The shots in the movies you mention were examples of the Force Push/Pull upgrade for Bind.

The shots in the movies you mention were examples of the Force Push/Pull upgrade for Bind.

I don't see how it is anything other than a use of the Force Move power in those shots of Yoda neutralizing the Imperial Guards at the end of RotS. The only way Bind does damage is by spending dark side pips, and clearly the guards were rendered unconscious by the blow (and those Imperial Guards are not minions).

Unless you are suggesting Yoda spent like 15 dark side pips on the use of his Bind power during the sequence?

Yoda was using the Bind upgrade to push the guards one range band farther away. In the process, they hit the walls. Thus, the power itself did no damage. Hitting the wall did.

Yoda was using the Bind upgrade to push the guards one range band farther away. In the process, they hit the walls. Thus, the power itself did no damage. Hitting the wall did.

Tramp, there is nothing in the Bind description (basic power or upgrades) to suggest you can push or pull a target into a solid object and do damage. The Move power does though.

Trying to explain every single thing that happens in the movies within the framework of the rules is pointless though, because there is actually no power that can take out two royal guards in one go without either throwing Sil 3 objects at them or burning through something in the neighborhood of 10 force points. It makes a lot more sense to look at the rules in the context of what creates a balanced game, and making move into the universally best control and damage power really doesn't.

Also let's not forget that immediately after that scene where yoda takes out the royal guard we see him throw Palpatine and only damage his ego a little, and then the two mostpowerful force users in the galaxy get into a Move-battle and they somehow fail to hurl a half dozen building sized objects at a time like any padawan in SWRP can.

Trying to explain every single thing that happens in the movies within the framework of the rules is pointless though, because there is actually no power that can take out two royal guards in one go without either throwing Sil 3 objects at them or burning through something in the neighborhood of 10 force points. It makes a lot more sense to look at the rules in the context of what creates a balanced game, and making move into the universally best control and damage power really doesn't.

Also let's not forget that immediately after that scene where yoda takes out the royal guard we see him throw Palpatine and only damage his ego a little, and then the two mostpowerful force users in the galaxy get into a Move-battle and they somehow fail to hurl a half dozen building sized objects at a time like any padawan in SWRP can.

Well I don't think it has been established that Move is universally the best "control and damage power". It is powerful without question. But there are lots of powerful attack options using Force Powers (and Lightsabers) in this system.

There is no other force power that even comes close to being able to inflict 20+ damage for 3 force points, making an attack roll instead of an opposed roll, while also having near infinite other utility.

Yoda was using the Bind upgrade to push the guards one range band farther away. In the process, they hit the walls. Thus, the power itself did no damage. Hitting the wall did.

Tramp, there is nothing in the Bind description (basic power or upgrades) to suggest you can push or pull a target into a solid object and do damage. The Move power does though.

Trying to explain every single thing that happens in the movies within the framework of the rules is pointless though, because there is actually no power that can take out two royal guards in one go without either throwing Sil 3 objects at them or burning through something in the neighborhood of 10 force points. It makes a lot more sense to look at the rules in the context of what creates a balanced game, and making move into the universally best control and damage power really doesn't.

Also let's not forget that immediately after that scene where yoda takes out the royal guard we see him throw Palpatine and only damage his ego a little, and then the two mostpowerful force users in the galaxy get into a Move-battle and they somehow fail to hurl a half dozen building sized objects at a time like any padawan in SWRP can.

There is no other force power that even comes close to being able to inflict 20+ damage for 3 force points, making an attack roll instead of an opposed roll, while also having near infinite other utility.

You mean other than Harm and Unleash? You know, Harm, that bypasses soak? And Unleash, that can get a crit activation on 1 advantage (to say nothing of the control effects it can have like Burn and Ensnare)?

Of course none of those Force powers come close to the amount of damage a Hawk-Bat Swooping Saber Swarm wielding Ataru Striker with a fully modded lightsaber can do with those same 3 force points.

Yoda was using the Bind upgrade to push the guards one range band farther away. In the process, they hit the walls. Thus, the power itself did no damage. Hitting the wall did.

Tramp, there is nothing in the Bind description (basic power or upgrades) to suggest you can push or pull a target into a solid object and do damage. The Move power does though.

Trying to explain every single thing that happens in the movies within the framework of the rules is pointless though, because there is actually no power that can take out two royal guards in one go without either throwing Sil 3 objects at them or burning through something in the neighborhood of 10 force points. It makes a lot more sense to look at the rules in the context of what creates a balanced game, and making move into the universally best control and damage power really doesn't.

Also let's not forget that immediately after that scene where yoda takes out the royal guard we see him throw Palpatine and only damage his ego a little, and then the two mostpowerful force users in the galaxy get into a Move-battle and they somehow fail to hurl a half dozen building sized objects at a time like any padawan in SWRP can.

Aetrion nailed it. Whether or not the Bind upgrade has provisions for hurling someone into obsticals is irrelevant. The upgrade hurls a character back a full range band. If something happens to get in the way, well... It's gonna hurt. As demonstrated when he used the same move on Palpatine, however, no discernable damage was done.

So you're going to tell me, that a game mechanic in Bind that does not use the terminology 'hurl' at all, nor has any provisions for damage to a target when they are blocked by an obstacle is in fact, the power Yoda used against the Royal Guard? And that it wasn't the game mechanic Move, which not only does use the terminology 'hurl' for the upgrade that can be used to do damage, but also has specific rules for the damage a target & obstacle takes?

Now I want to use Draw Closer while flying above my enemy with a jetpack. Even if my lightsaber attack doesn't take them out, the subsequent fall they are going to take certainly will.

Now I want to use Draw Closer while flying above my enemy with a jetpack. Even if my lightsaber attack doesn't take them out, the subsequent fall they are going to take certainly will.

Oh now that is just pure genius!

Yoda was using the Bind upgrade to push the guards one range band farther away. In the process, they hit the walls. Thus, the power itself did no damage. Hitting the wall did.

Tramp, there is nothing in the Bind description (basic power or upgrades) to suggest you can push or pull a target into a solid object and do damage. The Move power does though.

Trying to explain every single thing that happens in the movies within the framework of the rules is pointless though, because there is actually no power that can take out two royal guards in one go without either throwing Sil 3 objects at them or burning through something in the neighborhood of 10 force points. It makes a lot more sense to look at the rules in the context of what creates a balanced game, and making move into the universally best control and damage power really doesn't.

Also let's not forget that immediately after that scene where yoda takes out the royal guard we see him throw Palpatine and only damage his ego a little, and then the two mostpowerful force users in the galaxy get into a Move-battle and they somehow fail to hurl a half dozen building sized objects at a time like any padawan in SWRP can.

Aetrion nailed it. Whether or not the Bind upgrade has provisions for hurling someone into obsticals is irrelevant. The upgrade hurls a character back a full range band. If something happens to get in the way, well... It's gonna hurt. As demonstrated when he used the same move on Palpatine, however, no discernable damage was done.

So you're going to tell me, that a game mechanic in Bind that does not use the terminology 'hurl' at all, nor has any provisions for damage to a target when they are blocked by an obstacle is in fact, the power Yoda used against the Royal Guard? And that it wasn't the game mechanic Move, which not only does use the terminology 'hurl' for the upgrade that can be used to do damage, but also has specific rules for the damage a target & obstacle takes?

The Bind upgrade specifically pushes or pulls a character one range band farther away or closer to the Force user. This isn't a slow move, it's a forceful push or pull (pun not intended). Pushing or pulling that hard will throw someone off their feet, effectively hurling them through the air . The Hulr upgrade for Move is designed for using an object as a projectile against a target. That is not what Yoda did with either the guards or Palpatine. He pushed them back with the Force. That is the Force Push Bind upgrade.

The shots in the movies you mention were examples of the Force Push/Pull upgrade for Bind.

Except that's not even remotely how Bind operates.

I suggest you go re-read the text on the Control Upgrade, because all it does is move the target one range band further or closer away from you. There's ZERO caveat in Bind for dealing damage by bashing the target into something, be it a wall or other object. In fact, the only way Bind deals any straight damage is if you use dark side pips to generate your Force Points. The only other method it has to inflict damage is a Control Upgrade that forces the target to suffer strain equal to the Force user's Willpower but only if the target takes an action.

Plus there's a long-standing dev answer from Sam Stewart that replicating Force Push/Pull is the domain of the Move power. I'd call that a pretty definitive nail in the coffin of the moronic notion that Move was never meant to be used on living and/or sentient beings.

The shots in the movies you mention were examples of the Force Push/Pull upgrade for Bind.

Except that's not even remotely how Bind operates.

I suggest you go re-read the text on the Control Upgrade, because all it does is move the target one range band further or closer away from you. There's ZERO caveat in Bind for dealing damage by bashing the target into something, be it a wall or other object. In fact, the only way Bind deals any straight damage is if you use dark side pips to generate your Force Points. The only other method it has to inflict damage is a Control Upgrade that forces the target to suffer strain equal to the Force user's Willpower but only if the target takes an action.

Plus there's a long-standing dev answer from Sam Stewart that replicating Force Push/Pull is the domain of the Move power. I'd call that a pretty definitive nail in the coffin of the moronic notion that Move was never meant to be used on living and/or sentient beings.

That response by Sam Stewart was written well before F&D came out and the Bind Power, with the its push/Pull upgrade, was introduced . And hitting a wall or other object that happens to be between your target and the distance he's being pushed or pulled doesn't need to be in the power's description since it is incidental . It's not a direct part of the power. It's just as using that same upgrade to push a target back one range band would result in him flying off of a cliff that happens to be just within that distance. In the case of the Emperor's guards, they got knocked out, because they hit the wall, not because of the Force power itself. The Force power Yoda used simply pushed them backwards . That is what the Bind upgrade does. If you use the Bind upgrade to push or pull a person one range band, and there is an obstacle in the way, it's going to hurt. If you do it and there happens to be a cliff in the path, the target is going to fall off of it, potentially to his/her death. It's also just as if I physically pushed or pulled someone into an obstacle which happened to be in the way. It's not the push or pull that does the damage . It's the obstacle. Regardless, the Bind upgrade reflects Force Push and Force Pull much more accurately, and is certainly intended to cover those abilities because that's exactly what it does. It pushes or pulls a target one range band. Move picks up a target and throws it (if using the hurl upgrade), or simply levitates it. That does not mean that Move can't be used to similar effect, but the Bind upgrade was designed specifically to cover Force Push and Force Pull in Force and Destiny . AoR and EotE lack the Bind power, and thus Move was used as a substitute .

The shots in the movies you mention were examples of the Force Push/Pull upgrade for Bind.

Except that's not even remotely how Bind operates.

I suggest you go re-read the text on the Control Upgrade, because all it does is move the target one range band further or closer away from you. There's ZERO caveat in Bind for dealing damage by bashing the target into something, be it a wall or other object. In fact, the only way Bind deals any straight damage is if you use dark side pips to generate your Force Points. The only other method it has to inflict damage is a Control Upgrade that forces the target to suffer strain equal to the Force user's Willpower but only if the target takes an action.

Plus there's a long-standing dev answer from Sam Stewart that replicating Force Push/Pull is the domain of the Move power. I'd call that a pretty definitive nail in the coffin of the moronic notion that Move was never meant to be used on living and/or sentient beings.

That response by Sam Stewart was written well before F&D came out and the Bind Power, with the its push/Pull upgrade, was introduced . And hitting a wall or other object that happens to be between your target and the distance he's being pushed or pulled doesn't need to be in the power's description since it is incidental . It's not a direct part of the power. It's just as using that same upgrade to push a target back one range band would result in him flying off of a cliff that happens to be just within that distance. In the case of the Emperor's guards, they got knocked out, because they hit the wall, not because of the Force power itself. The Force power Yoda used simply pushed them backwards . That is what the Bind upgrade does. If you use the Bind upgrade to push or pull a person one range band, and there is an obstacle in the way, it's going to hurt. If you do it and there happens to be a cliff in the path, the target is going to fall off of it, potentially to his/her death. It's also just as if I physically pushed or pulled someone into an obstacle which happened to be in the way. It's not the push or pull that does the damage . It's the obstacle. Regardless, the Bind upgrade reflects Force Push and Force Pull much more accurately, and is certainly intended to cover those abilities because that's exactly what it does. It pushes or pulls a target one range band. Move picks up a target and throws it (if using the hurl upgrade), or simply levitates it. That does not mean that Move can't be used to similar effect, but the Bind upgrade was designed specifically to cover Force Push and Force Pull in Force and Destiny . AoR and EotE lack the Bind power, and thus Move was used as a substitute .

The timing of Sam's comment is irrelevant. Bind is not force move/push. I am not sure why this is being debated.

Perhaps this is a better way to resolve the question though:

RAW, how much damage does a target take when Bind is used to push/pull them into an immovable obstacle? What is the difficulty of the skill check to perform this action? Please cite rule wording and page number in your answer.

The shots in the movies you mention were examples of the Force Push/Pull upgrade for Bind.

Except that's not even remotely how Bind operates.

I suggest you go re-read the text on the Control Upgrade, because all it does is move the target one range band further or closer away from you. There's ZERO caveat in Bind for dealing damage by bashing the target into something, be it a wall or other object. In fact, the only way Bind deals any straight damage is if you use dark side pips to generate your Force Points. The only other method it has to inflict damage is a Control Upgrade that forces the target to suffer strain equal to the Force user's Willpower but only if the target takes an action.

Plus there's a long-standing dev answer from Sam Stewart that replicating Force Push/Pull is the domain of the Move power. I'd call that a pretty definitive nail in the coffin of the moronic notion that Move was never meant to be used on living and/or sentient beings.

That response by Sam Stewart was written well before F&D came out and the Bind Power, with the its push/Pull upgrade, was introduced . And hitting a wall or other object that happens to be between your target and the distance he's being pushed or pulled doesn't need to be in the power's description since it is incidental . It's not a direct part of the power. It's just as using that same upgrade to push a target back one range band would result in him flying off of a cliff that happens to be just within that distance. In the case of the Emperor's guards, they got knocked out, because they hit the wall, not because of the Force power itself. The Force power Yoda used simply pushed them backwards . That is what the Bind upgrade does. If you use the Bind upgrade to push or pull a person one range band, and there is an obstacle in the way, it's going to hurt. If you do it and there happens to be a cliff in the path, the target is going to fall off of it, potentially to his/her death. It's also just as if I physically pushed or pulled someone into an obstacle which happened to be in the way. It's not the push or pull that does the damage . It's the obstacle. Regardless, the Bind upgrade reflects Force Push and Force Pull much more accurately, and is certainly intended to cover those abilities because that's exactly what it does. It pushes or pulls a target one range band. Move picks up a target and throws it (if using the hurl upgrade), or simply levitates it. That does not mean that Move can't be used to similar effect, but the Bind upgrade was designed specifically to cover Force Push and Force Pull in Force and Destiny . AoR and EotE lack the Bind power, and thus Move was used as a substitute .

Can you show me a quote that says he changed his mind? Cause I have seen zero indication he did.

The shots in the movies you mention were examples of the Force Push/Pull upgrade for Bind.

Except that's not even remotely how Bind operates.

I suggest you go re-read the text on the Control Upgrade, because all it does is move the target one range band further or closer away from you. There's ZERO caveat in Bind for dealing damage by bashing the target into something, be it a wall or other object. In fact, the only way Bind deals any straight damage is if you use dark side pips to generate your Force Points. The only other method it has to inflict damage is a Control Upgrade that forces the target to suffer strain equal to the Force user's Willpower but only if the target takes an action.

Plus there's a long-standing dev answer from Sam Stewart that replicating Force Push/Pull is the domain of the Move power. I'd call that a pretty definitive nail in the coffin of the moronic notion that Move was never meant to be used on living and/or sentient beings.

That response by Sam Stewart was written well before F&D came out and the Bind Power, with the its push/Pull upgrade, was introduced . And hitting a wall or other object that happens to be between your target and the distance he's being pushed or pulled doesn't need to be in the power's description since it is incidental . It's not a direct part of the power. It's just as using that same upgrade to push a target back one range band would result in him flying off of a cliff that happens to be just within that distance. In the case of the Emperor's guards, they got knocked out, because they hit the wall, not because of the Force power itself. The Force power Yoda used simply pushed them backwards . That is what the Bind upgrade does. If you use the Bind upgrade to push or pull a person one range band, and there is an obstacle in the way, it's going to hurt. If you do it and there happens to be a cliff in the path, the target is going to fall off of it, potentially to his/her death. It's also just as if I physically pushed or pulled someone into an obstacle which happened to be in the way. It's not the push or pull that does the damage . It's the obstacle. Regardless, the Bind upgrade reflects Force Push and Force Pull much more accurately, and is certainly intended to cover those abilities because that's exactly what it does. It pushes or pulls a target one range band. Move picks up a target and throws it (if using the hurl upgrade), or simply levitates it. That does not mean that Move can't be used to similar effect, but the Bind upgrade was designed specifically to cover Force Push and Force Pull in Force and Destiny . AoR and EotE lack the Bind power, and thus Move was used as a substitute .

The timing of Sam's comment is irrelevant. Bind is not force move/push. I am not sure why this is being debated.

Perhaps this is a better way to resolve the question though:

RAW, how much damage does a target take when Bind is used to push/pull them into an immovable obstacle? What is the difficulty of the skill check to perform this action? Please cite rule wording and page number in your answer.

No, the timing of his comment is not irrelevant. It is very relevant. Bind as a power did not exist at the time he made that comment, mush less its upgrades. Force and Destiny did not exist yet. Both Age of Rebellion and Edge of the Empire had very limited Force powers; only four or five in total, if memory serves. As for the damage , it would be whatever colliding with such an object would be of physically pushed into it . Use Falling damage or the Collision rules if you have to. The damage does not come from the use of the power. It comes from collision with an object. Collision with objects(at least with vehicles) is covered in the Collision rules, with people, it's falling . In the case of the guards, that being pushed into the wall is equivalent to a short range fall (10 Strain), which for Minions or Rivals would be 10 Wounds. Falling damage is found in table 6-9 on page 221 of F&D.

The shots in the movies you mention were examples of the Force Push/Pull upgrade for Bind.

Except that's not even remotely how Bind operates.

I suggest you go re-read the text on the Control Upgrade, because all it does is move the target one range band further or closer away from you. There's ZERO caveat in Bind for dealing damage by bashing the target into something, be it a wall or other object. In fact, the only way Bind deals any straight damage is if you use dark side pips to generate your Force Points. The only other method it has to inflict damage is a Control Upgrade that forces the target to suffer strain equal to the Force user's Willpower but only if the target takes an action.

Plus there's a long-standing dev answer from Sam Stewart that replicating Force Push/Pull is the domain of the Move power. I'd call that a pretty definitive nail in the coffin of the moronic notion that Move was never meant to be used on living and/or sentient beings.

That response by Sam Stewart was written well before F&D came out and the Bind Power, with the its push/Pull upgrade, was introduced . And hitting a wall or other object that happens to be between your target and the distance he's being pushed or pulled doesn't need to be in the power's description since it is incidental . It's not a direct part of the power. It's just as using that same upgrade to push a target back one range band would result in him flying off of a cliff that happens to be just within that distance. In the case of the Emperor's guards, they got knocked out, because they hit the wall, not because of the Force power itself. The Force power Yoda used simply pushed them backwards . That is what the Bind upgrade does. If you use the Bind upgrade to push or pull a person one range band, and there is an obstacle in the way, it's going to hurt. If you do it and there happens to be a cliff in the path, the target is going to fall off of it, potentially to his/her death. It's also just as if I physically pushed or pulled someone into an obstacle which happened to be in the way. It's not the push or pull that does the damage . It's the obstacle. Regardless, the Bind upgrade reflects Force Push and Force Pull much more accurately, and is certainly intended to cover those abilities because that's exactly what it does. It pushes or pulls a target one range band. Move picks up a target and throws it (if using the hurl upgrade), or simply levitates it. That does not mean that Move can't be used to similar effect, but the Bind upgrade was designed specifically to cover Force Push and Force Pull in Force and Destiny . AoR and EotE lack the Bind power, and thus Move was used as a substitute .

The timing of Sam's comment is irrelevant. Bind is not force move/push. I am not sure why this is being debated.

Perhaps this is a better way to resolve the question though:

RAW, how much damage does a target take when Bind is used to push/pull them into an immovable obstacle? What is the difficulty of the skill check to perform this action? Please cite rule wording and page number in your answer.

No, the timing of his comment is not irrelevant. It is very relevant. Bind as a power did not exist at the time he made that comment, mush less its upgrades. Force and Destiny did not exist yet. Both Age of Rebellion and Edge of the Empire had very limited Force powers; only four or five in total, if memory serves. As for the damage , it would be whatever colliding with such an object would be of physically pushed into it . Use Falling damage or the Collision rules if you have to. The damage does not come from the use of the power. It comes from collision with an object. Collision with objects(at least with vehicles) is covered in the Collision rules, with people, it's falling . In the case of the guards, that being pushed into the wall is equivalent to a short range fall (10 Strain), which for Minions or Rivals would be 10 Wounds. Falling damage is found in table 6-9 on page 221 of F&D.

The shots in the movies you mention were examples of the Force Push/Pull upgrade for Bind.

Except that's not even remotely how Bind operates.

I suggest you go re-read the text on the Control Upgrade, because all it does is move the target one range band further or closer away from you. There's ZERO caveat in Bind for dealing damage by bashing the target into something, be it a wall or other object. In fact, the only way Bind deals any straight damage is if you use dark side pips to generate your Force Points. The only other method it has to inflict damage is a Control Upgrade that forces the target to suffer strain equal to the Force user's Willpower but only if the target takes an action.

Plus there's a long-standing dev answer from Sam Stewart that replicating Force Push/Pull is the domain of the Move power. I'd call that a pretty definitive nail in the coffin of the moronic notion that Move was never meant to be used on living and/or sentient beings.

That response by Sam Stewart was written well before F&D came out and the Bind Power, with the its push/Pull upgrade, was introduced . And hitting a wall or other object that happens to be between your target and the distance he's being pushed or pulled doesn't need to be in the power's description since it is incidental . It's not a direct part of the power. It's just as using that same upgrade to push a target back one range band would result in him flying off of a cliff that happens to be just within that distance. In the case of the Emperor's guards, they got knocked out, because they hit the wall, not because of the Force power itself. The Force power Yoda used simply pushed them backwards . That is what the Bind upgrade does. If you use the Bind upgrade to push or pull a person one range band, and there is an obstacle in the way, it's going to hurt. If you do it and there happens to be a cliff in the path, the target is going to fall off of it, potentially to his/her death. It's also just as if I physically pushed or pulled someone into an obstacle which happened to be in the way. It's not the push or pull that does the damage . It's the obstacle. Regardless, the Bind upgrade reflects Force Push and Force Pull much more accurately, and is certainly intended to cover those abilities because that's exactly what it does. It pushes or pulls a target one range band. Move picks up a target and throws it (if using the hurl upgrade), or simply levitates it. That does not mean that Move can't be used to similar effect, but the Bind upgrade was designed specifically to cover Force Push and Force Pull in Force and Destiny . AoR and EotE lack the Bind power, and thus Move was used as a substitute .

The timing of Sam's comment is irrelevant. Bind is not force move/push. I am not sure why this is being debated.

Perhaps this is a better way to resolve the question though:

RAW, how much damage does a target take when Bind is used to push/pull them into an immovable obstacle? What is the difficulty of the skill check to perform this action? Please cite rule wording and page number in your answer.

No, the timing of his comment is not irrelevant. It is very relevant. Bind as a power did not exist at the time he made that comment, mush less its upgrades. Force and Destiny did not exist yet. Both Age of Rebellion and Edge of the Empire had very limited Force powers; only four or five in total, if memory serves. As for the damage , it would be whatever colliding with such an object would be of physically pushed into it . Use Falling damage or the Collision rules if you have to. The damage does not come from the use of the power. It comes from collision with an object. Collision with objects(at least with vehicles) is covered in the Collision rules, with people, it's falling . In the case of the guards, that being pushed into the wall is equivalent to a short range fall (10 Strain), which for Minions or Rivals would be 10 Wounds. Falling damage is found in table 6-9 on page 221 of F&D.

It did not exist. But also no where has anyone said they changed their mind on what force push is. So with a lack of evidence saying they changed their mind I have to assume they did not. So move is still force push.

I disagree. Move can be used to simulate some of the aspects of Force Push, but the Bind Upgrade is specifically designed to fill that role exactly, and also specifically emulates what we see on screen as well. The Bind upgrade forcefully pushes or pulls people closer to or farther away from the Force user. That is exactly what Force Push and Force Pull does. Force Push pushes targets away from the Force user. Force Pull pulls people towards the Force user. Those abilities are specifically covered by the Bind power upgrade to push or pull a target one range band. Thus, the Bind Upgrade is Force Push and Force Pull. Move is general telekinesis.

Um, FaD was in BETA for 12 months prior to release... it had been in development for over 12 months prior to that. So although Sam was unable to comment on unannounced material Bind was already in concept stage.

On the question of "how much damage does Bind cause when you push a target into an adjacent object?"

The answer is given IN THE MOVE POWER!

Bind move is Kylo Ren transporting an unconscious Rey into his ship at Maz's Castle

Move is every single instance of knocking over a target to make them unconscious.

But both Force Powers are capable of replicating each other in different ways. The system is designed so a PC can do a variety of things with a single power without having to invest in another... WTF is this conversation anyway.

The shots in the movies you mention were examples of the Force Push/Pull upgrade for Bind.

Except that's not even remotely how Bind operates.

I suggest you go re-read the text on the Control Upgrade, because all it does is move the target one range band further or closer away from you. There's ZERO caveat in Bind for dealing damage by bashing the target into something, be it a wall or other object. In fact, the only way Bind deals any straight damage is if you use dark side pips to generate your Force Points. The only other method it has to inflict damage is a Control Upgrade that forces the target to suffer strain equal to the Force user's Willpower but only if the target takes an action.

Plus there's a long-standing dev answer from Sam Stewart that replicating Force Push/Pull is the domain of the Move power. I'd call that a pretty definitive nail in the coffin of the moronic notion that Move was never meant to be used on living and/or sentient beings.

That response by Sam Stewart was written well before F&D came out and the Bind Power, with the its push/Pull upgrade, was introduced . And hitting a wall or other object that happens to be between your target and the distance he's being pushed or pulled doesn't need to be in the power's description since it is incidental . It's not a direct part of the power. It's just as using that same upgrade to push a target back one range band would result in him flying off of a cliff that happens to be just within that distance. In the case of the Emperor's guards, they got knocked out, because they hit the wall, not because of the Force power itself. The Force power Yoda used simply pushed them backwards . That is what the Bind upgrade does. If you use the Bind upgrade to push or pull a person one range band, and there is an obstacle in the way, it's going to hurt. If you do it and there happens to be a cliff in the path, the target is going to fall off of it, potentially to his/her death. It's also just as if I physically pushed or pulled someone into an obstacle which happened to be in the way. It's not the push or pull that does the damage . It's the obstacle. Regardless, the Bind upgrade reflects Force Push and Force Pull much more accurately, and is certainly intended to cover those abilities because that's exactly what it does. It pushes or pulls a target one range band. Move picks up a target and throws it (if using the hurl upgrade), or simply levitates it. That does not mean that Move can't be used to similar effect, but the Bind upgrade was designed specifically to cover Force Push and Force Pull in Force and Destiny . AoR and EotE lack the Bind power, and thus Move was used as a substitute .

The timing of Sam's comment is irrelevant. Bind is not force move/push. I am not sure why this is being debated.

Perhaps this is a better way to resolve the question though:

RAW, how much damage does a target take when Bind is used to push/pull them into an immovable obstacle? What is the difficulty of the skill check to perform this action? Please cite rule wording and page number in your answer.

No, the timing of his comment is not irrelevant. It is very relevant. Bind as a power did not exist at the time he made that comment, mush less its upgrades. Force and Destiny did not exist yet. Both Age of Rebellion and Edge of the Empire had very limited Force powers; only four or five in total, if memory serves. As for the damage , it would be whatever colliding with such an object would be of physically pushed into it . Use Falling damage or the Collision rules if you have to. The damage does not come from the use of the power. It comes from collision with an object. Collision with objects(at least with vehicles) is covered in the Collision rules, with people, it's falling . In the case of the guards, that being pushed into the wall is equivalent to a short range fall (10 Strain), which for Minions or Rivals would be 10 Wounds. Falling damage is found in table 6-9 on page 221 of F&D.

It did not exist. But also no where has anyone said they changed their mind on what force push is. So with a lack of evidence saying they changed their mind I have to assume they did not. So move is still force push.

I disagree. Move can be used to simulate some of the aspects of Force Push, but the Bind Upgrade is specifically designed to fill that role exactly, and also specifically emulates what we see on screen as well. The Bind upgrade forcefully pushes or pulls people closer to or farther away from the Force user. That is exactly what Force Push and Force Pull does. Force Push pushes targets away from the Force user. Force Pull pulls people towards the Force user. Those abilities are specifically covered by the Bind power upgrade to push or pull a target one range band. Thus, the Bind Upgrade is Force Push and Force Pull. Move is general telekinesis.

No, the timing of his comment is not irrelevant. It is very relevant. Bind as a power did not exist at the time he made that comment, mush less its upgrades. Force and Destiny did not exist yet. Both Age of Rebellion and Edge of the Empire had very limited Force powers; only four or five in total, if memory serves. As for the damage , it would be whatever colliding with such an object would be of physically pushed into it . Use Falling damage or the Collision rules if you have to. The damage does not come from the use of the power. It comes from collision with an object. Collision with objects(at least with vehicles) is covered in the Collision rules, with people, it's falling . In the case of the guards, that being pushed into the wall is equivalent to a short range fall (10 Strain), which for Minions or Rivals would be 10 Wounds. Falling damage is found in table 6-9 on page 221 of F&D.

Wow... I mean just... wow. I think your Force Leap (to conclusions) just went out to planetary scale range there.

So what you are saying is the developers actually intended:

1.) The control talent in the Bind tree was written to represent Force Push/Pull but the Hurl control talent in the Move Power was not, AND ...

2.) that damage from said upgrade is calculated by first looking in the rules for COLLISIONS ... (e.g. in the vehicle combat rules, not personal combat rules) AND...

3.) you must then extrapolate that critical hit (which can only be caused to vehicles btw) be converted to personal scale damage BY...

4.) considering it a FALL (even though the the target didn't actually fall), and this fall should be short range, because that is how close the obstacle was? Or would you further rule that if the target was at Long range, and pushed to Extreme range and hit a rock along the way they are incapacitated and take a +75 critical injury?

Do I have this correct? And do I further have it correct that you find, after making all of these leaps in logic, it is still more plausible the Developers intended the Bind control upgrade to be Force Push/Pull, despite the Move power having a control upgrade that SPECIFICALLY calls out the action required, the attack roll needed, and the damage done by said upgrade?

Oh, and finally... I am pretty sure the Bind Power was in fact published at the time of Sam's response, as the F&D Beta was released in September of 2014.

Um, FaD was in BETA for 12 months prior to release... it had been in development for over 12 months prior to that. So although Sam was unable to comment on unannounced material Bind was already in concept stage.

On the question of "how much damage does Bind cause when you push a target into an adjacent object?"

The answer is given IN THE MOVE POWER!

Bind move is Kylo Ren transporting an unconscious Rey into his ship at Maz's Castle

Move is every single instance of knocking over a target to make them unconscious.

But both Force Powers are capable of replicating each other in different ways. The system is designed so a PC can do a variety of things with a single power without having to invest in another... WTF is this conversation anyway.

No, Move is what he used to carry the unconscious Rey. He was telekinetically carrying her. That is what Move does. Bind is what he was using to hold her still and keep her from shooting at him. It is also what he used later to push her into the tree several meters behind her.

Bind may have been in the concept stage at the time Sam Stewart made his comment, but it was likely not fully fleshed out and tested yet. Thus, at the time, Move was still the go-to power to cover those abilities at the time. That and the fact that Bind and the other powers introduced in F&D were still top secret. Players needed something to use, so Move was the closest thing they had at the time.

The shots in the movies you mention were examples of the Force Push/Pull upgrade for Bind.

Except that's not even remotely how Bind operates.

I suggest you go re-read the text on the Control Upgrade, because all it does is move the target one range band further or closer away from you. There's ZERO caveat in Bind for dealing damage by bashing the target into something, be it a wall or other object. In fact, the only way Bind deals any straight damage is if you use dark side pips to generate your Force Points. The only other method it has to inflict damage is a Control Upgrade that forces the target to suffer strain equal to the Force user's Willpower but only if the target takes an action.

Plus there's a long-standing dev answer from Sam Stewart that replicating Force Push/Pull is the domain of the Move power. I'd call that a pretty definitive nail in the coffin of the moronic notion that Move was never meant to be used on living and/or sentient beings.

That response by Sam Stewart was written well before F&D came out and the Bind Power, with the its push/Pull upgrade, was introduced . And hitting a wall or other object that happens to be between your target and the distance he's being pushed or pulled doesn't need to be in the power's description since it is incidental . It's not a direct part of the power. It's just as using that same upgrade to push a target back one range band would result in him flying off of a cliff that happens to be just within that distance. In the case of the Emperor's guards, they got knocked out, because they hit the wall, not because of the Force power itself. The Force power Yoda used simply pushed them backwards . That is what the Bind upgrade does. If you use the Bind upgrade to push or pull a person one range band, and there is an obstacle in the way, it's going to hurt. If you do it and there happens to be a cliff in the path, the target is going to fall off of it, potentially to his/her death. It's also just as if I physically pushed or pulled someone into an obstacle which happened to be in the way. It's not the push or pull that does the damage . It's the obstacle. Regardless, the Bind upgrade reflects Force Push and Force Pull much more accurately, and is certainly intended to cover those abilities because that's exactly what it does. It pushes or pulls a target one range band. Move picks up a target and throws it (if using the hurl upgrade), or simply levitates it. That does not mean that Move can't be used to similar effect, but the Bind upgrade was designed specifically to cover Force Push and Force Pull in Force and Destiny . AoR and EotE lack the Bind power, and thus Move was used as a substitute .

The timing of Sam's comment is irrelevant. Bind is not force move/push. I am not sure why this is being debated.

Perhaps this is a better way to resolve the question though:

RAW, how much damage does a target take when Bind is used to push/pull them into an immovable obstacle? What is the difficulty of the skill check to perform this action? Please cite rule wording and page number in your answer.

No, the timing of his comment is not irrelevant. It is very relevant. Bind as a power did not exist at the time he made that comment, mush less its upgrades. Force and Destiny did not exist yet. Both Age of Rebellion and Edge of the Empire had very limited Force powers; only four or five in total, if memory serves. As for the damage , it would be whatever colliding with such an object would be of physically pushed into it . Use Falling damage or the Collision rules if you have to. The damage does not come from the use of the power. It comes from collision with an object. Collision with objects(at least with vehicles) is covered in the Collision rules, with people, it's falling . In the case of the guards, that being pushed into the wall is equivalent to a short range fall (10 Strain), which for Minions or Rivals would be 10 Wounds. Falling damage is found in table 6-9 on page 221 of F&D.

It did not exist. But also no where has anyone said they changed their mind on what force push is. So with a lack of evidence saying they changed their mind I have to assume they did not. So move is still force push.

I disagree. Move can be used to simulate some of the aspects of Force Push, but the Bind Upgrade is specifically designed to fill that role exactly, and also specifically emulates what we see on screen as well. The Bind upgrade forcefully pushes or pulls people closer to or farther away from the Force user. That is exactly what Force Push and Force Pull does. Force Push pushes targets away from the Force user. Force Pull pulls people towards the Force user. Those abilities are specifically covered by the Bind power upgrade to push or pull a target one range band. Thus, the Bind Upgrade is Force Push and Force Pull. Move is general telekinesis.

Move does the exact same thing and the devs say it is force push. What part of the devs tell us force push is move and have never said Bind is force push do you nto understand?. They say move. I am sorry your claim does not hold water given that I have yet to see any any evidence to back up your claim. Show me the devs saying force push is Bind otherwise the devs say move is force push so it is move.

Read the description of Bind's Upgrade. It Pushes or pulls a target closer to or farther from the Force user, just as Force Push and Force Pull does. The Move hurl upgrade, picks up and hurls objects in any direction the user chooses. It doesn't push them or pull them. It picks them up and throws them. That is the difference. The Bind upgrade actually pushes and pulls the target, the Move power's hurl upgrade picks them up and throws them. Similar effects, but different means. The very fact that Sam Stewart couldn't reveal Bind when he made that original post, which was specifically dealing with Edge of the Empire , which, as I said, only had a few Force powers, given its focus on other aspects of the universe.also supports , rather than detracts from this view. In F&D, Force Powers became quite a bit more specialized, with less "overlap". In fact, it seems as if they've been deliberately trying to eliminate as much overlap as possible. Thus, It is clear to me, based upon how the upgrade in question is designed, that it is intended to replace Move as the "stand in" for Force Push and Force Pull.

No, the timing of his comment is not irrelevant. It is very relevant. Bind as a power did not exist at the time he made that comment, mush less its upgrades. Force and Destiny did not exist yet. Both Age of Rebellion and Edge of the Empire had very limited Force powers; only four or five in total, if memory serves. As for the damage , it would be whatever colliding with such an object would be of physically pushed into it . Use Falling damage or the Collision rules if you have to. The damage does not come from the use of the power. It comes from collision with an object. Collision with objects(at least with vehicles) is covered in the Collision rules, with people, it's falling . In the case of the guards, that being pushed into the wall is equivalent to a short range fall (10 Strain), which for Minions or Rivals would be 10 Wounds. Falling damage is found in table 6-9 on page 221 of F&D.

Wow... I mean just... wow. I think your Force Leap (to conclusions) just went out to planetary scale range there.

So what you are saying is the developers actually intended:

1.) The control talent in the Bind tree was written to represent Force Push/Pull but the Hurl control talent in the Move Power was not, AND ...

2.) that damage from said upgrade is calculated by first looking in the rules for COLLISIONS ... (e.g. in the vehicle combat rules, not personal combat rules) AND...

3.) you must then extrapolate that critical hit (which can only be caused to vehicles btw) be converted to personal scale damage BY...

4.) considering it a FALL (even though the the target didn't actually fall), and this fall should be short range, because that is how close the obstacle was? Or would you further rule that if the target was at Long range, and pushed to Extreme range and hit a rock along the way they are incapacitated and take a +75 critical injury?

Do I have this correct? And do I further have it correct that you find, after making all of these leaps in logic, it is still more plausible the Developers intended the Bind control upgrade to be Force Push/Pull, despite the Move power having a control upgrade that SPECIFICALLY calls out the action required, the attack roll needed, and the damage done by said upgrade?

Oh, and finally... I am pretty sure the Bind Power was in fact published at the time of Sam's response, as the F&D Beta was released in September of 2014.

No, you don't have it fully correct. Falling damage table is simply the closest thing we have for collision damage regarding living targets and not vehicles. The Collision rules side bar in F&D only covers vehicles. That's why I said OR, not AND. As for your question regarding a target at long range being pushed to extreme range,The damage needs to be calculated by what range he was pushed from his own current position, not the user's. The target is only moving one range band, so, he's be moving only to within short or possibly medium range from his own current position, even if that is extreme range from the Force user's position. But, once again, that's only presuming he actually collided with an obstacle, not simply as a result of being pushed or pulled.