of the Force power itself. The Force power Yoda used simply pushed them backwards . That is what the Bind upgrade does. If you use the Bind upgrade to push or pull a person one range band, and there is an obstacle in the way, it's going to hurt. If you do it and there happens to be a cliff in the path, the target is going to fall off of it, potentially to his/her death. It's also just as if I physically pushed or pulled someone into an obstacle which happened to be in the way. It's not the push or pull that does the damage . It's the obstacle. Regardless, the Bind upgrade reflects Force Push and Force Pull much more accurately, and is certainly intended to cover those abilities because that's exactly what it does. It pushes or pulls a target one range band. Move picks up a target and throws it (if using the hurl upgrade), or simply levitates it. That does not mean that Move can't be used to similar effect, but the Bind upgrade was designed specifically to cover Force Push and Force Pull in Force and Destiny . AoR and EotE lack the Bind power, and thus Move was used as a substitute .

The timing of Sam's comment is irrelevant. Bind is not force move/push. I am not sure why this is being debated.

Perhaps this is a better way to resolve the question though:

RAW, how much damage does a target take when Bind is used to push/pull them into an immovable obstacle? What is the difficulty of the skill check to perform this action? Please cite rule wording and page number in your answer.

No, the timing of his comment is not irrelevant. It is very relevant. Bind as a power did not exist at the time he made that comment, mush less its upgrades. Force and Destiny did not exist yet. Both Age of Rebellion and Edge of the Empire had very limited Force powers; only four or five in total, if memory serves. As for the damage , it would be whatever colliding with such an object would be of physically pushed into it . Use Falling damage or the Collision rules if you have to. The damage does not come from the use of the power. It comes from collision with an object. Collision with objects(at least with vehicles) is covered in the Collision rules, with people, it's falling . In the case of the guards, that being pushed into the wall is equivalent to a short range fall (10 Strain), which for Minions or Rivals would be 10 Wounds. Falling damage is found in table 6-9 on page 221 of F&D.

It did not exist. But also no where has anyone said they changed their mind on what force push is. So with a lack of evidence saying they changed their mind I have to assume they did not. So move is still force push.

I disagree. Move can be used to simulate some of the aspects of Force Push, but the Bind Upgrade is specifically designed to fill that role exactly, and also specifically emulates what we see on screen as well. The Bind upgrade forcefully pushes or pulls people closer to or farther away from the Force user. That is exactly what Force Push and Force Pull does. Force Push pushes targets away from the Force user. Force Pull pulls people towards the Force user. Those abilities are specifically covered by the Bind power upgrade to push or pull a target one range band. Thus, the Bind Upgrade is Force Push and Force Pull. Move is general telekinesis.

Move does the exact same thing and the devs say it is force push. What part of the devs tell us force push is move and have never said Bind is force push do you nto understand?. They say move. I am sorry your claim does not hold water given that I have yet to see any any evidence to back up your claim. Show me the devs saying force push is Bind otherwise the devs say move is force push so it is move.

Read the description of Bind's Upgrade. It Pushes or pulls a target closer to or farther from the Force user, just as Force Push and Force Pull does. The Move hurl upgrade, picks up and hurls objects in any direction the user chooses. It doesn't push them or pull them. It picks them up and throws them. That is the difference. The Bind upgrade actually pushes and pulls the target, the Move power's hurl upgrade picks them up and throws them. Similar effects, but different means. The very fact that Sam Stewart couldn't reveal Bind when he made that original post, which was specifically dealing with Edge of the Empire , which, as I said, only had a few Force powers, given its focus on other aspects of the universe.also supports , rather than detracts from this view. In F&D, Force Powers became quite a bit more specialized, with less "overlap". In fact, it seems as if they've been deliberately trying to eliminate as much overlap as possible. Thus, It is clear to me, based upon how the upgrade in question is designed, that it is intended to replace Move as the "stand in" for Force Push and Force Pull.

If you want to push or pull do not use the hurl upgrade. Move is far far more appropriate for force push or pull. And gee the devs agree with me as they have said so.

Um, FaD was in BETA for 12 months prior to release... it had been in development for over 12 months prior to that. So although Sam was unable to comment on unannounced material Bind was already in concept stage.

On the question of "how much damage does Bind cause when you push a target into an adjacent object?"

The answer is given IN THE MOVE POWER!

Bind move is Kylo Ren transporting an unconscious Rey into his ship at Maz's Castle

Move is every single instance of knocking over a target to make them unconscious.

But both Force Powers are capable of replicating each other in different ways. The system is designed so a PC can do a variety of things with a single power without having to invest in another... WTF is this conversation anyway.

No, Move is what he used to carry the unconscious Rey. He was telekinetically carrying her. That is what Move does. Bind is what he was using to hold her still and keep her from shooting at him. It is also what he used later to push her into the tree several meters behind her.

Bind may have been in the concept stage at the time Sam Stewart made his comment, but it was likely not fully fleshed out and tested yet. Thus, at the time, Move was still the go-to power to cover those abilities at the time. That and the fact that Bind and the other powers introduced in F&D were still top secret. Players needed something to use, so Move was the closest thing they had at the time.

The shots in the movies you mention were examples of the Force Push/Pull upgrade for Bind.

Except that's not even remotely how Bind operates.

I suggest you go re-read the text on the Control Upgrade, because all it does is move the target one range band further or closer away from you. There's ZERO caveat in Bind for dealing damage by bashing the target into something, be it a wall or other object. In fact, the only way Bind deals any straight damage is if you use dark side pips to generate your Force Points. The only other method it has to inflict damage is a Control Upgrade that forces the target to suffer strain equal to the Force user's Willpower but only if the target takes an action.

Plus there's a long-standing dev answer from Sam Stewart that replicating Force Push/Pull is the domain of the Move power. I'd call that a pretty definitive nail in the coffin of the moronic notion that Move was never meant to be used on living and/or sentient beings.

That response by Sam Stewart was written well before F&D came out and the Bind Power, with the its push/Pull upgrade, was introduced . And hitting a wall or other object that happens to be between your target and the distance he's being pushed or pulled doesn't need to be in the power's description since it is incidental . It's not a direct part of the power. It's just as using that same upgrade to push a target back one range band would result in him flying off of a cliff that happens to be just within that distance. In the case of the Emperor's guards, they got knocked out, because they hit the wall, not because of the Force power itself. The Force power Yoda used simply pushed them backwards . That is what the Bind upgrade does. If you use the Bind upgrade to push or pull a person one range band, and there is an obstacle in the way, it's going to hurt. If you do it and there happens to be a cliff in the path, the target is going to fall off of it, potentially to his/her death. It's also just as if I physically pushed or pulled someone into an obstacle which happened to be in the way. It's not the push or pull that does the damage . It's the obstacle. Regardless, the Bind upgrade reflects Force Push and Force Pull much more accurately, and is certainly intended to cover those abilities because that's exactly what it does. It pushes or pulls a target one range band. Move picks up a target and throws it (if using the hurl upgrade), or simply levitates it. That does not mean that Move can't be used to similar effect, but the Bind upgrade was designed specifically to cover Force Push and Force Pull in Force and Destiny . AoR and EotE lack the Bind power, and thus Move was used as a substitute .

The timing of Sam's comment is irrelevant. Bind is not force move/push. I am not sure why this is being debated.

Perhaps this is a better way to resolve the question though:

RAW, how much damage does a target take when Bind is used to push/pull them into an immovable obstacle? What is the difficulty of the skill check to perform this action? Please cite rule wording and page number in your answer.

No, the timing of his comment is not irrelevant. It is very relevant. Bind as a power did not exist at the time he made that comment, mush less its upgrades. Force and Destiny did not exist yet. Both Age of Rebellion and Edge of the Empire had very limited Force powers; only four or five in total, if memory serves. As for the damage , it would be whatever colliding with such an object would be of physically pushed into it . Use Falling damage or the Collision rules if you have to. The damage does not come from the use of the power. It comes from collision with an object. Collision with objects(at least with vehicles) is covered in the Collision rules, with people, it's falling . In the case of the guards, that being pushed into the wall is equivalent to a short range fall (10 Strain), which for Minions or Rivals would be 10 Wounds. Falling damage is found in table 6-9 on page 221 of F&D.

It did not exist. But also no where has anyone said they changed their mind on what force push is. So with a lack of evidence saying they changed their mind I have to assume they did not. So move is still force push.

I disagree. Move can be used to simulate some of the aspects of Force Push, but the Bind Upgrade is specifically designed to fill that role exactly, and also specifically emulates what we see on screen as well. The Bind upgrade forcefully pushes or pulls people closer to or farther away from the Force user. That is exactly what Force Push and Force Pull does. Force Push pushes targets away from the Force user. Force Pull pulls people towards the Force user. Those abilities are specifically covered by the Bind power upgrade to push or pull a target one range band. Thus, the Bind Upgrade is Force Push and Force Pull. Move is general telekinesis.

Move does the exact same thing and the devs say it is force push. What part of the devs tell us force push is move and have never said Bind is force push do you nto understand?. They say move. I am sorry your claim does not hold water given that I have yet to see any any evidence to back up your claim. Show me the devs saying force push is Bind otherwise the devs say move is force push so it is move.

Read the description of Bind's Upgrade. It Pushes or pulls a target closer to or farther from the Force user, just as Force Push and Force Pull does. The Move hurl upgrade, picks up and hurls objects in any direction the user chooses. It doesn't push them or pull them. It picks them up and throws them. That is the difference. The Bind upgrade actually pushes and pulls the target, the Move power's hurl upgrade picks them up and throws them. Similar effects, but different means. The very fact that Sam Stewart couldn't reveal Bind when he made that original post, which was specifically dealing with Edge of the Empire , which, as I said, only had a few Force powers, given its focus on other aspects of the universe.also supports , rather than detracts from this view. In F&D, Force Powers became quite a bit more specialized, with less "overlap". In fact, it seems as if they've been deliberately trying to eliminate as much overlap as possible. Thus, It is clear to me, based upon how the upgrade in question is designed, that it is intended to replace Move as the "stand in" for Force Push and Force Pull.

Wow is this logic tortured. If they wanted to change it they have had plenty of opportunity to do so. They havent. Likely because kiss says use move. I mean it has everything you need in its description. Unlike Bind where you have to try and word something out.

No, Move is not more appropriate. The Bind upgrade is. The pirate's text bares this out. Remember, Force Push and Force Pull don't themselves do any damage. They simply force s target closer to or farther from the Force user. That is why the Bind upgrade covers Force Push and Force Pull better than Move.

Move does the EXACT same thing only with more options. And includes rules fore if you hit something.

Tramp, it's pointless to argue with these guys, they will just keep insisting that because Move is super broadly written it can do everything, and not understand that making people use Bind is a good idea precisely because Move is one of the worst written components in this system. It is absurdly broad in its uses for how much XP it takes to learn and how ridiculously low its activation costs are, and it's a total joke that if you want to play a Jedi who uses the force to sense things you have to learn 4-5 different powers to get the full range of applications, or if you're a Jedi who influences people's minds you have to learn at least 2-3 powers to be able to do that in every way, but with Move one single power is supposed to cover it all, and that power is far more destructive and versatile than all those other powers where you need to learn multiples are.

Making people who want to be masters of Telekinesis use Bind instead of just letting them dominate the whole game with one cheap, badly written power is just good GMing, screw what you see in the movies.

Tramp, it's pointless to argue with these guys, they will just keep insisting that because Move is super broadly written it can do everything, and not understand that making people use Bind is a good idea precisely because Move is one of the worst written components in this system. It is absurdly broad in its uses for how much XP it takes to learn and how ridiculously low its activation costs are, and it's a total joke that if you want to play a Jedi who uses the force to sense things you have to learn 4-5 different powers to get the full range of applications, or if you're a Jedi who influences people's minds you have to learn at least 2-3 powers to be able to do that in every way, but with Move one single power is supposed to cover it all, and that power is far more destructive and versatile than all those other powers where you need to learn multiples are.

Making people who want to be masters of Telekinesis use Bind instead of just letting them dominate the whole game with one cheap, badly written power is just good GMing, screw what you see in the movies.

No, its pointless for Tramp to argue that Bind is Force Push/Pull when the developers have freaking said Move is Force Push/Pull! And don't give me the crap about "that Dev post was years ago, before F&D came out and is thus not valid" because the F&D Beta was out (to say nothing of the F&D Alpha test that took place months before that).

Aetrion, we all get you have misplaced anger about the Move power. Have abuses actually come up in your games? I am talking actual games, not hypothetical situations? I would encourage you to post your finds in this, or another thread for discussion. Honestly (and I say this with sincerity) I'd love to hear your feedback.

Have abuses actually come up in your games? I am talking actual games, not hypothetical situations?

Not speaking for Aetrion, but ... : My own players have only started to dabble with Move, but I've read enough about what I would consider "abuses" here that only reinforces my opinion that Move is poorly written. It's far too easy to go freakishly beyond movie/TV abilities with a minimal XP investment. In some ways the boundary is defined by Discipline, and the most Force-using player I have easily has the Discipline to start flinging a Sil4 object. That's just too big for my tastes, because...

For my part, all I really care about is the aesthetics. Move is demonstrably hard in the media (Sil3 only by the most powerful), but comparatively excessive in the game. I'm not running a TOR or Force Unleashed game, I'm running a game with the flavour of E4 or E5. I may ramp it up to TCW Season 5 levels at some point, but there are no examples in there of what a Move-noob in the game could do with ease. I could limit how much of the tree they use, but that means 75% of the Move tree is a waste of space.

I also don't like the lack of codification. I don't need everything spelled out, but some consistency would be nice, even if only so I don't find myself in a situation where I make a ruling one day, and then make a different ruling another day and the players call me on it.

Lastly, I don't like the Move power's emphasis on "bigger objects and higher numbers". That's not really what it's about. Mostly Move in the media is used to:

1. get that lightsaber I dropped. This is pretty common, but since Move takes an Action, you'd never use Move when you could instead use a Maneuver and just go get it. So there should be facility to use minor abilities of Move as a Maneuver.

2. work with collections of small objects. Move by RAW only works on "one object + Magnitude", there is nothing specified for throwing, say, 20 shards of crystal in the ruins of Christophsis; or suspending all the tiny parts of a lightsaber during construction even as a youngling. Personally I'd allow a house rule of "small items = Willpower" or something like that, but, hey, that was quick: we're immediately into house rules.

3. use objects for cover. From Bariss tossing down a couple of crates to Dooku blocking Anakin's attacks with a few antique chairs, with Move by RAW there is no point doing any of this, again because Move takes an action, and you'd be much better off in the game making an attack or a getaway than spending your Action getting some defense.

4. violently push things, maybe one "thing" after you've been a Padawan for a while, or two or three if you're a knight. If you're really good, and at the very top of your game and have the FR to match, you can push and annihilate lots of things (ala Mace on Ryloth). Okay, Move by RAW sort of does this...up to 5 things at a time. But it's:

a) all about damage, there is no way to use the power tactically with codified qualities (Knockdown, Disorient, etc) as seen very often in TCW

b) too easy to get to 5 objects even for a neophyte

c) what damage there is is flat (+successes, but that's minor), you can't spend pips to increase the base, there are no codified qualities (Knockdown, Disorient, Concussive, etc...all of which should be applicable).

5. react to falling objects. Happens a lot, especially in TCW, where the rocks tend to rain. If the GM is lenient (like me) the player could flip a DP to create a bubble of some kind, but ideally there would have been some kind of incidental.

6. deal with one heavy object, max Sil3, taking all your concentration. Instead, with only FR2 and a fairly minor XP investment, one Knight level PC could juggle 5 AT-ATs, even if they couldn't throw them. Spare me. I have no interest in even tempting a player to want to do that because it will ruin the aesthetics for me.

That's really not a lot of stuff to account for, and the Move power does almost none of it, while concentrating almost exclusively on stuff that breaks with the aesthetics of what's in the media.

So I don't really need to see examples in my own game when I can read about plenty of them here, never mind just read the tree and see what is lacking. As for this:

Aetrion, we all get you have misplaced anger about the Move power.

...again, speaking for myself, that's pretty condescending. It's not anger on my part, I don't even blame FFG for it, because if they had stuck with only a "movie weak" version of the power, all the Legends and TOR lovers would be squealing about their ruined childhood. However, I can admit for my purposes that there's a **** in the punchbowl.

I wanted so badly to address some of the issues with Move in the FaD Alpha, but it was explicitly not going to be changed because it was already in print, and FFG very rarely change something once it's in print.

Have abuses actually come up in your games? I am talking actual games, not hypothetical situations?

Not speaking for Aetrion, but ... : My own players have only started to dabble with Move, but I've read enough about what I would consider "abuses" here that only reinforces my opinion that Move is poorly written. It's far too easy to go freakishly beyond movie/TV abilities with a minimal XP investment. In some ways the boundary is defined by Discipline, and the most Force-using player I have easily has the Discipline to start flinging a Sil4 object. That's just too big for my tastes, because...

<snip>

So I don't really need to see examples in my own game when I can read about plenty of them here, never mind just read the tree and see what is lacking. As for this:

Aetrion, we all get you have misplaced anger about the Move power.

...again, speaking for myself, that's pretty condescending. It's not anger on my part, I don't even blame FFG for it, because if they had stuck with only a "movie weak" version of the power, all the Legends and TOR lovers would be squealing about their ruined childhood. However, I can admit for my purposes that there's a **** in the punchbowl.

Mostly calling out Aetrion in my post, as this thread was started by him (as a way to 'rules lawyer' a way to shoehorn Force Push/Pull out of the Move tree), and his beliefs the Move power is overpowered. And while he might be right about the overpowered part, every time he was asked to provide some actual in game experiences, he chose not to. Sometimes it is really easy to declare something 'broken' when viewed in complete isolation, and it becomes more apparent its not as bad as perceived when the game is actually played. I can certainly respect your point that canonically, the Move power as written doesn't quite jive with what we see in the films though.

As for my misplaced anger comment, if it makes you feel any better Whafrog it was 100% not directed at you, or anyone who has issues with the move power. It was more a sardonic reply to Aetrion and his over the top comments in his latest post; to quote: "because Move is one of the worst written components in this system". My sarcasm was probably unnecessary and added little to the conversation.

To move on from the bickering for a little while I propose the following simple House Rule. For a slightly toned down Move you could increase the Force Point cost of the Strength Upgrades to equal the Silhouette of the moved object in Force Points. Removing one of the 5xp Range upgrades helps too.

This moves the big object lifting element right to the limit of what even the FR3 talent trees (Sage, Seer & Hermit) are capable of. The effect is a significant XP increase if a character wants this power to be "mastered". Not only is there 145xp in the power itself, your now needing to dive down at least 2 Talents Trees to be capable of Moving multiple Silhouette 2+ targets anywhere beyond Short range.

Eg:

Silhouette 0 at Short is 1 FP

Silhouette 1 at Short is 2 FP

Silhouette 2 at Short is 3 FP

Silhouette 3 at Short is 4 FP

Silhouette 4 at Short is 5FP

Mostly calling out Aetrion in my post, as this thread was started by him (as a way to 'rules lawyer' a way to shoehorn Force Push/Pull out of the Move tree),

I agree with you there. As far as I understand it, Move is supposed to encompass Force Push/Pull.

It was more a sardonic reply to Aetrion and his over the top comments in his latest post; to quote: "because Move is one of the worst written components in this system".

Well, isn't it? I find almost everything else in the system to be pretty excellent. Something has to have the title of "worst", might as well be Move...

There is no such thing as abusing Move.

Its extremely hard to abuse when someone actually knows the rules for how it works.

99% of so called abuses are people who never bothered to actually sit down and read the move rules before running the game.

Yes you can throw people with move.

Yes you can inflict damage with move.

No its not game breaking damage, because by the time you have spent enough xp to hurl someone up into the air at extreme range a Bounty Hunter will have finished his first tree making his Heavy Blaster rifle jury rigged and easily able to out damage, out murder and out kill the guy with move.

Nah. Worst written rule is vehicle encumberance. The rules actually tell you to ignore the rules. They're that bad.

Move is cheesy even if you don't abuse it. Lifting 5 AT-ATs with only two force dice is bullcrap, sorry.

Move is cheesy even if you don't abuse it. Lifting 5 AT-ATs with only two force dice is bullcrap, sorry.

Mind you they only move within Short range, so that's quite a compact group... Gm probably should have thought a little more about that. Usually those things would be at least Medium if not Long range from each other.

If an AT-AT is at short range and hasn't incapacitated your PC, the GM is being too lenient. The great equalizer in this game is vehicles against people. No matter how many things you can toss a single shot from a vehicle will take you down.

And it's 3 Force Points not 2. At Short range. With 95xp worth of upgrades to do nothing more than tip them over. If your looking to damage them it's a Formidable Discipline check with 2 Advantage per AT-AT required. So you need to sink a boatload into Discipline, probably a Dedication as well as 4-5 ranks of training, and you need FR 2 minimum. That's sounding like a 300+ xp character to me, just to even consider this as a possibility.

And it's 3 Force Points not 2. At Short range. With 95xp worth of upgrades to do nothing more than tip them over. If your looking to damage them it's a Formidable Discipline check with 2 Advantage per AT-AT required. So you need to sink a boatload into Discipline, probably a Dedication as well as 4-5 ranks of training, and you need FR 2 minimum. That's sounding like a 300+ xp character to me, just to even consider this as a possibility.

Actually, I think it is 4 advantages needed to activate knockdown in this instance, as its 2 base for Sil 1, and +1 advantage per sil over that number.

And it's 3 Force Points not 2. At Short range. With 95xp worth of upgrades to do nothing more than tip them over. If your looking to damage them it's a Formidable Discipline check with 2 Advantage per AT-AT required. So you need to sink a boatload into Discipline, probably a Dedication as well as 4-5 ranks of training, and you need FR 2 minimum. That's sounding like a 300+ xp character to me, just to even consider this as a possibility.

Actually, I think it is 4 advantages needed to activate knockdown in this instance, as its 2 base for Sil 1, and +1 advantage per sil over that number.

Yeah ok I'll buy that.

So for 3 Force Points and a bucket load of XP you can move 5 AT-AT's up in the air and drop them on their feet... for 0 Hull Trauma (1-4)

For an opposed check (probably Discipline against the pilots skill) and 4 Advantage you can tip 1 of them over.

If it's a Formidable Discipline check then for every 2 Advantage you can "Damage" them for Success/10 Hull Trauma (the 40 damage from Silhouette is mitigated by the Armour 4)

Sounds SUPER effective to me

Move is cheesy even if you don't abuse it. Lifting 5 AT-ATs with only two force dice is bullcrap, sorry.

How many force dice should it take? Does one's power with the Force always have be represented by a high force rating? What if I don't want to have to take six different specs in order to be a "powerful" force user? What if I want to rely on have having multiple ranks of range and strength upgrades instead?

But let's delve into this a little bit more, because mechanically you are correct, this force usage is theoretically possible with just two force dice. Now, how about practically speaking.

*First there is the why. Why are five AT-ATs all clustered together in perfect short range of each other and the Jedi who is lifting them?

*Second there is the 'what'. What does the PC actually gain in performing this action other than getting 5 AT-ATs really pissed at him/her?. He/she can move the 5 AT-ATs from short range to another position in short range. Well, with one maneuver those AT-ATs can move out to extreme range. So what did the PC gain? Make them hit each other? Great, they each take 40 personal scale damage, which is absorbed by armor. A lenient GM could I suppose allow a collision here and a critical hit, but that is awfully generous.

*How? That is how did the PC get themselves into this situation? How did the AT-AT Platoon get themselves into this situation? How is it related to the story being told?

A GM can't always rely on 'soft' controls of a story to explain away or avoid certain mechanics of course (nor should they). But If five AT-ATs (or other sil 4 objects) aren't in range for the PCs to pull off this trick or even if they but there is nothing story wise to be gained by doing it, why does it matter?

Move is cheesy even if you don't abuse it. Lifting 5 AT-ATs with only two force dice is bullcrap, sorry.

Mind you they only move within Short range, so that's quite a compact group... Gm probably should have thought a little more about that. Usually those things would be at least Medium if not Long range from each other.

If an AT-AT is at short range and hasn't incapacitated your PC, the GM is being too lenient. The great equalizer in this game is vehicles against people. No matter how many things you can toss a single shot from a vehicle will take you down.

These points are irrelevant. The objection has nothing to do with "relative damage output" or "the GM failed to balance things" or "the GM allowed the player to get into close proximity" or "somebody might see you and call the Inquisitor", or really even about "player abuse".

With 3 pips a noob can sneak into a hangar and lift 5 AT-ATs. There is not even a chance of failure, and it doesn't even cost any Strain!

This never happens in the media, ever. Nobody moves even a single one, and with the relatively smaller objects they do move, they practically pop a vein.

So the Move rules have no place in my game, and frankly make zero sense in the default setting of the game.

Move is cheesy even if you don't abuse it. Lifting 5 AT-ATs with only two force dice is bullcrap, sorry.

How many force dice should it take?

12. We'll never reach that number, and it's probably well beyond a Yoda or Palpatine, so my sense of aesthetics is safe.

But If five AT-ATs (or other sil 4 objects) aren't in range for the PCs to pull off this trick or even if they but there is nothing story wise to be gained by doing it, why does it matter?

Because it breaks the immersion, and the tone of the story. It's about boundaries. You have boundaries, you've simply chosen to accept the boundaries defined by FFG, which are essentially Legends or TOR. I want the boundaries defined by the movies, because I find Legends and TOR to be too cheesy.

Actually, I think it is 4 advantages needed to activate knockdown in this instance, as its 2 base for Sil 1, and +1 advantage per sil over that number.

There is no such rule in RAW. This goes back to a wish for more codification. It's ironic that a lot of people who argue that Move works fine RAW then point to the house rules they use to make it work.

Actually, I think it is 4 advantages needed to activate knockdown in this instance, as its 2 base for Sil 1, and +1 advantage per sil over that number.

There is no such rule in RAW. This goes back to a wish for more codification. It's ironic that a lot of people who argue that Move works fine RAW then point to the house rules they use to make it work.