Honestly, I think if your players are more interested in playing the most mechanically efficient character, this may not be the system for them.

True, but anyone rules-lawyer-ing in a narrative game... This may not be the system for them either...

And they're easier to control than Autofire Guy. With Autofire Guy, you need to take his gun away. Drop-People Guy's greatest enemy is ceilings.

Curse you, agoraphobia! Curse youuuuuuuuuuuuu!

Agoraphobia would be certainly a problem. But so would a 100 credit grav-chute. Curse you red bull! Curse you!

Now that I am mentioning it, I don't think that you would even cause inconvenience to anyone in our current group with this takic. Our pilot and astromech are flying most of the time anyway, either with vehicles, jump boots or jetpacks. The force wielder would not only be a tough nut to crack on the discipline roll, but counter with his own force move. And the beat rider? Tough luck, but Varactyl are gliders, this is a "thank you for the lift" in the worst case and a survival check to have the mount catch his owner mid-air at best.

Sure, that's just us. But look at the currently most famous star wars RPG group. The rebels crew: The jedi's are just fine, the astromech has an internalized jetpack, the demolitionist has a jetpack, hera seems to live in her cockpit usually and zeb ... well someone has to catch zeb "not on purpose".

And have I mentioned that anti-grav chutes are not really rare either, 450 credits is a cheap thing for such an convenient life saver

Well, if you look at Rebels, squads of Stormtroopers are expected to miss, cadets can go through crazy video game platforming training and fall during it with no ill effects, and mechanical spinning lightsabers can be used to generate lift like a Sith helicopter...

If you look at FFG Star Wars, it's easy for a squad of Stormtroopers to shoot heroes, falling deals tons of damage, and let's just ignore that last bit.

There are a lot of rules decisions in the game that don't necessarily lend themselves to reproducing the on screen action in the movies or TV shows. Some of them produce things that can look kind of weird but still mostly work. OTOH, if some people are finding Move and such being extremely dangerous due to serious falling damage, maybe there's something to the idea that falling damage is set too high which then rewards strategies that can manufacture it. It certainly doesn't seem in Rebels like short falls are roughly equivalent to getting shot by heavy blasters (plus strain damage too).

Question regarding Move. Didn't want to start a new topic about it. With the idea of move being able to affect living targets, including yourself, wouldn't the move power effectively negate the reason to buy the leap upgrades for Enhance since you can only go so far with Enhance but with move you can send yourself up to extreme range?

I mean, I've seen the dev's responds which is basically "we didn't account for this but here's these tacked on ideas of how to restrict your player from simply just using move to go wherever they please as fast as they please".

I just didn't know if there was actually anything in the book itself that prevented such a thing.

the tricky part is the upgrades to Leap which allows it to be a Manoeuvre. Move simply can't do that.

So with the knowledge others will have different options, here is A solution.

Move (Levitate): you need to activate Basic, Strength, and at least 1 Range upgrade to do this "Levitation". I'm in the camp of everything you do in your turn happens in that round, so for a minimum of 3 Force Points and an Action you can get from where you are to Extreme range. It's 25xp (requires 5 Force Points) to 45xp (requires 3 Force Points). Then you have up to 2 manoeuvres to use, a handy way of escaping, or a quick Stimpack to a friend in need. Also awesome if you can somehow throw down an extra Force Point to activate Magnitude and take your whole party with you!

Leap: you need to spend 2 Force Pips, which allows you to move to Medium. A second activation (as your second Manoeuvre) allows you to reach a point that was half way through Medium range to your starting position. Then you have an Action still to spend, which can get you to Long from your starting position if you want. It costs 50xp for this full ability, anything less and your only able to Leap once per turn. This is a much more aggressive option, with the ability to perform an Action in the same round, it allows for attacking or other Force Powers which would have been out of range previously. Looking at it in the reverse view your able to get from Long to Medium of a target and still have an Action, or to Short with your full turn.

So they are different options, the Leap one suits a lower Force Rating although requires more XP investment for less versatility of the actual power. So it really depends on what your wanting to achieve. I like the Leap option personally because rolling 2 Light Side (or Dark Side ) points is much easier for a Force Rating 2 character, thus reducing the Strain and Destin Point cost (I don't usually care how much Conflict my characters gain, swings and roundabouts... and the Emperor chuckles)

Question regarding Move. Didn't want to start a new topic about it. With the idea of move being able to affect living targets, including yourself, wouldn't the move power effectively negate the reason to buy the leap upgrades for Enhance since you can only go so far with Enhance but with move you can send yourself up to extreme range?

I mean, I've seen the dev's responds which is basically "we didn't account for this but here's these tacked on ideas of how to restrict your player from simply just using move to go wherever they please as fast as they please".

I just didn't know if there was actually anything in the book itself that prevented such a thing.

Sure you can 'move' yourself out to extreme range, but keep in mind what the introduction to the Move power says in the 2nd paragraph: "When moving items, the default speed is slow and deliberate, not fast enough to inflict injury or accurate enough to allow for fine manipulation." I would rule using the move basic power to move yourself out to extreme range would be no faster than simply using your maneuvers to move yourself there. In fact, it would probably be slower, and it would require committing force dice per the side bar on page 299.

I suppose you could 'hurl' yourself using the control talent upgrade to make the trip faster, but this would of course subject you to the potential of a lot of damage, with no guarantee of landing on your feet at the end of the journey.

Question regarding Move. Didn't want to start a new topic about it. With the idea of move being able to affect living targets, including yourself, wouldn't the move power effectively negate the reason to buy the leap upgrades for Enhance since you can only go so far with Enhance but with move you can send yourself up to extreme range?

I mean, I've seen the dev's responds which is basically "we didn't account for this but here's these tacked on ideas of how to restrict your player from simply just using move to go wherever they please as fast as they please".

I just didn't know if there was actually anything in the book itself that prevented such a thing.

Sure you can 'move' yourself out to extreme range, but keep in mind what the introduction to the Move power says in the 2nd paragraph: "When moving items, the default speed is slow and deliberate, not fast enough to inflict injury or accurate enough to allow for fine manipulation." I would rule using the move basic power to move yourself out to extreme range would be no faster than simply using your maneuvers to move yourself there. In fact, it would probably be slower, and it would require committing force dice per the side bar on page 299.

I suppose you could 'hurl' yourself using the control talent upgrade to make the trip faster, but this would of course subject you to the potential of a lot of damage, with no guarantee of landing on your feet at the end of the journey.

I still don't understand this reasoning. Sure physics is weird, but tims and space are both fluid. Every Action in this game is intended to be resolved in a single round. Even the duration sidebar says only to start committing dice and suffering strain when the character is attempting to deliberately keep something suspended, and that during structured play the normal use of the power is fully resolved. I mean any vehicle or mount can cover the same distance without even breaking a sweat, and twice the distance if they try, even slow plodding walkers.

Edit: of course every group is different, and deciding boundaries is a big part of actually playing together for fun. Each to their own.

Question regarding Move. Didn't want to start a new topic about it. With the idea of move being able to affect living targets, including yourself, wouldn't the move power effectively negate the reason to buy the leap upgrades for Enhance since you can only go so far with Enhance but with move you can send yourself up to extreme range?

I mean, I've seen the dev's responds which is basically "we didn't account for this but here's these tacked on ideas of how to restrict your player from simply just using move to go wherever they please as fast as they please".

I just didn't know if there was actually anything in the book itself that prevented such a thing.

Sure you can 'move' yourself out to extreme range, but keep in mind what the introduction to the Move power says in the 2nd paragraph: "When moving items, the default speed is slow and deliberate, not fast enough to inflict injury or accurate enough to allow for fine manipulation." I would rule using the move basic power to move yourself out to extreme range would be no faster than simply using your maneuvers to move yourself there. In fact, it would probably be slower, and it would require committing force dice per the side bar on page 299.

I suppose you could 'hurl' yourself using the control talent upgrade to make the trip faster, but this would of course subject you to the potential of a lot of damage, with no guarantee of landing on your feet at the end of the journey.

I still don't understand this reasoning. Sure physics is weird, but tims and space are both fluid. Every Action in this game is intended to be resolved in a single round. Even the duration sidebar says only to start committing dice and suffering strain when the character is attempting to deliberately keep something suspended, and that during structured play the normal use of the power is fully resolved. I mean any vehicle or mount can cover the same distance without even breaking a sweat, and twice the distance if they try, even slow plodding walkers.

Edit: of course every group is different, and deciding boundaries is a big part of actually playing together for fun. Each to their own.

What it comes down to is the underlying philosophy of the structured time system in this game, and looking at RAI.

The action economy is, simply stated, one Action, two Maneuvers. Yes I know there is a little more nuance here for downgrading an action, spending strain for the 2nd action, and minions being limited.

There are exceptions to this philosophy but the exceptions are typically expensive talents in the 4th or 5th row of a spec tree, or they are signature abilities which are even more expensive. Allowing the Move power to subvert this action economy through the expenditure of a modest amount of experience is contrary to the RAI of the structured game system. That is, to move from Extreme range to Engaged range requires six maneuvers (if I counted it right). Allowing this movement to take place in one round violates RAI.

Furthermore, if we look at the Enhance Power, there is only one Range increase to Force Leap, and this cannot be activated more than once per round, capping its range to medium. Why would they cap this power to medium, yet allow the Basic Move Power to move a character from engaged range to extreme range (or vice versa) in one round? Again, that breaks the action economy philosophy of the system, one that is very clearly spelled out in the rules.

Finally, to me the resolution does occur in one round: the first round you activate the power, you make the check. After that, no more checks need to be made, just possibly the commitment of Force Dice to maintain the power per the sidebar. To me its no different than activating any other power and using a Duration talent upgrade on this power.

Incidentally, not to start yet another thread on the "broken-ness' of autofire and/or linked, but its one of the main issues I have with these qualities; that is, they break the action economy. Of course after seeing Rogue One, I have a new appreciation for how effective a repeating blaster rifle is.

Any character in a vehicle can go from beyond extreme to short range, dismount, then engage a target in a single turn.

Edit: using the 5-15xp Let's Ride talent the Pilot can even use an Action afterwards, a passenger gets and Action and a Manoeuvre

Using Move to do what Enhance is for is like using Move for what Bind is for. They're different powers for a reason and reasonable players will get that.

Using Move to do what Enhance is for is like using Move for what Bind is for. They're different powers for a reason and reasonable players will get that.

Certainly. I merely asked if there was anything RAW that stops it from happening. There seems to only be suggestions in the sidebar as indicated by the Developer response. It would make sense that it is deliberately slow, due to you essentially needing to chuck a person at high speeds to get them there in 1 turn according to most (including the developers).

I might consider it possible but the target wouldn't arrive until the end of the round or maybe beginning of the player's next turn, potentially allowing for an adversary to hit the player and make them lose concentration. Which would make it pretty dangerous if you're moving yourself.

Any character in a vehicle can go from beyond extreme to short range, dismount, then engage a target in a single turn.

Edit: using the 5-15xp Let's Ride talent the Pilot can even use an Action afterwards, a passenger gets and Action and a Manoeuvre

Don't mounts use the rules as if they are a vehicle? If so, wouldn't that mean they have to use a 'Fly/Drive' maneuver to drop their speed to 0 before they could dismount? That would require extra maneuvers.

Also, mounts/'vehicles add an additional complexity that often requires an action to make a piloting skill check due to terrain features. So I would not consider this to be analogous to using the Move power to go from Extreme to Engaged in one round.

Any character in a vehicle can go from beyond extreme to short range, dismount, then engage a target in a single turn.

Edit: using the 5-15xp Let's Ride talent the Pilot can even use an Action afterwards, a passenger gets and Action and a Manoeuvre

Uhm, moving to one point in short (planetary) takes one maneuver at speed 1 and is impossible at speed 0, decelerating takes one and dismount takes one. Engaging takes another one. And if your vehicle was not in motion before you need another one to speed up first. So no, not in one turn.

Let's ride can reduce this by one. You could jump out of a moving speeder, but that means that speeder might be a small fireball at the end of the turn, so I would advise against it. ^-^

What you can do is start up your jetpack (depending on the GM you might need Let's ride), go to speed one, go to extreme range and start shooting with your sniper rifle from extreme range at that jedi who just jumped besides you and tried to engage you. 2 Maneuvers and one action used. But in that case you do not stop at a point, but still going rather fast around that general area, maybe circling around or whatever. So definitely not engaging something nor stopping and getting back to the ground.

edit: And those piloting checks for terrain seem to be out of turn checks for the most part. Same for when you are doing a chase. They don't fit always into the normal structured time round. Terrain checks are not needed to be done every round either.

I could see you being able to jump off a mount/vehicle while it's still at speed 1 but it feels like it's a choice that's stupid enough to warrant an athletics/coordination check to reduce any possible damage... it's like jumping out of a fast moving car.

edit: And those piloting checks for terrain seem to be out of turn checks for the most part. Same for when you are doing a chase. They don't fit always into the normal structured time round. Terrain checks are not needed to be done every round either.

I would agree, the piloting checks and when they take place are rather nebulous. In one Order 66 podcast, Sam suggested piloting checks for terrain does require an action, but it would only require it the first turn the pilot tried to move into the hazardous terrain. All future movement would be using maneuvers (unless of course the piloting check on the first round failed).

Chases would fall into a similar category of being nebulous, and outside the normal framework of a round. The key point about chases is the 'chaser' and 'chasee' cannot change the relative distance between each other unless they win the check for the round.

Starting engaged with a small vehicle or better yet a mount:

Free Manoeuvre: Lets ride

Manoeuvre 1: accelerate

Manoeuvre 2: fly/drive from extreme to short

Action: Shoot, Hawk Bat(rather cinematic), Draw Closer, Saber Throw, thrown weapon, any Force Power

Starting mounted and at speed 1:

Manoeuvre 1: fly/drive to short from extreme

Manoeuvre 2: decelerate (because we don't want a cinematic Leap from a moving vehicle)

Free Manoeuvre: Lets ride

Action: whatever you want

Passenger in a vehicle (my original intended example, this is analogous to a Force User using Move to pick up an ally and relocate them to Extreme range):

The pilot has their turn first thanks to the flexibility of initiative, moving the vehicle to Short range of the destination and stoping.

Manoeuvre 1: dismount

Manoeuvre 2: engage

Action: pummel the target

They are all things that begging characters can do, all in a single round. Again I don't know why all the hate on Move. It's not like we see most of what the Force Powers in this system can do on screen. The majority have a foundation there which has been expanded upon through looking at Legends and also going to logical conclusions.

Starting engaged with a small vehicle or better yet a mount:

Free Manoeuvre: Lets ride

Manoeuvre 1: accelerate

Manoeuvre 2: fly/drive from extreme to short

Action: Shoot, Hawk Bat(rather cinematic), Draw Closer, Saber Throw, thrown weapon, any Force Power

Starting mounted and at speed 1:

Manoeuvre 1: fly/drive to short from extreme

Manoeuvre 2: decelerate (because we don't want a cinematic Leap from a moving vehicle)

Free Manoeuvre: Lets ride

Action: whatever you want

Passenger in a vehicle (my original intended example, this is analogous to a Force User using Move to pick up an ally and relocate them to Extreme range):

The pilot has their turn first thanks to the flexibility of initiative, moving the vehicle to Short range of the destination and stoping.

Manoeuvre 1: dismount

Manoeuvre 2: engage

Action: pummel the target

They are all things that begging characters can do, all in a single round. Again I don't know why all the hate on Move. It's not like we see most of what the Force Powers in this system can do on screen. The majority have a foundation there which has been expanded upon through looking at Legends and also going to logical conclusions.

Its not hate at all, its game balance. I think most forum members here would agree, Force Move is a very useful and powerful tool, which is pretty easy to abuse if one is not careful. I won't put it in the same category as autofire, but this power does get is fair share of forum traffic when it comes to questions about "is this too powerful?"

I can't think of any canonical sources that we've seen where a character is 'Force Moving' or 'Force Leaping' out to extreme range. We see plenty of acrobatic leaps and such, but nothing that would suggest to me extreme range in one round.

Also, what I would point out here is in every example use used vehicles or mounts. There are additional considerations with vehicles/mounts in combat that can complicate things, including a requirement to make piloting checks as an action to actually be able to move your vehicle. It is completely game specific and situation specific, but vehicles fall in to a different category within the action economy of the game.

Starting engaged with a small vehicle or better yet a mount:

Free Manoeuvre: Lets ride

Manoeuvre 1: accelerate

Manoeuvre 2: fly/drive from extreme to short

Action: Shoot, Hawk Bat(rather cinematic), Draw Closer, Saber Throw, thrown weapon, any Force Power

Starting mounted and at speed 1:

Manoeuvre 1: fly/drive to short from extreme

Manoeuvre 2: decelerate (because we don't want a cinematic Leap from a moving vehicle)

Free Manoeuvre: Lets ride

Action: whatever you want

Passenger in a vehicle (my original intended example, this is analogous to a Force User using Move to pick up an ally and relocate them to Extreme range):

The pilot has their turn first thanks to the flexibility of initiative, moving the vehicle to Short range of the destination and stoping.

Manoeuvre 1: dismount

Manoeuvre 2: engage

Action: pummel the target

They are all things that begging characters can do, all in a single round. Again I don't know why all the hate on Move. It's not like we see most of what the Force Powers in this system can do on screen. The majority have a foundation there which has been expanded upon through looking at Legends and also going to logical conclusions.

Its not hate at all, its game balance. I think most forum members here would agree, Force Move is a very useful and powerful tool, which is pretty easy to abuse if one is not careful. I won't put it in the same category as autofire, but this power does get is fair share of forum traffic when it comes to questions about "is this too powerful?"

I can't think of any canonical sources that we've seen where a character is 'Force Moving' or 'Force Leaping' out to extreme range. We see plenty of acrobatic leaps and such, but nothing that would suggest to me extreme range in one round.

Also, what I would point out here is in every example use used vehicles or mounts. There are additional considerations with vehicles/mounts in combat that can complicate things, including a requirement to make piloting checks as an action to actually be able to move your vehicle. It is completely game specific and situation specific, but vehicles fall in to a different category within the action economy of the game.

I definitely won't argue against that. Move is definitely a powerful FP, with lots of investment it can become devastating. But there is always more than one way to skin a cat, that was the point of my post.

I definitely won't argue against that. Move is definitely a powerful FP, with lots of investment it can become devastating. But there is always more than one way to skin a cat, that was the point of my post.

I agree with you here, there are good and interesting ways to move quickly in personal combat. These options typically include a party using good tactics and working together, which in my view is (usually) great thing.

Here's a question, just to be sure I understand it correctly.

The Move power upgrade Hurl, let's say using it to pick up and throw a player character, would, per the power's text, be a 1 difficulty discipline check.

The rules state that when using the force against player characters and named rivals/nemeses, you roll against their discipline.

So which one would take precedence? Does it all of a sudden become a lot tougher to toss a player/rival/nemesis compared to a minion or is it still a 1 purple check based on their silhouette?

It would be against their discipline

Any character in a vehicle can go from beyond extreme to short range, dismount, then engage a target in a single turn.

Edit: using the 5-15xp Let's Ride talent the Pilot can even use an Action afterwards, a passenger gets and Action and a Manoeuvre

The vehicle move = 1 maneuver , will get you to short range

Dismount = 1 maneuver

Engaging your target = 1 maneuver

So you could only engage your target if you had the explorer signature ability or lets ride (or some other 2 maneuver breaking ability like quick movement.)

Any character in a vehicle can go from beyond extreme to short range, dismount, then engage a target in a single turn.

Edit: using the 5-15xp Let's Ride talent the Pilot can even use an Action afterwards, a passenger gets and Action and a Manoeuvre

Actually that wouldn't be possible.

The vehicle move = 1 maneuver , will get you to short range

Dismount = 1 maneuver

Engaging your target = 1 maneuver

So you could only engage your target if you had the explorer signature ability or lets ride (or some other 2 maneuver breaking ability like quick movement.)

Here's a question, just to be sure I understand it correctly.

The Move power upgrade Hurl, let's say using it to pick up and throw a player character, would, per the power's text, be a 1 difficulty discipline check.

The rules state that when using the force against player characters and named rivals/nemeses, you roll against their discipline.

So which one would take precedence? Does it all of a sudden become a lot tougher to toss a player/rival/nemesis compared to a minion or is it still a 1 purple check based on their silhouette?

If you're picking up a PC, then it would be an opposed Discipline check, with the PC using whichever skill the GM feels is most appropriate. Generally that'd be Discipline, but some GMs would allow other skills such as Athletics, as the sidebar does cite that other skills can be used to resist Force powers, so long as it makes sense in context.

The default difficulty calculation for hurling objects with Move (Difficulty = target's Silhouette) is employed when the target can't resist, such as physical objects or unimportant characters (minions and most rivals) and is part of the ranged combat check that you're making to fling them into the second target.

I go with the rule that Move cannot be used on biological things, because that's what bind is for. Especially since bind literally has the control level to move them range bands.

I go with the rule that Move cannot be used on biological things, because that's what bind is for. Especially since bind literally has the control level to move them range bands.

Except that's not the rules. The rules on Move are fully intended to work on biological beings, unless you're an overly literal jack@$$ of a GM that gets their jollies from screwing over their players as opposed to actually running an entertaining game.

By your unduly strict interpretation of the word "object," it's now impossible for Luke to have Threepio float around the Endor village as we see in RotJ, since in the context of the rules a droid is not an "object" but is instead considered a character as it's able to move and act of it's own accord. We also see Move being used constantly in the prequels to hurl battle droids and Geonosians (especially Anakin in AotC in the droid factory sequence) alike. Heck, we see Yoda use Move to take out two of Sidious' guards just before their duel in RotS, where he's not "binding" them, restricting their movement, or choking them; he just flat out slams them against the wall and they collapse.

Bind's ability to move the target is based upon what we see Count Dooku do to Obi-Wan in their rematch in RotS, where he Force chokes Obi-Wan and then flings him away (Bind) before bringing a section of railing down on the Jedi Master (Move used as a Maneuver via Force is My Ally talent). And it's an ability that's not cheap to get, making it a supplementary effect of the Bind power.