I've said before, they should have swapped the point cost of the two titles.

I'm far from the first to say it but the problem is face rolling your way to the evades. I think literally the only thing that can stop it is ion. Certain pilots can screw with the tokens once they are there but that's very limited.

Bumped?

Stressed?

On or through a rock?

x7 cares not and it really should. As it is it rewards shoddy flying very nearly as much as it does good flying.

It's not quite "broken" in power but it's way too "easy and forgiving" on the player.

I think it would have been better if it was a free Evade action. As it stands it is a little too good and easy (doesn't stop me fielding them though ).

Ehh...that means not only do they get their evade on a bump, they can PTL off of it. Ryad would be even more annoying.

The phrasing I'd've chosen, after some discussion this weekend, would have been:

During your Perform Action step if you executed a 3, 4, or 5 speed manoeuvre this round, you may perform a free evade action.

There, now it's not stressproof or bump proof - bumping makes you skip your perform action step so it can't trigger, and it's an action so stress stops it. That I think would alleviate a decent chunk of the issues.

IMO, due to snowball effect, people is overreacting to defenders.

Also, they tend to conveniently forget that even with the -2 discount, defenders are still the most expensive small ship.

Ship's price after all, is the quantification of balance. If the -arguably- better small ship, also has the higher cost, one would think everything is working as intended.

IMO, due to snowball effect, people is overreacting to defenders.

Also, they tend to conveniently forget that even with the -2 discount, defenders are still the most expensive small ship.

Ship's price after all, is the quantification of balance. If the -arguably- better small ship, also has the higher cost, one would think everything is working as intended.

Add soontir fel is 35 points with upgrades, Jax is 34. PTL-Ryad comes at 36, while x7 Vessery comes usually at 35 and deltas at 28. The thing is, imperial two ship lists with Palp work with x7 defenders just as fine as they do with interceptors. Bringing defenders seems still not the way to win tourneys for the most part as people bring the right tools to crack them, but right now you have to account for those defenders just as much as you had to do before for uboots.

IMO, due to snowball effect, people is overreacting to defenders.

Also, they tend to conveniently forget that even with the -2 discount, defenders are still the most expensive small ship.

Ship's price after all, is the quantification of balance. If the -arguably- better small ship, also has the higher cost, one would think everything is working as intended.

Add soontir fel is 35 points with upgrades, Jax is 34. PTL-Ryad comes at 36, while x7 Vessery comes usually at 35. The thing is, imperial two ship lists with Palp work with x7 defenders just as fine as they do with interceptors.

Better. A Defender can survive a round of good focus fire with some bad blanks. A squint explodes.

IMO, due to snowball effect, people is overreacting to defenders.

Also, they tend to conveniently forget that even with the -2 discount, defenders are still the most expensive small ship.

Ship's price after all, is the quantification of balance. If the -arguably- better small ship, also has the higher cost, one would think everything is working as intended.

Add soontir fel is 35 points with upgrades, Jax is 34. PTL-Ryad comes at 36, while x7 Vessery comes usually at 35. The thing is, imperial two ship lists with Palp work with x7 defenders just as fine as they do with interceptors.

Better. A Defender can survive a round of good focus fire with some bad blanks. A squint explodes.

Blank, Blank, Eye and Blank, Blank, Eye translates on Soontir to Evade, Evade, Evade and Evade, Evade Evade Bank. Autothruster, Palp and Double Focus + Evade are quite solid.to prevent even 2 3-hit attacks of doing any damage.

Meanwhile the low ps and predictable dial makes it easy for something like Old Teroch to steal all tokens and transform that a delta into a debris cloud in one turn.

So am not sure if I would say better, defenders really are a piece of cake with fangs and manaroo.

IMO, due to snowball effect, people is overreacting to defenders.

Also, they tend to conveniently forget that even with the -2 discount, defenders are still the most expensive small ship.

Ship's price after all, is the quantification of balance. If the -arguably- better small ship, also has the higher cost, one would think everything is working as intended.

Add soontir fel is 35 points with upgrades, Jax is 34. PTL-Ryad comes at 36, while x7 Vessery comes usually at 35. The thing is, imperial two ship lists with Palp work with x7 defenders just as fine as they do with interceptors.

Better. A Defender can survive a round of good focus fire with some bad blanks. A squint explodes.

Blank, Blank, Eye and Blank, Blank, Eye translates on Soontir to Evade, Evade, Evade and Evade, Evade Evade Bank. Autothruster, Palp and Double Focus + Evade are quite solid.to prevent even 2 3-hit attacks of doing any damage.

Meanwhile the low ps and predictable dial makes it easy for something like Old Teroch to steal all tokens and transform that a delta into a debris cloud in one turn.

So am not sure if I would say better, defenders really are a piece of cake with fangs and manaroo.

Not if you get caught short at the wrong range. If both shots are range 2 in arc he's in a lot more trouble. If any of them are range 1 in arc...

Soontir is better in isolation. I'd firmly argue that defenders are better in practice, because they can take the occasional mistake without exploding.

Another x7 nerf thread, huh? Time to beat up on another dead horse! *grabs bat*

But in all seriousness, x7's are fine. They are in no way severely warping the meta except for being gatekeepers. If it wasn't x7's, it would be something else gatekeeping, so it's really not a big deal. Btw, the same thing that kills x7's kills regen: focus fire. Their tokens are only going to get so far if they have multiple high-quality attacks incoming. X7's also have mid-range PS, so they aren't arc-dodging anything. The Team Covenant interview really nailed it. They do one thing really well: being tough to kill, but that's really the only big trick they have.

The difference between /x7 Defenders and a typical Fel is that ATs+SD provide defense against every shot (subject to range/arc restrictions of course). This means that many lists simply cannot burn through Fel's defenses and Palpy is there to fix the odd really bad agility roll.

Defenders have twice Fel's health but no ATs and it makes a significant difference. Their defenses are good but finite meaning focused fire can generally burn through them. They are strong and tough but for the points they should be. I don't think they are quite as frustrating to play against as Palp+Fel+Inqy.

Another x7 nerf thread, huh? Time to beat up on another dead horse! *grabs bat*

But in all seriousness, x7's are fine. They are in no way severely warping the meta except for being gatekeepers. If it wasn't x7's, it would be something else gatekeeping, so it's really not a big deal. Btw, the same thing that kills x7's kills regen: focus fire. Their tokens are only going to get so far if they have multiple high-quality attacks incoming. X7's also have mid-range PS, so they aren't arc-dodging anything. The Team Covenant interview really nailed it. They do one thing really well: being tough to kill, but that's really the only big trick they have.

It's not a nerf thread; it's a thread about ship design and game balance. I have a issue with it because it it a double edged sword. If you buff the most expensive Imp small ship so it is worth the points, it trumps pretty much all other Imp ships and make it the easy pick to add or make a squad with. This is logical. However, then these ships flood the mats and leave lots of other ships in the foam, so-to-speak.

As an aside, it seems all the stress mechanics and cards have been specifically designed to nerf the Empire's bread and butter to this point: amazing flying, hard-hitting, glass cannons. Nerfing these fun glass-cannons is a bad plan, implemented rather poorly (my uneducated opinion). Whatever you might think about these recent mechanics, I think everyone has to see that these mechanics have created an even greater draw for the Imp pilot to fly Defenders.

Back to the thread at-hand, I really don't mind that the Empire got a previously high-potential but overpriced ship 'fixed.' It's now not only powerful, but has made top tables all over the world. To reiterate, my thread is boils down to this: my fear is that there is a dark side (pardon the pun) to the Defender X7, as I believe it is curbing design space for the Empire at the same time that the beloved TIE swarm and Interceptors are being pushed out.

Yeah, I know, calm down and get some tea.... I think I shall. Cheers!

I think the solution is to flip the costs of /x7 and /D. Would shave the edge off /x7 a little and also make /D a valid option, but TIE Defenders with /D aren't bulletproof. That would both bring other ships back into the mix who can't currently hurt /x7, and also reduce the need for jaw-dropping big hits that hurt /x7 and are wiping the other Imperial ships entirely.

IMO, due to snowball effect, people is overreacting to defenders.

Also, they tend to conveniently forget that even with the -2 discount, defenders are still the most expensive small ship.

Ship's price after all, is the quantification of balance. If the -arguably- better small ship, also has the higher cost, one would think everything is working as intended.

Add soontir fel is 35 points with upgrades, Jax is 34. PTL-Ryad comes at 36, while x7 Vessery comes usually at 35. The thing is, imperial two ship lists with Palp work with x7 defenders just as fine as they do with interceptors.

Better. A Defender can survive a round of good focus fire with some bad blanks. A squint explodes.

Blank, Blank, Eye and Blank, Blank, Eye translates on Soontir to Evade, Evade, Evade and Evade, Evade Evade Bank. Autothruster, Palp and Double Focus + Evade are quite solid.to prevent even 2 3-hit attacks of doing any damage.

Meanwhile the low ps and predictable dial makes it easy for something like Old Teroch to steal all tokens and transform that a delta into a debris cloud in one turn.

So am not sure if I would say better, defenders really are a piece of cake with fangs and manaroo.

Not if you get caught short at the wrong range. If both shots are range 2 in arc he's in a lot more trouble. If any of them are range 1 in arc...

Soontir is better in isolation. I'd firmly argue that defenders are better in practice, because they can take the occasional mistake without exploding.

If you get caught short at the wrong range you can either boost out of arc and into range 1 or roll back into R3 usually. Which will admittle will take away one focus token from you. ;-)

It is really is a very rare case to get caught in arc, at range 2, still have actions for tokens and not being able to get into a better position. Now getting blocked means you have no actions, often are indeed in range 2 … that is the real moment those defenders shine as they still have their evade token

I think the solution is to flip the costs of /x7 and /D. Would shave the edge off /x7 a little and also make /D a valid option, but TIE Defenders with /D aren't bulletproof. That would both bring other ships back into the mix who can't currently hurt /x7, and also reduce the need for jaw-dropping big hits that hurt /x7 and are wiping the other Imperial ships entirely.

That's the big thing, thinking about it.

A defender can tank a 5-result attack successfully. Soontir has to get a perfect roll to do so, and 5-result attacks aren't that uncommon any more.

I think the solution is to flip the costs of /x7 and /D. Would shave the edge off /x7 a little and also make /D a valid option, but TIE Defenders with /D aren't bulletproof. That would both bring other ships back into the mix who can't currently hurt /x7, and also reduce the need for jaw-dropping big hits that hurt /x7 and are wiping the other Imperial ships entirely.

That's the big thing, thinking about it.

A defender can tank a 5-result attack successfully. Soontir has to get a perfect roll to do so, and 5-result attacks aren't that uncommon any more.

Soontir needs an average role to just take one or even zero damage. A two blanks, an eye and an evade is already negating 5 hit attack completely. Thanks to autothruster and Palpatine.

I think the solution is to flip the costs of /x7 and /D. Would shave the edge off /x7 a little and also make /D a valid option, but TIE Defenders with /D aren't bulletproof. That would both bring other ships back into the mix who can't currently hurt /x7, and also reduce the need for jaw-dropping big hits that hurt /x7 and are wiping the other Imperial ships entirely.

That's the big thing, thinking about it.

A defender can tank a 5-result attack successfully. Soontir has to get a perfect roll to do so, and 5-result attacks aren't that uncommon any more.

Soontir needs an average role to just take one or even zero damage. A two blanks, an eye and an evade is already negating 5 hit attack completely. Thanks to autothruster and Palpatine.

If you're taking a 5-hit shot you're likely not getting autothrusters or not getting an evade token (homing missile) or both. I don't think there's a way to do it that's not ordnance (and even then, you have to get an extra die from somewhere, typically Miranda or N'Dru) or range 1, barring some very rarely-used upgrades.

And yes, if you're taking that hit, you screwed up or got outplayed.

But screw-ups happen, as does getting outplayed. And defenders are more resilient to both.

Or to put it another way, if Soontir was still that good, he'd be seeing a lot more play. But he's not. Because a: defenders are better in the current meta and b: the things that counter defenders, counter soontir a lot harder.

I wish the TIE/d title would at leat be on par. It is great, but just not as good.

And this is my main issue, and proof to me that X7 went too far.

Tie/D is very, VERY strong. It makes the Defender a nasty piece. But x7 Is even MORE insane. So insane that doing TWO ATTACKS FOR 2 POINTS MORE can't compete with it. If x7 didn't exist, the Defender would still see healthy amount of use with Tie/D. But with /X7, nothing except the most stellar of pilots compete with it.

I think there's a bit of meta cloudiness here. I really like the D, but I don't think that the X7 being so good is what pushed it out of the meta, but that it is a stronger card (and maybe a necessary one) where you are going to be seeing cards like Zuckuss and large ships (which negate/ignore some of the effects on a ion or TB cannon). For example, if rebel regen were the dominant force, I think that TieD would be a much stronger card. I think it's even strong against X7s -- my record with Tie Ds is very good against those types of lists, but against Dengaroo and Bossk, they tend to melt quickly.

The problem is building cards that can hit a ship like Soontir Fel really hurts other cards that rely on agility but aren't Soontir Fel (or now X7s).

I agree that the meta does have an impact on /x7, but I think a key is even in its bad match-ups, x7 is still -2 points.

Alex what would you think if they both cost 0 points? In that case, both titles simply become a meta play, instead of one being a meta play and the other being a meta-whatever play for -2 points.

Triple Scouts pushed things out of the meta on the basis that they couldn't survive long enough to deliver their points cost in value. Defenders are pushing things out of the meta on the basis that they can't hit hard enough to deliver their points cost in value.

If you bought 2 Rookie Pilots you're spending ~33% more Ryad but even with two ships firing at her you'll do ~50% of the damage to her that she does back to you and she gets to fire first and she gets to chase you with her K-turns while you have to either spend a turn stressed or reveal your back to turn around. In a duel between those two squads Ryad will win comfortably pretty much every time, despite costing fewer points, because her defensive cost efficiency is off the charts.

I agree that the meta does have an impact on /x7, but I think a key is even in its bad match-ups. x7 is still -2 points.

Alex what would you think if they both cost 0 points? In that case, both titles simply become a meta play, instead of one being a meta play and the other being a meta-whatever play for -2 points.

You would still only see /x7. TIE/D isn't really 0 points because it requires investment in the cannon that you plan on using, and the second shot that you're getting is likely to be unmodified and not really do too much damage. Compared to an /x7 Defender your /D would be top-heavy with more points cost piled onto less survivability to deliver a minor increase in damage output.

You MAY see Vessery played with a Tractor Beam at that cost, but really you need /D to subsidise the cannon that you're paying for by giving you a cost reduction. It would also make /x7 cost 2pts by proxy, as you could always take a /D Defender for -2 and then not equip a cannon.

They got the costs on the titles the wrong way around. I'd rather see people playing TIE/D because you can destroy them - they're an aggressive risk of a ship, while /x7 is a defensive sure bet.

I think my X7 title would be -2 points and add evade to the action bar.

I think my X7 title would be -2 points and add evade to the action bar.

That's not radical enough.

I like what they're doing with the titles - they're trying to add some unique characteristics to the ships and how they fly, rather than just try and balance their points cost. /x7 Defenders fly differently because they need to go fast, just like the two TIE Advanced/Prototype titles focus on target locks in different ways while most Imperial fighters don't even have target lock as an option.

I really like the way /x7 changes how Defenders behave and the patterns of how they fly, I just think they got the balance of power between the two different styles of Defender very lopsided.

I think the solution is to flip the costs of /x7 and /D. Would shave the edge off /x7 a little and also make /D a valid option, but TIE Defenders with /D aren't bulletproof. That would both bring other ships back into the mix who can't currently hurt /x7, and also reduce the need for jaw-dropping big hits that hurt /x7 and are wiping the other Imperial ships entirely.

That's the big thing, thinking about it.

A defender can tank a 5-result attack successfully. Soontir has to get a perfect roll to do so, and 5-result attacks aren't that uncommon any more.

Soontir needs an average role to just take one or even zero damage. A two blanks, an eye and an evade is already negating 5 hit attack completely. Thanks to autothruster and Palpatine.

If you're taking a 5-hit shot you're likely not getting autothrusters or not getting an evade token (homing missile) or both. I don't think there's a way to do it that's not ordnance (and even then, you have to get an extra die from somewhere, typically Miranda or N'Dru) or range 1, barring some very rarely-used upgrades.

And yes, if you're taking that hit, you screwed up or got outplayed.

But screw-ups happen, as does getting outplayed. And defenders are more resilient to both.

Or to put it another way, if Soontir was still that good, he'd be seeing a lot more play. But he's not. Because a: defenders are better in the current meta and b: the things that counter defenders, counter soontir a lot harder.

Any 4 attack ship with jan ors support will yield 5 hit attacks. Which happens surprisingly often in my local meta as the stramm, lothal, ors list is pretty popular. Eats Soontir for breakfast thanks to the stresshog, which brings us to the real deal for defenders: They all not just pop against stress hog and other sources of stress. The removal of Jumpmaster alpha strike from the game opens up the game for other alpha strike sources, but as well for old rebel regen and rebel control list. And both list types kill Soontir, but are still getting reasonably often killed by the efficiency of defenders … which leads us to lists with alpha strike against defenders like Miranda with Homing missiles and the new scum alpha strike lists and other lists which can deal with defenders just fine like scum aces.

The meta changed drastically based on the removal of the uboot wolfpacks (j5k) alpha strike lists.

The only list which really cares little about all the changes is Dengaroo, everything else gets warped by the removal of deadeye on large ships and the new efficiency king in form of defenders ^-^

Well, technical defenders are actually not king, but on a good second place behind Dengaroo, hail to the king baby. ;-)

As good as defenders are right now, I think much of their current popularity in imperial lists is the result of lack of viable alternatives. The one massive blow to the imperial glass cannon archetype that kinda slipped under the radar was the introduction of Sabine crew. The u-boat madness kept rebel bombers (and rebels in general) away from the top tables for a while, so the effect of Sabine wasn't immediately apparent. Now that the u-boats are gone it seems that lists with at least one Sabine-crewed K-wing make up anything between 30-50% of rebel lists (at least in my area). In a regional sized tournament you've got a very decent chance of running into such a list at least once or twice. Bomber K-wings are very unpleasant even to the defenders but at least they can survive one or two bombing runs and win anyway. Interceptors just disappear before they even get a chance to roll their green dice once. Such a matchup is about as close to auto-lose for the imperial player as it gets.

Even though I kinda got bored with defenders, I don't really feel like flying Soontir or Inquisitor anymore. And I used to love them in the past. I'm just too afraid that an unlucky pairing will knock me out of the tournament and if you feel that your list has to rely on luck in drawing the right opponents to be successful, you know there's something seriously wrong with it. That's also why I'm not that excited about Striker (I guess it's cheaper but at 4 HP it won't last long against bombs either). Put it simply, Defenders and TIE/sf are the only imperial fighters kinda capable of surviving the Sabine's fireworks. And of those 2, Defender is far more likely to do well against other opponents as well. Imperials don't really have any viable large ship lists either - the best they can get is a decimator coupled with a fighter. And unfortunately such lists aren't that good vs bomber lists either, since those typically include Miranda - possibly the worst rebel opponent for a decimator.

I'm not sure what Empire needs right now. I don't feel an imperial B-wing is the answer considering how poorly the rebel original is doing. On the other hand until imperials get some competitive high-hp fighters, defenders are simply the best bet they have for an all-comers list that might carry them all the way to the finals of large tournaments.

Sabine is so prevalent because bombs, particularly with Ion, are one of the few good tools against /x7 Defenders.