Sabine is so prevalent because bombs, particularly with Ion, are one of the few good tools against /x7 Defenders.

1) Perhaps, but they're even better against pretty much any other imperial fighter that used to be popular. Which leaves imperials with few (or no) good alternatives.

2) Ion is good vs defenders because it leaves them unable to get at least one of their tokens for at least one turn. That said, pure bomber lists don't care about tokens anyway. They rely on bypassing green dice entirely.

Sabine is so prevalent because bombs, particularly with Ion, are one of the few good tools against /x7 Defenders.

bombs are good v anything except for TLTs and Dash because those assholes tend to not fly towards you

Honestly they're not very good against anything that relies on sheer number of HPs (and possibly regen) rather than green dice to survive. I wouldn't want to fly a bomb list vs, say, good ol' Biggs + 3 B-wings list. They don't do terribly well vs ARCs either. And obviously lists such as double Ghosts + Y-wing are downright terrible matchups for them. Unfortunately nothing in the imperial fleet counters them very well.

You got enough damage to mow down some hitpoints, and if they got crap defense even a K's crummy pwt will wear em down if you fly well enouvh to avoid return fire

Only had no chance v torp scputs sporting 27 health and the ability to evaporate you in a round

Thet dont exist anymore it seems, despite rhe prevelence of mindlink on scum ships

I'm far from the first to say it but the problem is face rolling your way to the evades. I think literally the only thing that can stop it is ion. Certain pilots can screw with the tokens once they are there but that's very limited.

Bumped?

Stressed?

On or through a rock?

x7 cares not and it really should. As it is it rewards shoddy flying very nearly as much as it does good flying.

It's not quite "broken" in power but it's way too "easy and forgiving" on the player.

If you hadn't specifically said x7's I would have sworn you were talking about rebel regen. (roughly the same effect to be fair, only difference is if the defender wasn't shot at, it doesn't keep the token it generated)

Meh. Ive dealt with much worse in this game.

Bombs are just brutal against most Imperial lists. They might be one of the only things keeping Defenders in check, which is why I am perfectly fine with them. But as Lightrock mentions, they are even more brutal against the other Imperial options. Which gets us where we are now. Defenders outjoust any other Imperial ship, and with bombs creeping in, top players aren't going to consider most aces when x7 has more health, hits just as hard and can tank enough damage to not care that it can't arc dodge.

I mostly enjoy bombs, but man. You want to make agility pointless in this game, keep dropping upgrades that ignore it.

I guess that's all part of the pendulum swing though. Players start playing bombs, players stop playing aces. Players stop playing aces, so players stop playing as many bombs. Now that there aren't as many bombs? More aces...

Which just goes to show a lot of this game is won before you even get to an event. Its about analyzing the meta and determining what list you can take that has the fewest losing match ups and a good number of really good ones.

As good as defenders are right now, I think much of their current popularity in imperial lists is the result of lack of viable alternatives.

This. This. This.

I wish the TIE/d title would at leat be on par. It is great, but just not as good.

And this is my main issue, and proof to me that X7 went too far.

No. It's proof TIE/D didn't go far enough.

Should have allowed Manglers!

Oh god if TIE/D allowed Manglers you'd see Stele all over the place. I have seriously thought about running a no-title Stele with mangler and see how that plays out.

Or trip Deltas with 2 Manglers and 1 Tractor or Fletchette.

Personally i dont find x7 defenders to be that big of an issue. I have more of a problem with Ryad specifically than i do the title. x7 Vessery, Stele, or Deltas are just bulky enough to not go poof instantly, but they still go down and their offense isnt the greatest (still good dont get me wrong).

Oh god if TIE/D allowed Manglers you'd see Stele all over the place. I have seriously thought about running a no-title Stele with mangler and see how that plays out.

Or trip Deltas with 2 Manglers and 1 Tractor or Fletchette.

Personally i dont find x7 defenders to be that big of an issue. I have more of a problem with Ryad specifically than i do the title. x7 Vessery, Stele, or Deltas are just bulky enough to not go poof instantly, but they still go down and their offense isnt the greatest (still good dont get me wrong).

I do agree with this. Without Ryad you wouldn't have the PTL engine that then multiplies through Vessery. They'd be difficult to bring down but would move predictably and without action economy they wouldn't hit too hard.

I wish the TIE/d title would at leat be on par. It is great, but just not as good.

And this is my main issue, and proof to me that X7 went too far.

Tie/D is very, VERY strong. It makes the Defender a nasty piece. But x7 Is even MORE insane. So insane that doing TWO ATTACKS FOR 2 POINTS MORE can't compete with it. If x7 didn't exist, the Defender would still see healthy amount of use with Tie/D. But with /X7, nothing except the most stellar of pilots compete with it.

I think there's a bit of meta cloudiness here. I really like the D, but I don't think that the X7 being so good is what pushed it out of the meta, but that it is a stronger card (and maybe a necessary one) where you are going to be seeing cards like Zuckuss and large ships (which negate/ignore some of the effects on a ion or TB cannon). For example, if rebel regen were the dominant force, I think that TieD would be a much stronger card. I think it's even strong against X7s -- my record with Tie Ds is very good against those types of lists, but against Dengaroo and Bossk, they tend to melt quickly.

The problem is building cards that can hit a ship like Soontir Fel really hurts other cards that rely on agility but aren't Soontir Fel (or now X7s).

I agree that the meta does have an impact on /x7, but I think a key is even in its bad match-ups, x7 is still -2 points.

Alex what would you think if they both cost 0 points? In that case, both titles simply become a meta play, instead of one being a meta play and the other being a meta-whatever play for -2 points.

I think both at zero points would work just fine and then the choice really depends on whether you want offense or defense. With the X7 at -2, the Tie D is effectively an upgrade that costs two points plus the cannon, not really unlike the Scyk upgrade pre-buff.

As imperial main, i'm in total sadness right now. Everything that is imperial and good is called OP or NPE. x7 defenders, palp, inquisitor even. Phantom falls into this category too, regardless of not seing much play right now. Tie swarms are hard to play and not that good nowadays. Interceptors are too easy to kill. Bombers are simply not good by themselves and i dont find using bombs/ordnance fun. I really have no idea what to play and not to be hated. Most people i play with just think that x7 are autowin and just don't want to play against them, because they're the OP and unfun ship, same goes for inquisitor, palp... So annoying to be imperial. It seems that most of their good and fun ships are totally unfun to opponent and ruin their fun.

As imperial main, i'm in total sadness right now. Everything that is imperial and good is called OP or NPE. x7 defenders, palp, inquisitor even. Phantom falls into this category too, regardless of not seing much play right now. Tie swarms are hard to play and not that good nowadays. Interceptors are too easy to kill. Bombers are simply not good by themselves and i dont find using bombs/ordnance fun. I really have no idea what to play and not to be hated. Most people i play with just think that x7 are autowin and just don't want to play against them, because they're the OP and unfun ship, same goes for inquisitor, palp... So annoying to be imperial. It seems that most of their good and fun ships are totally unfun to opponent and ruin their fun.

As imperial main, i'm in total sadness right now. Everything that is imperial and good is called OP or NPE. x7 defenders, palp, inquisitor even. Phantom falls into this category too, regardless of not seing much play right now. Tie swarms are hard to play and not that good nowadays. Interceptors are too easy to kill. Bombers are simply not good by themselves and i dont find using bombs/ordnance fun. I really have no idea what to play and not to be hated. Most people i play with just think that x7 are autowin and just don't want to play against them, because they're the OP and unfun ship, same goes for inquisitor, palp... So annoying to be imperial. It seems that most of their good and fun ships are totally unfun to opponent and ruin their fun.

We're imperials man, we're supposed ​to be hated! (Also, imperials didn't even make it to the final table at the last two world championships so I don't know what people are complaining about).

As imperial main, i'm in total sadness right now. Everything that is imperial and good is called OP or NPE. x7 defenders, palp, inquisitor even. Phantom falls into this category too, regardless of not seing much play right now. Tie swarms are hard to play and not that good nowadays. Interceptors are too easy to kill. Bombers are simply not good by themselves and i dont find using bombs/ordnance fun. I really have no idea what to play and not to be hated. Most people i play with just think that x7 are autowin and just don't want to play against them, because they're the OP and unfun ship, same goes for inquisitor, palp... So annoying to be imperial. It seems that most of their good and fun ships are totally unfun to opponent and ruin their fun.

We're imperials man, we're supposed ​to be hated! (Also, imperials didn't even make it to the final table at the last two world championships so I don't know what people are complaining about).

Winning isn't much better than doing well.

The fact remains that Imperial aces and Defenders backed by Palpatine are so efficient that the ships that have nothing but their efficiency are not viable and won't be in the forseeable future. The only ships that you see are those that have been powercrept to a similar level (Attani and Crackshot and even here there is a bias towards ships that can rival imperials in PS or the squadrons phasing out) or counter them very specificaly (bombs and stuff).

I have no current problem with how TIE/Ds perform for the price outside of a few exceptions. The problem is that those exceptions are back breakers. I've had good competitive results playing TIE/Ds agaisnt a wide variety of things, but like any other AGI 3 ships with out a token stack, big shots that have mechanisms to ignore your evade results just shred them. It takes preparation, good flying, and a little luck to hang with squads like this, but one thing being a little off means your 40+ point ship is a goner. That's tough to stomach. When x7 makes your ship a lot cheaper and moves it from "on a timer" to "might live forever", it takes a certain amount of extra work to keep the TIE/D, work that dice can very easily just brush away.

As imperial main, i'm in total sadness right now. Everything that is imperial and good is called OP or NPE. x7 defenders, palp, inquisitor even. Phantom falls into this category too, regardless of not seing much play right now. Tie swarms are hard to play and not that good nowadays. Interceptors are too easy to kill. Bombers are simply not good by themselves and i dont find using bombs/ordnance fun. I really have no idea what to play and not to be hated. Most people i play with just think that x7 are autowin and just don't want to play against them, because they're the OP and unfun ship, same goes for inquisitor, palp... So annoying to be imperial. It seems that most of their good and fun ships are totally unfun to opponent and ruin their fun.

Ironic when here everyone is happy to see defenders and starts pumping homings into them or bombs, or both or TLT or just overwhelms them with concentrated fire from Fangs, etc

Defenders are so last summer ☻

My biggest gripe with x7 Defenders is that Agi 1 ships like B-wing would need 4 Attack with a free mod to efficiently trade dice, not to mention the dial...

My biggest gripe with x7 Defenders is that Agi 1 ships like B-wing would need 4 Attack with a free mod to efficiently trade dice, not to mention the dial...

Hehe, I am saying it all the time, lothal rebels are what the B-Wing should have been. Well, minus those 16 HP and a small point deduction accordingly to the reduced hp. ;-)

So, great thoughts on the current heartbeat of the Imperial fleet.....with Soontir fading, Vader being relegated to the b-team, the Punisher sucking wind as a viable ordinance carrier, TIE swarms hiding, TIE Bombers not quite able, and TIE Defenders being the only clear (but obviously glass-ceilinged) pick; what does the Imp pilot do? Hope the TIE SF has real hitting/avading power? Wait on the Striker? What?

TIE Defenders are hard to balance because they were the premier Superiority craft that took an even more overpowered ship and other Defenders to properly counter. It had to be nerfed more than once, and EU authors had to tone it down so it didn't destroy their mary sues.

I agree phasing out other pilots and forcing other stupidly powerful meta crushers to be made just to get more people to use them is sh*tty though. That's half the reason I don't actually buy 40k anymore. Now you're going to see more suck or more pop.

So, great thoughts on the current heartbeat of the Imperial fleet.....with Soontir fading, Vader being relegated to the b-team, the Punisher sucking wind as a viable ordinance carrier, TIE swarms hiding, TIE Bombers not quite able, and TIE Defenders being the only clear (but obviously glass-ceilinged) pick; what does the Imp pilot do? Hope the TIE SF has real hitting/avading power? Wait on the Striker? What?

RAC with Hotshot, Gunner, Vader, Predator and Ryad with Juke and MK2 seems to have a lot of success, clearing tokens with RAC like a boss seems to be a wonderful easy fat turret approach. Ace die to Vader. Scarry list.

Maybe the new Shuttle will have a good big ship dial like the Scum and Rebs have...

So, great thoughts on the current heartbeat of the Imperial fleet.....with Soontir fading, Vader being relegated to the b-team, the Punisher sucking wind as a viable ordinance carrier, TIE swarms hiding, TIE Bombers not quite able, and TIE Defenders being the only clear (but obviously glass-ceilinged) pick; what does the Imp pilot do? Hope the TIE SF has real hitting/avading power? Wait on the Striker? What?

I am not sure Soontir is a gonna yet. The advantage Defenders have is that they are more forgiving of mistakes and easier to play. In the hands of a top level player, I think Soontir is still a pilot to be feared provided the Imp player is good at judging opponents dials and using Soontirs post-maneuver positioning to best effect.

Bombers have some legs and have simply been overshadowed by Defenders. Deathfire with LRS, Homing Missiles, EMs and your choice if Cluster Mines or Conner Nets is surprisingly powerful and flexible. Yes he is a little squishy but I can normally get to fire quite a bit of his ordnance before he goes down and the attention he attracts really takes the heat off the Defenders.