To match the Bwing Half-ace-pack I posted a previous week, this post looks into making the Tie Punisher a unique and playable ship, while providing quality of life buffs for munition-carrying Tie Bombers, Kwings, and Slave1-equipped Firesprays.

The first problem is that the Punisher isnt all that much more duable than a Tie Bomber, while costing half again as much. It has 4 of the exact same munition pod as the tie bomber, but carries almost the same ordinance load. Clearly it needs something.

-or-

(Point cost is up for discussion if the effect is too strong)

This upgrade has 2 thematically linked effects- It fires 2 missiles/torpedos whenever you spend a card to fire one, and it drops 2 bombs whenever you spend a card to drop 1.

A tie Punisher firing a Cluster Missile actually gets 4 attacks... but only one of those attacks gains the benifit of Guidance Chips, and FCS only goes off when all 4 attacks have resolved. However, Redline, for instance, could fire a pair of modified Homing Missiles in a single attack, and Deathrain could drop two angled connor net with a single action. (though he may need to be carefull about how he avoids hitting them next turn)

The alternative version replaces doubletapping missiles with simply adding dice, letting them force their way through high green dice bysuperior numbers. I'm not really happy with this solution, and feel the first makes more thematic sence- two flechette torps will apply their utility twice, for instance, whereas extra dice is just extra dice. But it is a weaker version of a very powerful card, so I putting it up for comparison.

Clearly, this makes munitions worth WAY more on the punisher than on other ships, but the punisher's fragility is a limiting factor- putting more points on the punisher than nessisary is just wasted point if the shots are not fired. It needs a certian amount to make up for the punisher's overcostedness, but too much will only paint a bullseye on it.

a low PS with built in Deadeye on a ship that not even the high PS pilots get EPTs for.

Also gets to keep Target locks that would be discarded by Black One or Countermeasures.

High PS with action efficency ability. he can boost into TL for shots noone else would get, or he can pick up Vectored thrusters and have the hilarity of being an arcdodging heavy bomber.

Usable by Punisher, G1A, ARC, Ywing, and Kwing, and notionally by the Gunboat if it returns for Season 2. It blocks Vectored Thrusters, Advanced SLAM, and Lightened frame, but not Bwing E2, Munition failsafe, LRS or GC. The extra hull+shield is worth 4 according to Chewbacca, but Chewie can be put on agility 2 rebels (or even agility 3 Sabine Tie). The "Count as Large ship" affect mainly Tractor Beams and Ion tokens- though the Bwing and Mist Hunter lose some Barrel Roll maneuverability.

If it needs a bit of extra "oomph", either dropping the point value to 2, or letting it give a second hull are both options that could use testing.

A 0 point Modification worth losing a slot over, but not worth spending points for.

It's a slight boost to a Heavy Frame punisher, gaining a defensive Lone Wolf effect when shields are down, but it's real benefit is to Tie swarms and EPTless Interceptors, who live or die by their green dice. An interceptor who takes nothing because of this card becomes stressed, which makes it a poor combination with PTL for ace pilots, and it doesn't work if your panels are covered by shields

What are your thoughts and comments?

I wouldn't allow either of those at my table. Munitions are already good. The problems with the TIE Bomber and Punisher are not with them. Predicting your needs is already built in to the cost of munitions, too.

I wouldn't allow either of those at my table. Munitions are already good. The problems with the TIE Bomber and Punisher are not with them. Predicting your needs is already built in to the cost of munitions, too.

These cards buff underpowered ships without buffing balanced ships. Does it matter that it makes munitions OP on a munition-based ship?

I'd honestly make a title that cuts the cost of ordnance by two.

Without an EPT slot, there's an opening for a pilot wiht built in Deadeye.

I made it better than deadeye, but tied it to an expensive PS8 pilot. However, with the way it interacts with the Punisher's bank-boost action, I may go back and make this a PS5 pilot, and give it an extra point or two on top.

I wouldn't allow either of those at my table. Munitions are already good. The problems with the TIE Bomber and Punisher are not with them. Predicting your needs is already built in to the cost of munitions, too.

These cards buff underpowered ships without buffing balanced ships. Does it matter that it makes munitions OP on a munition-based ship?

Yes, because of how it affects the game. The munition shot you're making with the ship is not underpowered, its how it performs the rest of the time. Making the munition attack twice is absolutely broken, no matter what platform is making them. You're not fixing any of the ship's problems, just overpowering its strength. Think how much better this is than even Corran. Especially when you happen to have exactly the right game-breaking munition equipped.

Speaking of which, Variable Loadout absolutely breaks the economy of munitions. The uncertainty in choosing munitions is already part of the cost. They should be more expensive if you know exactly what you want. Instead, you're discounting them and making them better. More importantly, letting you choose exactly what you need really gives you a ridiculous edge. It takes away the purpose of blind list making. It takes away the chance element of loadout. It adds a whole other step to the game that only it gets to take advantage of.

I'd honestly make a title that cuts the cost of ordnance by two.

I thought about making the double-tap title INCREASE the cost of munitions, but I'd rather roll that into the cost of the double tap card.

I wouldn't allow either of those at my table. Munitions are already good. The problems with the TIE Bomber and Punisher are not with them. Predicting your needs is already built in to the cost of munitions, too.

These cards buff underpowered ships without buffing balanced ships. Does it matter that it makes munitions OP on a munition-based ship?

Yes, because of how it affects the game. The munition shot you're making with the ship is not underpowered, its how it performs the rest of the time. Making the munition attack twice is absolutely broken, no matter what platform is making them. You're not fixing any of the ship's problems, just overpowering its strength. Think how much better this is than even Corran. Especially when you happen to have exactly the right game-breaking munition equipped.

Speaking of which, Variable Loadout absolutely breaks the economy of munitions. The uncertainty in choosing munitions is already part of the cost. They should be more expensive if you know exactly what you want. Instead, you're discounting them and making them better. More importantly, letting you choose exactly what you need really gives you a ridiculous edge. It takes away the purpose of blind list making. It takes away the chance element of loadout. It adds a whole other step to the game that only it gets to take advantage of.

The phrase is "glass cannon"- I embrace the weaknesses of the Tie Punisher and boost it's strengths to compensate.

Variable loadout might be nerfed for something like "pick 4 (T)(m)(b) secondary munitions, at start of game equip 2 of them" but I'm not seeing your price argument.

The first one looks OK to me, and the price is probably about right based on where they sit in the meta right now - i.e. NOWHERE. Punishers SHOULD be a terror when they're costing more points than Soontir or Vader.

The second one... yeah, it's probably too much, especially on K Wings. K Wings don't need the help.

Maybe if you could *only* equip those as secondary weapons and you couldn't equip any others it might work - killing the Firespray's cannon slot, and the K Wing's TLT, and meaning that if you wanted EM that had to be one of your two munitions for that card.

My thought was something like "Targetting lasers. 0 points. Punisher Only. System. After you make a primary weapon attack, you may acquire a target lock on the defender then make a secondary weapon attack." Basically a better version of FCS that fits their role better, but without doubling up on munitions shots which would be a LOT of punch when it comes particularly to Cluster Missiles... Then pull out Dual Chutes into a title or bomb upgrade. Maybe a mod.

Or even a title like

"You may treat the 'Attack: target lock' condition as 'Attack' you can not perform the target lock action"

Would make the cheaper punishers better for unloading their ordinance, but less accurate unless they have fcs attached

Or even a title like

"You may treat the 'Attack: target lock' condition as 'Attack' you can not perform the target lock action"

Would make the cheaper punishers better for unloading their ordinance, but less accurate unless they have fcs attached

I mean, Redline wants FCS anyway, but this REALLY limits his ability to actually use his pilot ability on high priority targets if he has to attack them before he can get a double lock and shoot really accurate missiles, thus giving them a full round to arc dodge him before he can fire again.

I think the Punisher is just a bit over-costed. If this ship is to get table time, it needs an assist at it's core. I think a title that basically adds extra munitions tokens to each munition; I was thinking two tokens on each munition as this crazy-looking ship has massive amounts of munitions space and it was clearly designed to carry such loads (it seems it could carry four times what a K-Wing could). This would basically create a ship that's two or four points cheaper depending if you think you could survive long enough to get them out of the pods.

I think the Punisher is just a bit over-costed. If this ship is to get table time, it needs an assist at it's core. I think a title that basically adds extra munitions tokens to each munition; I was thinking two tokens on each munition as this crazy-looking ship has massive amounts of munitions space and it was clearly designed to carry such loads (it seems it could carry four times what a K-Wing could). This would basically create a ship that's two or four points cheaper depending if you think you could survive long enough to get them out of the pods.

It being able to carry enough bombs and missiles and torps isn't the issue. It dying well before it's fired dry is.

I think the Punisher is just a bit over-costed. If this ship is to get table time, it needs an assist at it's core. I think a title that basically adds extra munitions tokens to each munition; I was thinking two tokens on each munition as this crazy-looking ship has massive amounts of munitions space and it was clearly designed to carry such loads (it seems it could carry four times what a K-Wing could). This would basically create a ship that's two or four points cheaper depending if you think you could survive long enough to get them out of the pods.

It being able to carry enough bombs and missiles and torps isn't the issue. It dying well before it's fired dry is.

I thought the mild cost reduction could give points to support ships to assist in the survive-ability of the squad. Maybe I missed the true problem with the ship. So do you think it need more shielding or a faster way to unload munitions?

I think the Punisher is just a bit over-costed. If this ship is to get table time, it needs an assist at it's core. I think a title that basically adds extra munitions tokens to each munition; I was thinking two tokens on each munition as this crazy-looking ship has massive amounts of munitions space and it was clearly designed to carry such loads (it seems it could carry four times what a K-Wing could). This would basically create a ship that's two or four points cheaper depending if you think you could survive long enough to get them out of the pods.

It being able to carry enough bombs and missiles and torps isn't the issue. It dying well before it's fired dry is.

I thought the mild cost reduction could give points to support ships to assist in the survive-ability of the squad. Maybe I missed the true problem with the ship. So do you think it need more shielding or a faster way to unload munitions?

That or being cheaper, yes.

The key issues I see with it are 1: expense/fragility, and 2: no way to front-load firing reliably against higher-PS ships - i.e. can't get in range and get a TL against many fast higher-PS types, so it's not firing until round 2, at which point it's half dead.

In other factions these problems are not really solved, except for ARCs which solve them by regen. LRS can solve the TL-on-higher-PS issue, but costs you chips which make your damage reliable, and telegraphs your movement a lot, as well as ruining FCS and cluster missiles' reliability.

So my preferred solutions would be to make them reliably able to shoot in round 1 (removing the TL requirement, basically, as noted above I like the idea of doing so by making them able to get a TL and fire a missile after shooting their primary, and double bombs as suggested above)), making them significantly more durable without making them any more expensive (I like the suggestion of giving them Reinforce), and/or making them a lot cheap, probably by giving them free EM AND a discount on buying munitions.

I realize I'm ignorant; but as my old boss said, "there's no such thing as a stupid question; only a stupid answer."

So, I have a K-Wing, but haven't flown her; I just purchased her to get the TLTs which I personally detest and haven't used them since their maiden flight (that's a story for another day). Anyway, what makes the Rebel's bomb/missile platform perform well enough to not only get on mats all the time, but make it to top tables regularly? Whatever that is, can it be put through the Imp modulator and spit out an Imp title card that effectively gives the Punisher the ability to be even remotely fielded when games matter?

I realize I'm ignorant; but as my old boss said, "there's no such thing as a stupid question; only a stupid answer."

So, I have a K-Wing, but haven't flown her; I just purchased her to get the TLTs which I personally detest and haven't used them since their maiden flight (that's a story for another day). Anyway, what makes the Rebel's bomb/missile platform perform well enough to not only get on mats all the time, but make it to top tables regularly? Whatever that is, can it be put through the Imp modulator and spit out an Imp title card that effectively gives the Punisher the ability to be even remotely fielded when games matter?

SLAM, bombs, sabine, and TLTs (the PWT also helps), with a die of regen. It's not really missiles that do it, though Miranda with Homing Missiles is a scary, scary prospect for any low hull ace.

SLAM makes it a much better kiting ship and a much better bomber, especially with ASLAM, as does Sabine crew. TLTs make it a WAY better kiting ship as it doesn't have to get arc, especialy because i has the PWT to guard its donut hole. Crew slot also adds a LOT of options.

System is arguably better than crew for munitions firing, but munitions firing isn't what makes the K good.

I suggest changing variable loadout to be a little less forgiving and variable; maybe try something like this wording:

If you have a torpedo/missile/bomb equipped, you may equip an extra upgrade of the same type that costs equal or fewer points for free. At the start of the first round, you must discard one of these upgrades and all munitions tokens on that card.

Or, an alternative to Extra Munitions:

If you have a torpedo/missile/bomb equipped, you may equip an extra upgrade of the same type that costs equal or fewer points for free. You may not place munitions tokens on these upgrades.

That gives you a choice between two missiles or torps or bombs going into a match.

I'm also looking into Punishers for an ace pack; they definitely need a hand. We should both remember that lightweight frames is probably at its best when equipped to the Punisher and take that into account during our thinking.

For the title, I'd suggest adding an extra attack die on Missile and Torpedo attacks instead of another attack. Two attacks would hammer low agility ships while still being a gamble against high agility aces. A free attack die would make the Punisher's alpha strike particularly scary, but wouldn't give it the ability to bring a Decimator or Ghost to half-health in one attack.

The extra bomb seems fine to me, though. I'd actually add a "you may" to give more options and make it more appealing on Deathrain.

Also, as the Variable Loadout upgrade is written, it looks like any upgrades you take with it won't get the benefit of Extra Munitions already equipped to the ship (Extra Munitions' tokens are assigned "When you equip this card," and your choices for VL don't show up until after the other cards are equipped). Since you're probably getting your chosen upgrades at a discount, that might be a reasonable drawback to VL.

I realize I'm ignorant; but as my old boss said, "there's no such thing as a stupid question; only a stupid answer."

So, I have a K-Wing, but haven't flown her; I just purchased her to get the TLTs which I personally detest and haven't used them since their maiden flight (that's a story for another day). Anyway, what makes the Rebel's bomb/missile platform perform well enough to not only get on mats all the time, but make it to top tables regularly? Whatever that is, can it be put through the Imp modulator and spit out an Imp title card that effectively gives the Punisher the ability to be even remotely fielded when games matter?

SLAM, bombs, sabine, and TLTs (the PWT also helps), with a die of regen. It's not really missiles that do it, though Miranda with Homing Missiles is a scary, scary prospect for any low hull ace.

SLAM makes it a much better kiting ship and a much better bomber, especially with ASLAM, as does Sabine crew. TLTs make it a WAY better kiting ship as it doesn't have to get arc, especialy because i has the PWT to guard its donut hole. Crew slot also adds a LOT of options.

System is arguably better than crew for munitions firing, but munitions firing isn't what makes the K good.

So you answered the first question admirably, not the second.

I realize I'm ignorant; but as my old boss said, "there's no such thing as a stupid question; only a stupid answer."

So, I have a K-Wing, but haven't flown her; I just purchased her to get the TLTs which I personally detest and haven't used them since their maiden flight (that's a story for another day). Anyway, what makes the Rebel's bomb/missile platform perform well enough to not only get on mats all the time, but make it to top tables regularly? Whatever that is, can it be put through the Imp modulator and spit out an Imp title card that effectively gives the Punisher the ability to be even remotely fielded when games matter?

SLAM, bombs, sabine, and TLTs (the PWT also helps), with a die of regen. It's not really missiles that do it, though Miranda with Homing Missiles is a scary, scary prospect for any low hull ace.

SLAM makes it a much better kiting ship and a much better bomber, especially with ASLAM, as does Sabine crew. TLTs make it a WAY better kiting ship as it doesn't have to get arc, especialy because i has the PWT to guard its donut hole. Crew slot also adds a LOT of options.

System is arguably better than crew for munitions firing, but munitions firing isn't what makes the K good.

So you answered the first question admirably, not the second.

I answered the second question just fine - nothing the Punisher has is what makes the K good, so looking to the K for inspiration isn't going to cut it, except maybe if you wanted to give it SLAM, and even that, that only really benefits Deathrain, and not as much as it does the K because the best use for it is turn>SLAM>turn>bomb, and DR doesn't really need the SLAM/turn bit to do the bomb bit. And you still don't get it to the same tier as Ks because Sabine helps them so much.

K wings are good because they can fire out of arc, and do shenanigans with bombs.

Punishers can't do either of those things except DR, who's the best of the bunch by far.

But even then, I don't think you want to make the Punisher the Imp K Wing. You want to make it the Punisher - but better.

For my money, you do that by making it able to fire more missiles and torps faster and more reliably. Don't increase its defence, decrease its cost and increase its punch. Buffing bombs is also a good plan, and the double bomb idea above is neat for that purpose.

If I were designing it to start off with I might have given it a 180 primary arc to represent how well missiles and torps home in some of the x-wing games, but that's a bigger change than they'd be likely to implement.

Looking over the past night's posts, it looks like there's quibbles on the title, but that Variable Munitions needs to go back to the drawing board.

I suggest changing variable loadout to be a little less forgiving and variable; maybe try something like this wording:

If you have a torpedo/missile/bomb equipped, you may equip an extra upgrade of the same type that costs equal or fewer points for free. At the start of the first round, you must discard one of these upgrades and all munitions tokens on that card.

Or, an alternative to Extra Munitions:

If you have a torpedo/missile/bomb equipped, you may equip an extra upgrade of the same type that costs equal or fewer points for free. You may not place munitions tokens on these upgrades.

That gives you a choice between two missiles or torps or bombs going into a match.

How does this look?

I would still worry a little about being able to tailor so specifically against the enemy, but that might be pretty good

I would still worry a little about being able to tailor so specifically against the enemy, but that might be pretty good

well hopefully the playtest "off-season" games can help with that.

Any thoughts on the Pilot? As said, I'm leaning toward dropping him to PS5

It might be a better ability for a mid-range PS pilot, yeah. The upper PS pilots shouldn't have too much trouble, relatively, in picking up the TLs they need. It does help with action economy, of course, so it works at either PS.