Oh man...that sounds delicious!

It also protects him from Quickdraw shenanigans since most UPSs will activate before her. Not that that is a giant factor, but it is nice anyways.

PtL states "Once per Round"

too delicious i guess.

You still get one action during your normal perform action step. And if you take the cheapest Upsilon and take initiative, you can reposition Soontir before a bomber K-wing gets on top of him. Sounds good.

I used to dabble with that little ship that dies a lot. And I think I want to fly him again at the local tournament level this season.

But every time I look at a palp + stuff list I have to ask myself ..."self,shouldnt you just use a defender instead these days?"

And then I'm all ..." well Mr. Other self... logic and reasoning say yes...take the defender instead. But I noticed our heart still wants to try more soontir."

Yes self...it's a tough call. It seems like soontir fel is now in the'for fun list's category. And the more stable ship is better suited to go and win a game.

That's true other self. Ay least that's my read on the situation. Let's go ask the forum folks if they feel similarly.

Ok self...let's do that. Then get some coffee together and hang out.

Sounds good self. Hey! Don't get fresh with me self! Stop touching me there. Besides were at the grocery....people will think we are wierd.

But...I have strong feelings for you.

But...we mustn't!

Yes!

No!

Yes!

*Passionate kiss in the rain..

Aaannnnddd..

Scene!

So is it **** if your other self doesn't give consent?

It would be yes. But,my other self is a tease that likes to play hard to get.It`s part of a roleplaying excercise that we use to keep the relationship fresh.

Soontir just made the cut at the Georgia regional. You can fly literally anything right now except the punisher.

Wouldn't it be nice if everyone just wanted to make the best possible game possible for the people who play the game? What theory is that?

Seriously though. I understand that you will never reach a nirvana like state of balance in a game with different and customizable pieces unless you used like a 10,000,000 point system, but is there not a theory about doing every bleeping thing to get things as CLOSE to balanced as possible, with things like, say, math and massive amounts of playtesting?

It's not really a working business model, though. FFG have created the X-Wing game to sell expansion packs but if the game is balanced and remains balanced then there's no need for players to buy expansion packs - their old squad is still perfectly good. FFG's business model for X-Wing is to continually stir the pot to make some ships good and others bad so you have to stop playing the bad ones and buy the good ones, then six months later change it round again so you have to buy new ships. It's on the road to what GW did with 40k but not quite as morale-busting for the people on the wrong end of it because a new squad is a lot cheaper than a new army.

Look at Blood Bowl. Probably the best game GW ever made but they effectively delisted it because it was too balanced and didn't make any money after people had bought their 15 or 16 miniatures that were all they'd ever need.

X-Wing will never be balanced because the strategy is to create a constant flux of imbalance.

But I think that even if it was balanced from wave 1 to wave x, players would still buy new releases. With an IP like Star Wars, this is one of the cases where you can actually get away with that. A massive amount of purchses are based on the fact that it is Star Wars, not that expansion X has card Z that makes Pilot Y unstoppable.

Either way, I think whatever tactic FFG is using, it works for the most part and I'm plenty satisfied with it.

This! But they didn't know it was going to be this long lasting or successful unfortunately. But I'm pretty sure wave 4ish they could have made that shift.

Soontir just made the cut at the Georgia regional. You can fly literally anything right now except the punisher.

And Kfighters. And MOST t-65.

A trip-ace list with Soontir made the cut at X-Wars here in Florida yesterday. I tried to hit him, still a slippery bastard.

A trip-ace list with Soontir made the cut at X-Wars here in Florida yesterday. I tried to hit him, still a slippery bastard.

Triple Ace lists are imo in a good place right now in general for imperials. Well, or triple defenders.

too delicious i guess.

It is still great. Turtle up, then remove stress and still be free for a repositioning action. Or a TL if you run that mod.

I love it when people point to the exceptions that prove the rule as evidence that the rule doesn't exist.

So, in a nutshell, can the best point-for-point pilot in the game, that can equip two modifications on his fast and agile ship still be viable?

Probably I guess.

Right now I don't think he is, especially. There's so much stuff that hates on him I simply wouldn't take the risk.

Nobody here ever said Soontir can't succeed. In particular making the cut at regionals is very possible if you fly him well. Even if you get a bad matchup and lose, you can still recover by winning all the other games. And if you don't care about large tournaments and your local meta isn't heavy with stuff that might kill Soontir right away, he might be downright fantastic.

That said, threads like this one are not about casual gaming. They're not even about making the cut at the regionals - there's usually at least one odd list that manages to do so because the guy flying it got lucky with his pairings or with his dice, he's skillful enough to overcome the weaknesses of his list etc. Such feats are to be admired but by no means do they define whether or not a certain ship or pilot is viable or not.

What these threads are usually about is whether or not a list containing the particular ship or pilot can be expected to have a decent chance of winning a large tournament or at least getting close to doing so. In case of Soontir I believe the answer is sadly no. Not because he's not efficient anymore - to the contrary, his arc dodging potential is perhaps greater than ever with all the low-PS defenders around. His problem is that a sizable portion of popular lists counters him very, very hard. So hard that it's almost impossible to win if you encounter an opponent flying such a list. As a result, taking Soontir to a tournament is a case of russian roulette. A large part of your success or failure rests on factors outside of your control. This means Soontir lacks the consistency required to consider him viable in competitive lists.

Some people made comments that it was always the case because even before the rise of bomber K-wings it was possible to create lists that hard counter Soontir. While it's technically true, such squadrons were themselves quite helpless against many other lists, which limited their popularity and made the risk of encountering them relatively low. What changed is that right now you can create a viable list by spending 50-100% of your total points on bombers. Such a list is not only auto-win vs imperial aces such as Soontir but also has a great chance of doing well against defenders, scum aces or even rebel regen. As a result, your chances of encountering lists like that are quite high. As is the risk that your tournament experience will end with helplessness and frustration as your list is stomped over with nothing you can do about it. Not fun.

Wouldn't it be nice if everyone just wanted to make the best possible game possible for the people who play the game? What theory is that?

Seriously though. I understand that you will never reach a nirvana like state of balance in a game with different and customizable pieces unless you used like a 10,000,000 point system, but is there not a theory about doing every bleeping thing to get things as CLOSE to balanced as possible, with things like, say, math and massive amounts of playtesting?

It's not really a working business model, though. FFG have created the X-Wing game to sell expansion packs but if the game is balanced and remains balanced then there's no need for players to buy expansion packs - their old squad is still perfectly good. FFG's business model for X-Wing is to continually stir the pot to make some ships good and others bad so you have to stop playing the bad ones and buy the good ones, then six months later change it round again so you have to buy new ships. It's on the road to what GW did with 40k but not quite as morale-busting for the people on the wrong end of it because a new squad is a lot cheaper than a new army.

Look at Blood Bowl. Probably the best game GW ever made but they effectively delisted it because it was too balanced and didn't make any money after people had bought their 15 or 16 miniatures that were all they'd ever need.

X-Wing will never be balanced because the strategy is to create a constant flux of imbalance.

But I think that even if it was balanced from wave 1 to wave x, players would still buy new releases. With an IP like Star Wars, this is one of the cases where you can actually get away with that. A massive amount of purchses are based on the fact that it is Star Wars, not that expansion X has card Z that makes Pilot Y unstoppable.

Either way, I think whatever tactic FFG is using, it works for the most part and I'm plenty satisfied with it.

This is well summed up. I only slightly balk at Kdubb's closing statement; I haven't really been impressed with quite a few releases since Wave 7. Maybe they didn't give the cards enough play testing or pushed ships out a bit quick. This could be marketing and management telling them to push out product while the game is hot, or it could be the Disney influence as they tend to flood the market with movie related crap even well before the movie is viewed.

It's a Star Wars game, if they don't **** it up, it will sell just fine. They have a tremendously wonderful balanced game (allbeit a bit shaky right now) and a true attention to detail in the painted miniatures that is nigh art. They just need to keep a few things high on their design flow chart, so as not to kill the golden goose:

1) Keep the X-Wing (T-65) enjoyable and playable without just replacing it with the T-70...Emperor Biggs aside.

2) Keep the TIE Fighter enjoyable and playable without just replacing it with another TIE variant. Swarms of the Icon should always be feared.

3) Don't make the factions loose all of their uniqueness, A) the Empire should always be at the peak of technology, speed and firepower, B) the Rebels should have solid multi-use ships with pilots that can get through situations that makes you say, 'that with amazing', C) the Scum should be stealthy and hit you in weird, surprising ways but not be about standard weapons or maneuverability.

4) And for goodness sake, don't just add ships of ---- faction because they need to balance the numbers; the factions were NEVER balanced in the cannon.

It's not rocket science.........just rockets.

(It was Carnor not Soontir in my case but it does not matter)

I killed him. In 2 turns. With no shooting at him. With Manaroo.

Any more questions?

(It was Carnor not Soontir in my case but it does not matter)

I killed him. In 2 turns. With no shooting at him. With Manaroo.

Any more questions?

If that would have been fangs, you would have lost manaroo in those two turns

(It was Carnor not Soontir in my case but it does not matter)

I killed him. In 2 turns. With no shooting at him. With Manaroo.

Any more questions?

I still fly Jax all the time and haven't lost to a Manaroo list with him yet. Between two Jax lists I'm currently 18-2 in 4 tournaments in the last month (and undefeated in friendlies), including getting first in the swiss of a 90-player regional. Even with all that I'd still say that neither of our personal anecdotes are really significant in the grand scheme of things.

Personally I find Carnor's ability to be amazing in this meta full of mindlinked ships and tokened up defenders, so as long as you have an answer to bomber Ks and ace hunters (i.e. anything with zuckuss and/or 4lom) then you're good to go. Of course, this thread was about Soontir Fel and unfortunately for him he doesn't bring as much value to the table and is just as fragile. He might still have a home in the right hands and in a list that can get him to the endgame, but he's definitely no longer a meta staple.

(It was Carnor not Soontir in my case but it does not matter)

I killed him. In 2 turns. With no shooting at him. With Manaroo.

Any more questions?

If that would have been fangs, you would have lost manaroo in those two turns

If that would be one fang result would be the same.

Bumps are best friends with Manaroo.

Barron Fel has always had a place on the table and always will. its just the meta is slightly against him at them moment

I think hes viable enpugh that you will run some kind of ace counter in your list. I dare you not to.

I think hes viable enpugh that you will run some kind of ace counter in your list. I dare you not to.

The problem is that same things that counter soontir counter defenders so....you will run them anyway...

I think hes viable enpugh that you will run some kind of ace counter in your list. I dare you not to.

The problem is that same things that counter soontir counter defenders so....you will run them anyway...

Depends.

If you want to counter Soontir Fel by taking zuckuss, crack shot homing missiles, and similar "dodge this!" attacks, then yes. Soontir, however, has a separate, arguably more easily exploited, weakness to stress - R3-A2 and similar are a nightmare to deal with for precisely this reason, and a lot of people (used to) take the 'cheap option' and put in stress mechanics to deal with aces.

Since TIE defenders are not massively susceptible to stress, this has become a lot less common as they become more common - which, if it's less prevalent, makes TIE interceptors more tempting again