OP: Your idea's are not bad, but as I have stated before.

The problem with the Punisher is that it's more points, but carries the same amount of payload as the smaller bomber. Sure it has boost, but that is not enough.

Punishers should have a title as follows:

This fits the fluff of this ship, in that in the lore it was not able to be ion'ed or tractor beamed and often took ion hits without being affected(Due to insulated hull). Now it carries one more of each ordnance since it does have 4 tubes. You have a ship which is very different than a normal bomber and makes it unique too.

I realize I'm ignorant; but as my old boss said, "there's no such thing as a stupid question; only a stupid answer."

So, I have a K-Wing, but haven't flown her; I just purchased her to get the TLTs which I personally detest and haven't used them since their maiden flight (that's a story for another day). Anyway, what makes the Rebel's bomb/missile platform perform well enough to not only get on mats all the time, but make it to top tables regularly? Whatever that is, can it be put through the Imp modulator and spit out an Imp title card that effectively gives the Punisher the ability to be even remotely fielded when games matter?

SLAM, bombs, sabine, and TLTs (the PWT also helps), with a die of regen. It's not really missiles that do it, though Miranda with Homing Missiles is a scary, scary prospect for any low hull ace.

SLAM makes it a much better kiting ship and a much better bomber, especially with ASLAM, as does Sabine crew. TLTs make it a WAY better kiting ship as it doesn't have to get arc, especialy because i has the PWT to guard its donut hole. Crew slot also adds a LOT of options.

System is arguably better than crew for munitions firing, but munitions firing isn't what makes the K good.

So you answered the first question admirably, not the second.

I answered the second question just fine - nothing the Punisher has is what makes the K good, so looking to the K for inspiration isn't going to cut it, except maybe if you wanted to give it SLAM, and even that, that only really benefits Deathrain, and not as much as it does the K because the best use for it is turn>SLAM>turn>bomb, and DR doesn't really need the SLAM/turn bit to do the bomb bit. And you still don't get it to the same tier as Ks because Sabine helps them so much.

K wings are good because they can fire out of arc, and do shenanigans with bombs.

Punishers can't do either of those things except DR, who's the best of the bunch by far.

But even then, I don't think you want to make the Punisher the Imp K Wing. You want to make it the Punisher - but better.

For my money, you do that by making it able to fire more missiles and torps faster and more reliably. Don't increase its defence, decrease its cost and increase its punch. Buffing bombs is also a good plan, and the double bomb idea above is neat for that purpose.

If I were designing it to start off with I might have given it a 180 primary arc to represent how well missiles and torps home in some of the x-wing games, but that's a bigger change than they'd be likely to implement.

Thanks for the explanation of answering my inquiry. Well typed. I think I stated the same thing you did in this last post when you penned, "I don't think you want to make the Punisher the Imp K Wing. You want to make it the Punisher - but better." I stated it in my odd and cryptic way, as the Punisher not copying or having abilities like the K, but to have it's greatness "put through the Imp modulator and spit out an Imp title card that effectively gives the Punisher the ability to be even remotely fielded when games matter." I didn't expect or want the same abilities, just Imp ones that deliver the same damage/evasiveness while using Imp construction and techniques. I think this thread may be onto something......

OP: Your idea's are not bad, but as I have stated before.

The problem with the Punisher is that it's more points, but carries the same amount of payload as the smaller bomber. Sure it has boost, but that is not enough.

Punishers should have a title as follows:

Title: Heavy Bomber

Tie Punisher Only

0 Pts

When the Extra munitions upgrade card is placed on this ship it adds two Extra Munitions tokens. In addition count this ship as large for any effects which hit it. (Tractor Beams, Ions, Weapons, etc)

Now it follows the old Lore and makes the ship much more playable.

This fits the fluff of this ship, in that in the lore it was not able to be ion'ed or tractor beamed and often took ion hits without being affected(Due to insulated hull). Now it carries one more of each ordnance since it does have 4 tubes. You have a ship which is very different than a normal bomber and makes it unique too.

This effectively lowers the ship cost by 2 and gives it some additional resistance to being ion-ed or tractored.... That seems to go a positive, yet cautious direction.

well, its probably the biggest "TIE" were ever going to see and its already pretty dang close to a large ship size. I could see counting it as a large ship for those effects.

OP: Your idea's are not bad, but as I have stated before.

The problem with the Punisher is that it's more points, but carries the same amount of payload as the smaller bomber. Sure it has boost, but that is not enough.

Punishers should have a title as follows:

Title: Heavy Bomber

Tie Punisher Only

0 Pts

When the Extra munitions upgrade card is placed on this ship it adds two Extra Munitions tokens. In addition count this ship as large for any effects which hit it. (Tractor Beams, Ions, Weapons, etc)

Now it follows the old Lore and makes the ship much more playable.

This fits the fluff of this ship, in that in the lore it was not able to be ion'ed or tractor beamed and often took ion hits without being affected(Due to insulated hull). Now it carries one more of each ordnance since it does have 4 tubes. You have a ship which is very different than a normal bomber and makes it unique too.

This effectively lowers the ship cost by 2 and gives it some additional resistance to being ion-ed or tractored.... That seems to go a positive, yet cautious direction.

Is being ioned/tractored a problem for the Punisher? I would have thought just shooting it normally would be a better use of an attack. (Tie D's aside)

I'm also looking into Punishers for an ace pack; they definitely need a hand. We should both remember that lightweight frames is probably at its best when equipped to the Punisher and take that into account during our thinking.

Lightweight frame instead of LRS or Chimps on an ordinance platform?

I'm also looking into Punishers for an ace pack; they definitely need a hand. We should both remember that lightweight frames is probably at its best when equipped to the Punisher and take that into account during our thinking.

Lightweight frame instead of LRS or Chimps on an ordinance platform?

A full bomber, of course, doesnt need chips in the first place.

I'm also looking into Punishers for an ace pack; they definitely need a hand. We should both remember that lightweight frames is probably at its best when equipped to the Punisher and take that into account during our thinking.

Lightweight frame instead of LRS or Chimps on an ordinance platform?

Punisher and other ordnance fixes might eliminate the need for GC/LRS on the punisher, and while the punisher has those missile and torpedo slots, it also has two bomb slots. You could build around those bomb slots. It's also a 2-attack ship with a system slot. Accuracy corrector makes it very joust-efficient (although the 2-attack dice limit doesn't seem like enough damage output these days to cut the mustard). LF significantly ups durability on the Punisher; its something to keep in mind during the design.

OP: Your idea's are not bad, but as I have stated before.

The problem with the Punisher is that it's more points, but carries the same amount of payload as the smaller bomber. Sure it has boost, but that is not enough.

Punishers should have a title as follows:

Title: Heavy Bomber

Tie Punisher Only

0 Pts

When the Extra munitions upgrade card is placed on this ship it adds two Extra Munitions tokens. In addition count this ship as large for any effects which hit it. (Tractor Beams, Ions, Weapons, etc)

Now it follows the old Lore and makes the ship much more playable.

This fits the fluff of this ship, in that in the lore it was not able to be ion'ed or tractor beamed and often took ion hits without being affected(Due to insulated hull). Now it carries one more of each ordnance since it does have 4 tubes. You have a ship which is very different than a normal bomber and makes it unique too.

This effectively lowers the ship cost by 2 and gives it some additional resistance to being ion-ed or tractored.... That seems to go a positive, yet cautious direction.

Is being ioned/tractored a problem for the Punisher? I would have thought just shooting it normally would be a better use of an attack. (Tie D's aside)

Ions aren't a huge issue because it likes slow rolling and is rarely stressed, though being predictable hurts it. Tractors are nasty because they hit it so easily and remove what little defence it had. This would be an interesting change and probably a balanced one, but wouldn't do a lot for it power-wise unless both those things become a LOT more common.

Updated "built in deadeye" pilot.

I'm thinking a double action high PS for the second pilot, something like "When you perform a Boost action, aquire a Target Lock" at PS8 or 9

Thoughts on either?

TL from boost sounds like a pretty solid ability for Hi-PS pilot, yep.

Here's my take on your first card OP. I made it a missile slot so that the TIE Bomber, K-wing and Firespray could benefit from it. The K-wing is doing fine right now in the meta but its not used as a missile or torpedo carrier that often. I limited it to range 3 so that it cannot be used with cluster missiles (unless you're flying Rhymer but hey he needs help too) and it limits the number of times you can set up the double tap. Finally I cost it at 2 points because its still a really devastating ability. Since it is a missile you can use it in conjunction with extra munitions so I think 2 points is fair.

I'd rather change his pilot ability to "If a game effect requires you to lose a target lock, you may instead keep it." Unlimited target lock, counter to black one, ... But quite similar to redline.

Also I'd make the double-tap Corran-Horn like: "When attacking with a *missile* or *torpedo*, you may spend a munitions token to perform the attack twice. If you do, you may not use your secondary weapon next round."

I couldnt resist the idea of Vectored Thrusters on him for an arcdodging heavy bomber.

Also:

Usable by the Bwing (in the same ace Pack, so I'll need to watch the combo with Gyrostabilizer) G1A, Ywing, and Kwing.

Locks down Vectored Thrusters Advanced SLAM, and Lightened Frame, but not Bwing E2, Munition Failsafe, Guidance Chips, ect.

The extra hull and shield are worth 4 points according to Chewie, but chewie can go on 2 agility (or even 3 agility Sabine Tie) and this is limited to small base 1 agility.

Here's my take on your first card OP. I made it a missile slot so that the TIE Bomber, K-wing and Firespray could benefit from it. The K-wing is doing fine right now in the meta but its not used as a missile or torpedo carrier that often. I limited it to range 3 so that it cannot be used with cluster missiles (unless you're flying Rhymer but hey he needs help too) and it limits the number of times you can set up the double tap. Finally I cost it at 2 points because its still a really devastating ability. Since it is a missile you can use it in conjunction with extra munitions so I think 2 points is fair.

As a Torpedo slot that may work- So that Tie Bombers and Tie Punishers can take advantage of Extra Munitions, whereas Kwings and Firesprays just get their one alpha strike. It does nothing for bombs, however which leaves Deathrain sad.

I made my version persistant to keep the punisher a threat as long as it had ordinance, rather than just getting one or two powerful shots, then it's down to a single launch tube.

I think the best suggestion i've seen on this thread is the idea of adding one attack die to munitions. It represents a linked firing system, because the extra attack die shows the Punisher's extra shots being fired. I would also suggest a system to represent advanced targeting systems, to help them get target locks.

Maybe make the title like this:

Heavy munition load

When attacking with a torpedo or missile, roll one additional attack die.

TIE Punisher, title, 1 point.

The one point is to avoid it being auto-include, and so that you have to think about taking it with a ship that uses more bombs.

And the system:

Munitions guidance computer:

At the start of the combat phase, you may perform a free target lock action.

Tie punisher, system, 0 points.

The timing helps generics more than named pilots, and fills a usually empty slot, while giving the ship more action efficiency.

Edit: spelling

I think the best suggestion i've seen on this thread is the idea of adding one attack die to munitions. It represents a linked firing system, because the extra attack die shows the Punisher's extra ***** being fired. I would also suggest a system to represent advanced targeting systems, to help them get target locks.

Maybe make the title like this:

Heavy munition load

When attacking with a torpedo or missile, roll one additional attack die.

TIE Punisher, title, 1 point.

The one point is to avoid it being auto-include, and so that you have to think about taking it with a ship that uses more bombs.

And the system:

Munitions guidance computer:

At the start of the combat phase, you may perform a free target lock action.

Tie punisher, system, 0 points.

The timing helps generics more than named pilots, and fills a usually empty slot, while giving the ship more action efficiency.

Fantastic! Love the idea's!

I couldnt resist the idea of Vectored Thrusters on him for an arcdodging heavy bomber.

I love his pilot ability and name but PS9 is a bit high for a heavy bomber.

How would heavy frame work with the barrel roll? Movement isn't really a game term, and if you read that as maneuvers then the Punisher's barrel roll is being really limited. If you meant movement to include the action, then it probably needs a better explanation of that. Seems really cheap compared to Hull and Shield Upgrades, of course.

Double-tapping ordinance still seems dangerously good, but if it were to have it then the Fire-Linked card would be how to have it, with range restrictions and one-time use. Had to check Tomax though, because that could have been trouble.

I like Overdrive, though PS 9 seems high.

He can be PS8 for a point less, but I really wanted to play with a reactively boosting heavy bomber, which means keeping up with the PS race without an ept.

How would heavy frame work with the barrel roll? Movement isn't really a game term, and if you read that as maneuvers then the Punisher's barrel roll is being really limited. If you meant movement to include the action, then it probably needs a better explanation of that. Seems really cheap compared to Hull and Shield Upgrades, of course.

Double-tapping ordinance still seems dangerously good, but if it were to have it then the Fire-Linked card would be how to have it, with range restrictions and one-time use. Had to check Tomax though, because that could have been trouble.

I like Overdrive, though PS 9 seems high.

I dond disagree about the effectiveness of doubletapping ordinance, but I think that its a thematic buff for an underpowered ship that is supposed to carry and simotaniously launch four times the bombers payload. Its not something any other ship should be able to match, because only the punisher has that many launchers.

How would heavy frame work with the barrel roll? Movement isn't really a game term, and if you read that as maneuvers then the Punisher's barrel roll is being really limited. If you meant movement to include the action, then it probably needs a better explanation of that. Seems really cheap compared to Hull and Shield Upgrades, of course.

Double-tapping ordinance still seems dangerously good, but if it were to have it then the Fire-Linked card would be how to have it, with range restrictions and one-time use. Had to check Tomax though, because that could have been trouble.

I like Overdrive, though PS 9 seems high.

Punisher has boost, not barrel roll. Bwings and mist hunter would use large base barrel rolls, which as you say is really limited, especially since the same pack will give Bwings a non-action BR when they stress- heavy frame costs them half their extra maneuverability.

I dond disagree about the effectiveness of doubletapping ordinance, but I think that its a thematic buff for an underpowered ship that is supposed to carry and simotaniously launch four times the bombers payload. Its not something any other ship should be able to match, because only the punisher has that many launchers.

Your cards disagree with you on the BR

You could parse Heavy Frame as "Small Ship Only", and then at the bottom "you cannot equip this card if your Agility Value is 2 or higher".

How would heavy frame work with the barrel roll? Movement isn't really a game term, and if you read that as maneuvers then the Punisher's barrel roll is being really limited. If you meant movement to include the action, then it probably needs a better explanation of that. Seems really cheap compared to Hull and Shield Upgrades, of course.

Double-tapping ordinance still seems dangerously good, but if it were to have it then the Fire-Linked card would be how to have it, with range restrictions and one-time use. Had to check Tomax though, because that could have been trouble.

I like Overdrive, though PS 9 seems high.

Punisher has boost, not barrel roll. Bwings and mist hunter would use large base barrel rolls, which as you say is really limited, especially since the same pack will give Bwings a non-action BR when they stress- heavy frame costs them half their extra maneuverability.

I dond disagree about the effectiveness of doubletapping ordinance, but I think that its a thematic buff for an underpowered ship that is supposed to carry and simotaniously launch four times the bombers payload. Its not something any other ship should be able to match, because only the punisher has that many launchers.

Your cards disagree with you on the BR

Blame Strange Eons. It also thinks Ewings have 4 shields, at least on my version.

You could parse Heavy Frame as "Small Ship Only", and then at the bottom "you cannot equip this card if your Agility Value is 2 or higher".

Like this?

General buff for non-PTL ties, particularly low cost swarmers.

Also combos well with Inspiring Recruit.

Imperials in general rely on fickle green dice. And when they work, they're amazing, but when they dont, thinks just fall apart. This card attempts to insert a (small) middle ground between those two extremes, taking a guarenteed penalty for a -chance- of increased reliability. Need to trigger it twice in one round? Whether it worked or not, you're now double stressed, which means no focus next round to make these rerolls useful.

Being free means that it's an easy choice for tie fighter swarms and lowPS intercepters that cant field PTL, or as a budget option on a ship that might otherwise take Stealth Device or Hull upgrade.