Last night at Destiny, someone dropped 6 damage on a 1-hit-point Finn with Second Chance to overkill him by 5 (a 2 die with two +2 dice). We couldn't figure out if all the damage stuck, making Finn come back to life just in time to die again, or if excess damage was ignored, causing Finn to come back at 5 life.

The reason we can't figure this out is that the rules reference says "Any excess damage dealt to a character from a source that defeats the character is ignored." Fine, then Finn comes back at 5 health. But then the next sentence says "A player can deal more damage to a character than they have health..." which sounds like you can do some overkill to pre-empt the Second Chance healing.

Which is it?

I would say Finn is toast. As you pointed out, you can deal more damage to a character than they have health. Finn would be sitting at 15 damage compared to his 10 health. Second Chance would trigger before Finn is defeated and Finn would heal 5 health. Finn would still have 10 damage and would be defeated.

I disagree. Since anything in excess is ignored, he goes to zero health then back to five.

I read the ability to deal excess damage as meaning that you can use three damage to kill a character with one remaining health rather than needing to have exactly one damage.

Health can't go negative. He stops at 0, then Second Chance heals back to 5.

It would be tricky to dig up the link, but Lukas confirmed this on one of the Facebook groups.

Per RRG, page 15:

Second Chance reads Before attached character would be defeated, instead heal 5 damage from it and discard this upgrade from play. The character is never defeated - there is a passive replacement effect in which they are healed instead (Second Chance is specifically cited under 'Replacement Effects', stating that the character is not defeated).

Since you can deal more damage to a character than they have health, but the damage is not cut off because the character is never defeated, I'd think any excess damage should carry over.

Since you can deal more damage to a character than they have health, but the damage is not cut off because the character is never defeated, I'd think any excess damage should carry over.

You can't deal more damage than it takes to defeat them. Look at the quoted rule bit above: excess damage...is ignored .

Also, the character IS defeated. They have to be defeated in order to trigger Second Chance, which then replaces the defeat. So the damage is applied, the character is reduced to 0, any excess damage vanishes, the character is defeated, Second Chance triggers and instead of defeat they heal 5.

You can't deal more damage than it takes to defeat them. Look at the quoted rule bit above: excess damage...is ignored .

Also, the character IS defeated. They have to be defeated in order to trigger Second Chance, which then replaces the defeat. So the damage is applied, the character is reduced to 0, any excess damage vanishes, the character is defeated, Second Chance triggers and instead of defeat they heal 5.

I agree with Abyss, the excess damage can't be ignored because the character was never defeated, the character was healed 5 damage instead of being defeated so the damage would still go through. The rules specifically say that the character is never considered to be defeated .

The rules state:

Second Chance (r137) says “Before attached character would be defeated, instead heal 5 damage from it and discard this upgrade.” Because this prevents the character from being defeated, the character is never considered to have been defeated.

Reducing health to zero would defeat the character. A character can't go past zero health. They are defeated. Except that before the actual defeat they are healed for five. I wouldn't say the card is super clear, but going to the letter of the rules and card text, I don't see how it could be interpreted that the five healing would be subject to overkill, especially as there is no such thing in the game (ignored past zero)

Technically the character would never be defeated with second chance on it because Before ability resolves first.

Finn has 9 damage on him. When resolving dice for 6 damage, that would defeat him so you use 2nd chance and heal 5 damage from him. He would now have 4 damage on him, Then you add the 6 damage bringing him up to 10, which would then defeat him.

Before abilities, page 16

If, during the course of a game, a before ability meets its trigger condition, immediately resolve the before ability before continuing to resolve the rest of the effect. In this way, before abilities can interrupt the fow of the game.

Example: One with the Force (r42) says “Before attached character is defeated, this card becomes a support for the rest of the game.” The trigger condition is “attached character is defeated,” and the timing word “before” tells you to resolve the rest of the effect before the trigger condition resolves.

Technically the character would never be defeated with second chance on it because Before ability resolves first.

Finn has 9 damage on him. When resolving dice for 6 damage, that would defeat him so you use 2nd chance and heal 5 damage from him. He would now have 4 damage on him, Then you add the 6 damage bringing him up to 10, which would then defeat him.

Before abilities, page 16

If, during the course of a game, a before ability meets its trigger condition, immediately resolve the before ability before continuing to resolve the rest of the effect. In this way, before abilities can interrupt the fow of the game.

Example: One with the Force (r42) says “Before attached character is defeated, this card becomes a support for the rest of the game.” The trigger condition is “attached character is defeated,” and the timing word “before” tells you to resolve the rest of the effect before the trigger condition resolves.

But the damage was already dealt... To force the condition. Why do you think the extra damage is saved?

I'm going to air with the side that says the damage would count until an FFG ruling against it would take place.

From what is mentioned, Second Chance kicks in before the character is defeated as a Replacement effect which means the character is never actually defeated and therefore damage is still going to need to resolve. The way I see it, as a character would take damage with 1 Health remaining, instead of becoming defeated they gain 5 health, at which point you would keep counting the damage.

If what is being posted here about the wording is accurate, then I think this is the way it should be played. If you are saying the character is defeated, then technically you would be required to remove all dice and upgrades from the character, before bringing the character back in play with 5 health...but to do that would be to assume that you should be adding extra words into the rules which is always a no no.

Technically the character would never be defeated with second chance on it because Before ability resolves first.

Finn has 9 damage on him. When resolving dice for 6 damage, that would defeat him so you use 2nd chance and heal 5 damage from him. He would now have 4 damage on him, Then you add the 6 damage bringing him up to 10, which would then defeat him.

Before abilities, page 16

If, during the course of a game, a before ability meets its trigger condition, immediately resolve the before ability before continuing to resolve the rest of the effect. In this way, before abilities can interrupt the fow of the game.

Example: One with the Force (r42) says “Before attached character is defeated, this card becomes a support for the rest of the game.” The trigger condition is “attached character is defeated,” and the timing word “before” tells you to resolve the rest of the effect before the trigger condition resolves.

But the damage was already dealt... To force the condition. Why do you think the extra damage is saved?

Thank you for this post, this is helping me understand where confusion on this is coming in. Essentially, we have two camps here that see damage resolution two different ways. The question is do we do the check for the would be defeated condition as the damage is declared to be resolved or after it is resolved. I don't think either side is really right...it's just two different types of players who say

"I'm going to do 6 damage to Finn which will defeat him"

and another player who says

"I did 6 damage to Finn which defeats him"

Digging more in to the rules, looking at 14 talking about resolving dice and page 15 about damage clears things up for us I think. We need to remember we should be resolving our dice one at a time, even if they are all ranged damage for example.

Lets say Player A has 1 Ranged, a +1 Ranged, and a 3 Ranged damage showing, and Player B has Finn with 1 Health with Second Chance. Player A would be wise to resolve the 1 Damage die first, which would trigger the Second Chance, pushing Player B's Finn back to 5 health. Player A could then continue to resolve their Ranged damage die by using the 3 Ranged and the +1 for a total of 4 more damage.

That last paragraph from the rules seems to be the most exact way to play things by the book.

Technically the character would never be defeated with second chance on it because Before ability resolves first.

Finn has 9 damage on him. When resolving dice for 6 damage, that would defeat him so you use 2nd chance and heal 5 damage from him. He would now have 4 damage on him, Then you add the 6 damage bringing him up to 10, which would then defeat him.

Before abilities, page 16

If, during the course of a game, a before ability meets its trigger condition, immediately resolve the before ability before continuing to resolve the rest of the effect. In this way, before abilities can interrupt the fow of the game.

Example: One with the Force (r42) says “Before attached character is defeated, this card becomes a support for the rest of the game.” The trigger condition is “attached character is defeated,” and the timing word “before” tells you to resolve the rest of the effect before the trigger condition resolves.

But the damage was already dealt... To force the condition. Why do you think the extra damage is saved?

I don't think you're understanding it. The damage is not delt until the before ability resolves.

Quoting the rules again... If, during the course of a game, a before ability meets its trigger condition, immediately resolve the before ability before continuing to resolve the rest of the effect.

How can a character be defeated before the damage is dealt?

In order for a character to be defeated, they must be reduced to zero health. That can't happen until the damage has been resolved and dealt. You don't say "Finn is about to take 3 damage, which would reduce him to zero".

So:

- Die is resolved

- Damage is dealt and taken by Finn, reducing him to zero

- Finn is defeated

--- Second Chance activated before the defeat, replacing the defeat with heal 5

- Opponent resolves next die

There is most certainly a right answer here. You're jumping the gun on when a character is defeated, which is where you're going wrong.

Reducing health to zero would defeat the character. A character can't go past zero health. They are defeated. Except that before the actual defeat they are healed for five. I wouldn't say the card is super clear, but going to the letter of the rules and card text, I don't see how it could be interpreted that the five healing would be subject to overkill, especially as there is no such thing in the game (ignored past zero)

From the RRG, P17 under Replacement Effects:

Second Chance says "Before attached character would be defeated, instead heal 5 damage from it and discard this upgrade from play." Because this prevents the character from being defeated, the character is never considered to have been defeated".

So the character specifically is not defeated when Second Chance triggers (because yes, if they were, they would go through the defeated character process of losing dice etc). You say that a character can't go below zero health, but that is different from a character can't take have X damage on it. But any argument that starts with ' the character is defeated' is definitely wrong.

There may be an argument in the damage steps and whether the damage stays or not, but it doesn't really look like the game has a specific breakdown on how damage is assigned.

So to me, the way it makes sense is:

Character takes X damage which is enough to defeat them. Lets assume they are on 1 Health, and take 6 damage.

Second Chance kicks in, they aren't defeated, they heal for 5. They are on 6 Health.

They've taken 6 damage, they've got 6 Health, they are defeated.

Now, can damage stack beyond their health? Under Defeated characters it says Any excess damage from a source that defeats the character is ignored. But if the character *isn't defeated*, this shouldn't kick in. So unless there's another rule somewhere else, why would the damage get cut off? Unless we assume that Second Chance 'kind of' defeats them, but only on certain points?

That damage is not going onto the character one at a time. Its six damage dealt at once. Which then triggers the before effect of second chance. You don't count out, oh he had only one health left so five of the damage I dealt would be put asid to be able to deal later. They all happen at the same time.

As Demegafish stated already, you can continue resolving the rest of your damage dice after. But all modified dice count at the same time.

So the character specifically is not defeated when Second Chance triggers (because yes, if they were, they would go through the defeated character process of losing dice etc). You say that a character can't go below zero health, but that is different from a character can't take have X damage on it. But any argument that starts with ' the character is defeated' is definitely wrong.

I think you're misunderstanding how replacement effects actually work. Or possibly how "Before" triggers work, I'm not entirely sure.

The condition for Second Chance is when the character is defeated. If they aren't actually at zero health, they aren't defeated, and Second Chance can't trigger. It's only after it triggers - when the character is defeated - that it says "No, you're only MOSTLY dead." The arguments that start with "the character is defeated" is exactly right, because that's exactly what the card says.

Until the trigger is actually met - by the character meeting the conditions for defeat - Second Chance does nothing. You can't say "The damage that is about to be dealt will defeat him so Second Chance activates", or "Once you resolve that die it'll defeat him so Second Chance activates."

Except the character is *never defeated*, as per the specific citation on replacement effect. The damage cut off happens when the character is defeated, if they are never defeated, what happens with the damage? One major argument I can see is whether Second Chance's 'Would be defeated' is what causes the damage cut off, while being different from the character being defeated. Except that per the rules on Defeated Characters, it specifically says that damage that defeats a character is ignored, not damage that *would* defeat a character.

There's absolutely some grey areas, and I can definitely understand it if it ruled one way or the other. But it feels like the current rules aren't clear enough to rule 100% either way. Part of it is how literal the reading of the rules should be for Defeated Characters. The other part is that damage isn't broken down into specific, individual steps the way it is in some games e.g., is 'defeated' only checked after damage is resolved, or can it interrupt the damage dealing process itself?

Note that second chance - unlike Count Dooku - is before the character is defeated. Dooku is before damage is dealt. If FFG had wanted the damage to be applied after the healing of five then they could have worded second chance in the same way as Dooku. They did not, there is an in-game distinction between before damage is dealt and before defeated.

So for second chance you have:

Apply damage - If the characters health hits zero (damage tokens equal to health) do not add any further damage tokens (the rest is ignored).

Check if character is defeated (damage tokens equal to health) if they are then BEFORE taking the steps involved with defeating a character apply second chance.

Second chance means you heal 5 damage INSTEAD of being defeated - it cancels the defeated marker such that the steps involved now do not resolve - they are overwritten in the queue.

So unlike Dooku and Qui-Gon where the ability is an interrupt and is effectively slotted into the queue ahead of its trigger condition, second chance overwrites its trigger condition - replaces it such that it never happened.

Furelli

Except the character is *never defeated*

Yes, they are. Again: If the character isn't defeated, Second Chance would never trigger. The character MUST BE defeated, and that CANNOT happen until after the damage is resolved.

Effectively, the character is defeated by the dealt damage, causing Second Chance to trigger, which then replaces what happened and un-defeats them. But the damage has been dealt by that point, and Second Chance does nothing to change that, only the defeated condition. It also doesn't mean the character was never defeated. For a brief point in the flow, they were. Then Second Chance interrupts that before you resolve it - not before it happens - and changes what you do. But it doesn't rewrite the timeline. It doesn't mean the character was never defeated. It means they were, then Second Chance changed it.

You're also way overthinking the damage flow. Damage is applied at an atomic event. The defeat check is constant. Before you add damage, is the character defeated? No. Now you add all the damage. Are they defeated? Yes. Trigger effects which rely on defeat.

"Any excess damage dealt to a character from a source that

defeats the character is ignored."

"Because this prevents the character from being defeated, the character is never considered to have been defeated"

So in my opinion, if the character with 2nd chance has never been defeated, excess damage can't be ignored, because in order to ignore excess damage it has to defeat the character.

Except the character is *never defeated*

Yes, they are.

Page 17, replacement effects, 2nd chance is LITERALLY the example they use.

Yes the character was defeated - in order to trigger Second Chance they have to be - but following triggering Second Chance they are no longer defeated. BUT all this happens after the damage has been applied and the excess above the characters health has been ignored.

Furelli

Steps.

1: resolve die (add modifiers dice)

2: target character deal Damage ignoreren excess Damage

3: check for defeat

4: defeat character and discarded

Step 3 is where second chance Comes in

Zo finn survives

But it feels like the current rules aren't clear enough to rule 100% either way.

Sure it is. I already said why you wouldn't finish the damage.

You guys are confusing yourself with Is he Defeated is he not crap that doesn't matter per the ruling of how the damage is done and would be implemented.

The question deals with 6 damage. 2 normal damage and two modified +2 damages.

The rules state:

MODIFIER

Some dice have one or more blue sides with a plus sign (+) before the value. Sides with a plus can only be resolved at the same time as another die that shows the same symbol without a plus. While resolving, the plus value is added to the other die to create a new value .

Example: You roll a +2 j symbol. You also roll a 1 j symbol, so you can resolve the +2 j along with the 1 j for 3 ranged damage dealt to any one character.

Damage dealt during the same action is usually dealt at different times since the dice are resolved one at a time. The only time multiple dice deal damage at the exact same time is when a die is being modified by other dice.

Both of those rules give us a clear cut ruling on how this second chance situation would play out.

The player would resolve his 2 damage side adding the two +2 modified dice to his resolve. Those would add up to 6 total damage (as if you were resolving one die with a 6 damage side) So as the rules state all six damage is done at the exact same time. Not split up to, you doing 1 damage which would defeat the character and then second chance would be used and the other 5 damage would be applied. (That cant happen.)

So really the player attacking would be better off using the 2 damage only.