I've found that making them re-roll their greens in some way usually messes them up. And focus fire as always.

Also, most people seem to be running the mid-PS pilots, with MAYBE Vessery at PS8. So out-PS'ing them can also work. Making them use tokens they'd rather not to stay alive.

I faced 2 Vessery/Ryad/Omega Leader lists and a Vessery/Inquisitor/Palpmoblie list at my last tourney and I beat all 3. I had Dengar and Asajj, both with abilities to make the enemy re-roll greens (R4-B11 and Zuckuss) and it made them melt. I killed a focus/evade Vessery in one round of shooting due to Dengar's double tap and Asajj all focusing on him and making him re-roll.

Can you give us a full list? Sounds like a fun/interesting one

Sure thing. A bunch of people asked for it at the event as I went 5-1, with my loss being the final round. I was surprised I did as well as I did. But coming up against 3 lists in a row that hated my green dice shenanigans was pretty lucky.

Dengar: R4-B11, Lone Wolf, K4 Security Droid, Glitterstim, Punishing One

Asajj: Veteran Instincts, Zuckuss, Glitterstim x2, Gyroscopic Targeting

I called it Dengar's Mistress

Dice calc gives me 3.9 and 2.6 average damage. I leave you with that ;-)

people love to overreact as a rule

there's nothing "Terrifying" about Defenders after the horrorshow that was torp scouts. They're just, as their stat-line would suggest, incredibly well rounded and incredibly difficult to kill

but nothing you can't handle if you build a proper list, i.e one with a lot of dice modifiers

I disagree with that. A fully modified 3 dice attack only has a 5.3% chance of doing a single point of damage at R2. Ordnance attacks can be useful for pushing damage through, but there's unlikely to be enough of an alpha strike to take one off of the board.

Yeah, because a simple double homing missile scum list does not take a defender of the board before it can even fire once. ;-)

Two times 4 Hits without evades + zuckuss or a blocked focus on top big enough to kill a defender. And look, the commonwealth defenders are reduced to a single threat list in one turn. ;-)

1) Homing missiles aren't 3 dice attacks

2) Let's go through those probabilities shall we? We're saying that we're going to do 6 damage from 8 dice. For the moment, let's assume that you have LRS and can take a TL+F for the attack.

So, first off, we have to roll at least 7 hits from 8 TL+F dice. This is a 73.6% chance, not a bad start assuming you have the TL+F (and no GC). Note for argument sake, if you have GC+deadeye, you're looking at a 88.6% of rolling at least 5 hits (and then converting 2 to hits via GC). Heck, for math's sake, the GC variant is more successful, so let's start at 88.6%. Not too bad of a starting position. Note you need 7 because your opponent is guaranteed at least 1 evade via Palp.

But it's not quite as simple as rolling >5 between 2 attacks. Rolling 4 on one, and 1 on the other only nets 6 total positive results. So let's look at it as two attacks of rolling 3 and 2 hits, plus GC to make it 4 and 3. Yes, I realize it's possible to get 4/4 - we'll look at that as well. You have a 74% of rolling 3 or 4 hits, and a 21% of rolling 2 hits, for a combined likelyhood of getting 7 hits of 31.8%. Note the x2 multiplier since we presumably don't care if it's 3 -> 4 or 4 -> 3.

So from there, your opponent needs to blank out on all 3 dice for the non-Zuckuss attack. That's 5% of a chance. The Zuckuss assisted attack (though I have to say, I've never seen Zuckuss on a missile carrier, but let's ignore that for a moment) has a bit of a better chance of blanking out. You can roll 3 blanks naturally at 5%, or roll 2 blanks, reroll the 3rd into a blank at 10%, roll 1 blank reroll into 3 blanks at 6%, or roll 3 evades rerolled into blanks at 1%, for a total triple blank probability of 22%.

So, method 1 of killing a Defender is to roll a total of 7 hits vs. his 1 evade (post Palp) for a kill percentage of .35%. But wait, it gets better. Method 2 of killing a Defender is to roll 8 hits vs. his 2 evades (post Palp)... Let's look at that.

Getting 2 4 hit HM with F+GC happens 55% of the time. We calculated the probability of 0 evades total above. But you can also have 1 from the non-Z roll (26%) coupled with 0 from Z (22%), or 1 from Z coupled (42%) with 0 from non-Z (5%).

1 naturally rerolled into 1 = 16%

2 naturally rerolled into 1 = 20%

3 naturally rerolled into 1 = 6%

Total = 42%

So, your opponent has a 9% chance of rolling 1 or fewer evades. Coupled with your 55% of rolling 8 hits, and you only have a 5% chance of killing him like that.

So, add the two methods together, and 2 HM attacks, backed by GC, Focuses, and Zuckuss have a 5.3% chance of killing a Defender.

Ugh ... math, again .

What r u trying to proof ?

Do u calculate all this during a game ?

Dice calc gives me 3.9 and 2.6 average damage. I leave you with that ;-)

Well, that is assuming no defensive focus and no Emperor (it would be 3.6 and 2.9 btw, though total damage remains the same). Taking those things into account, it gives 1.9 average damage on the first attack (Zuckuss(3) + Emperor + defensive focus) and then 2.9 in the second one. Also, the assumption of homing missiles with both a focus token and guidance chips is fairly generous of Khyros to begin with.

Dice calc gives me 3.9 and 2.6 average damage. I leave you with that ;-)

Well, that is assuming no defensive focus and no Emperor (it would be 3.6 and 2.9 btw, though total damage remains the same). Taking those things into account, it gives 1.9 average damage on the first attack (Zuckuss(3) + Emperor + defensive focus) and then 2.9 in the second one. Also, the assumption of homing missiles with both a focus token and guidance chips is fairly generous of Khyros to begin with.

Nope.

Just trying to wrap my head around how you get 3.9 average damage from a 4 dice attack versus 3 agility backed by the Emperor .

This is a case where I think you'd be much better off if you played the opposing ship in question:

I play Defenders and Palp Defenders, though usually not Vessery Ryad.

Let me tell you what Defenders cannot do well:

1. High level arc dodging.

2. Hell they can't even really do good range control, due to needing to move fast.

3. Do short speed moves if they will be shot at back.

4. Avoid being blocked.

Next:

Their damage is actually mediocre and average: Consistent over a long time, but in general, 9 red dice with some mods. That's pretty poor.

They give up PS OR repositioning ability.

They have extremely poor range control.

They gain exceptionally high defense, but still falters to focus fire.

When you think about it that way, they're a lot worse than they seem. Especially firepower wise.

You can do it OP. You can beat em. =) Take suggestions from the posters and mix with these things I tell you.

I have had good luck with Old Teroch against Ryad and Vessery. I have been running a mindlink list of Old Teroch, Zuckess, and Serissu with HLC. Strip the tokens and then shoot all three before the defenders fire. I don't really plan to use Serissu ability,just his high PS, if the ability triggers it's a bonus. Not a great list... but fun, and if you can fly Old Teroch properly it will kill defenders. I am sure Fenn or Talonbane would work as well, but I like the few more hull and shield on Zuckess and the 4 dice of HLC.

Ugh ... math, again .

What r u trying to proof ?

Do u calculate all this during a game ?

Just that your statement of 2 Homing Missiles = Dead Defender is way off basis.

I made the comment that a fully modified 3 dice attack isn't worth much at all against Defenders, triggering your comment that 2 Homing Missiles + Zuckuss = Dead Defender. I overlooked the missile + Zuckuss statment and analyzed your assertion, and came to the conclusion that 19 out of 20 times, that is not the case. I am not debating that Homing Missiles don't hurt Defenders, or that two can't be devestating.

My very first post in this thread discusses how I handle Defenders. I use Kanan's primary weapon to strip the tricks, a 4 dice TL+F attack is sadly not enough to reliably do damage on a Defender, even at R2 - Assuming I get all 4 hits (which is only a 58.6%), there is only a 9.4% chance of doing damage on a F+E+Palp Defender. But that's okay since I can follow that up with two TL+F TLT shots in the end phase, likely pushing 2 damage through. Meanwhile, the Palpmobile is out of play, and the two defenders are forced to shoot with reduced dice 2v3 onto Biggs. And yes, I realize I just went through 5 focus tokens in this scenario, and that it's not feasible to get that many. Typically it comes down to one of the attacks being not fully modified with TL+F, but even 2 hits from the TLT is typically enough to push a damage through on a tokenless defender (68.4% chance).

And this is all ignoring any damage that Biggs might do. I don't rely on Biggs to do anything besides get shot at, and on occasion stress someone though, so I never consider him when it comes to attacking.

And yes, I do do math during games. While I won't come up with straight up %, I'll often analyze the situation to determine what's the better shot. For example, if the Palpmobile is dead, and I have 2 focuses and a TL on a 1 shield Ryad at R3 through a rock, or I have a full health Inquisitor sitting in arc at R2... Who do I shoot and why? Do I shoot the primary or the TLT?

Without running numbers, my gut tells me to take the shot on Inq. I have to assume that my opponent is going to always have F+E on both of them from now on, and neither is particularly more threatening to me than the other, but Inq currently does not have AT activated, and that is a golden opportunity. Without Palp, there's a chance of me killing him, and there's an even better chance of me bringing him within 1 hull (which is what I estimate as the most common result of 4 TLT shots on a F+E+AT target).

Does Math back up my gut? Well, I'm going to slouch and use the X Wing Calculator for this analysis. If I stick with the Defender, I have an expected damage of .54 from the primary, and a 75% to stripe E, and 67% to strip F, but let's just assume they're both stripped. Then with the TLT I have a 1.3 expected damage, for a total of 1.8 expected damage.

Meanwhile, if I attacked Inq, the primary has an expected damage of .53, and the TLT (now with a TL) of 1.54, totaling 2.07 damage. Which would you prefer to do? Bring the Defender down to 2 hull, or bring Inq down to 2 hull? I would argue that Inq is more important because it's harder to get the non-AT shot on him, but that's another level of math that I don't really feel like going into at this time.

Crack shot ion canon m3a I know sounds crazy... But once it lands good bye defender next turn.

I've found that making them re-roll their greens in some way usually messes them up. And focus fire as always.

Also, most people seem to be running the mid-PS pilots, with MAYBE Vessery at PS8. So out-PS'ing them can also work. Making them use tokens they'd rather not to stay alive.

I faced 2 Vessery/Ryad/Omega Leader lists and a Vessery/Inquisitor/Palpmoblie list at my last tourney and I beat all 3. I had Dengar and Asajj, both with abilities to make the enemy re-roll greens (R4-B11 and Zuckuss) and it made them melt. I killed a focus/evade Vessery in one round of shooting due to Dengar's double tap and Asajj all focusing on him and making him re-roll.

OP: I want to fly small-based jousty stuff, like my Rebel T70s, is there anything I can do to beat Palp Defenders?

YOU: Yea, fly two large-based scum turret ships that force green re-rolls.

Thanks!

Whisper is solid vs x7s, if you're into Imperials She is "basically" a jouster anyways, hehe.

Kill them with fire

people love to overreact as a rule

there's nothing "Terrifying" about Defenders after the horrorshow that was torp scouts. They're just, as their stat-line would suggest, incredibly well rounded and incredibly difficult to kill

but nothing you can't handle if you build a proper list, i.e one with a lot of dice modifiers

I disagree with that. A fully modified 3 dice attack only has a 5.3% chance of doing a single point of damage at R2. Ordnance attacks can be useful for pushing damage through, but there's unlikely to be enough of an alpha strike to take one off of the board.

Yeah, because a simple double homing missile scum list does not take a defender of the board before it can even fire once. ;-)

Two times 4 Hits without evades + zuckuss or a blocked focus on top big enough to kill a defender. And look, the commonwealth defenders are reduced to a single threat list in one turn. ;-)

1) Homing missiles aren't 3 dice attacks

2) Let's go through those probabilities shall we? We're saying that we're going to do 6 damage from 8 dice. For the moment, let's assume that you have LRS and can take a TL+F for the attack.

So, first off, we have to roll at least 7 hits from 8 TL+F dice. This is a 73.6% chance, not a bad start assuming you have the TL+F (and no GC). Note for argument sake, if you have GC+deadeye, you're looking at a 88.6% of rolling at least 5 hits (and then converting 2 to hits via GC). Heck, for math's sake, the GC variant is more successful, so let's start at 88.6%. Not too bad of a starting position. Note you need 7 because your opponent is guaranteed at least 1 evade via Palp.

But it's not quite as simple as rolling >5 between 2 attacks. Rolling 4 on one, and 1 on the other only nets 6 total positive results. So let's look at it as two attacks of rolling 3 and 2 hits, plus GC to make it 4 and 3. Yes, I realize it's possible to get 4/4 - we'll look at that as well. You have a 74% of rolling 3 or 4 hits, and a 21% of rolling 2 hits, for a combined likelyhood of getting 7 hits of 31.8%. Note the x2 multiplier since we presumably don't care if it's 3 -> 4 or 4 -> 3.

So from there, your opponent needs to blank out on all 3 dice for the non-Zuckuss attack. That's 5% of a chance. The Zuckuss assisted attack (though I have to say, I've never seen Zuckuss on a missile carrier, but let's ignore that for a moment) has a bit of a better chance of blanking out. You can roll 3 blanks naturally at 5%, or roll 2 blanks, reroll the 3rd into a blank at 10%, roll 1 blank reroll into 3 blanks at 6%, or roll 3 evades rerolled into blanks at 1%, for a total triple blank probability of 22%.

So, method 1 of killing a Defender is to roll a total of 7 hits vs. his 1 evade (post Palp) for a kill percentage of .35%. But wait, it gets better. Method 2 of killing a Defender is to roll 8 hits vs. his 2 evades (post Palp)... Let's look at that.

Getting 2 4 hit HM with F+GC happens 55% of the time. We calculated the probability of 0 evades total above. But you can also have 1 from the non-Z roll (26%) coupled with 0 from Z (22%), or 1 from Z coupled (42%) with 0 from non-Z (5%).

1 naturally rerolled into 1 = 16%

2 naturally rerolled into 1 = 20%

3 naturally rerolled into 1 = 6%

Total = 42%

So, your opponent has a 9% chance of rolling 1 or fewer evades. Coupled with your 55% of rolling 8 hits, and you only have a 5% chance of killing him like that.

So, add the two methods together, and 2 HM attacks, backed by GC, Focuses, and Zuckuss have a 5.3% chance of killing a Defender.

Ugh ... math, again .

What r u trying to proof ?

Do u calculate all this during a game ?

According to a stats expert i heard on a podcast recently there is a 200% chance.

Of something.

ive had some dificulty with defenders, what seems to work best for me is arc dogers (i admit that practicly all i play) such as Fel + Vader + Phenor, phantoms ive found also work well

I think BBBBZ has got a fair chance to stomp the Defenders. It might take a while to chew through these tokens, but you have got enough hitpoints and red dice to get the job done.

4 BWings with Fire Control System might work too.

A swarm of T70 might get into trouble as soon as the k-turns begin, because Defenders will be fully modded while the XWings are just stressed.

OP: I want to fly small-based jousty stuff, like my Rebel T70s, is there anything I can do to beat Palp Defenders?

All right, I'll play ball. To a certain extent it depends on which Defender pilots your are facing. I am guessing you are facing the Vessery/Ryad tag-team backed up by OGP Palp.

Vessery's ability depends on someone painting target's for him and in this list, that is usually going to be Ryad. He can close with the OGP but that risks exposing Palp to fire. Also he tops out at PS6.

First order of the day is to try and strip a target lock or two since that will reduce both Ryad and Vess's action economy. You like T70s so the Black One title is an obvious choice. I normally like Regen-Poe but against defenders I would be tempted to go BB-8 Poe with PTL and Sensor Clusters. That means you can BR and Boost to strip up to 2 Target locks if you need and still have a Focus to power Poe's ability. Even PS8 Poe will move after the Defenders so make the most of your Boost and BR to keep out of arc whenever possible.

Wes Janson is also good if you don't mind falling back to the humble T-65. I would probably go for VI and Vectored Thrusters as again it gives you the ability to strip more tokens from your target and arc dodge at high PS. You could take an astromech if you want.

Chances are that will use up 75-ish points so for your last ship, you have a couple of options. Biggs is always good in this price bracket as he will keep Wes and Poe alive longer to work their shenanigans. If you want something a bit different then Tarn Mison with either R7 or M9-G8 and IA is a tough little nut to crack.

Not sure if it is the best list to take on Defenders but if you want to play jousty X-wings, those are probably the best pilots to take.

ive had some dificulty with defenders, what seems to work best for me is arc dogers (i admit that practicly all i play) such as Fel + Vader + Phenor, phantoms ive found also work well

Indeed. Defenders are amazing jousters, but they don't like people coming at them from the side.

B-Wings don't have time, 9 dice with two times full mods + Palp should kill one B-Wing before it can even fire unless the B-Wings manage to stay at range 3 and reduce their damage their damage output even more. Meanwhile the return fire from the B-Wings is unlikely to kill something either way.

The math is on the side of the defenders in this match up and the K-Turns are a huge advantage too. Now I am not saying that you can not win with Bs, but it is not a favorable matchup for the B-Wings. And it does not help that the defenders are likely to have full mods for their shots, while the Bs have most likely just a focus to spend in the first round of combat.

ive had some dificulty with defenders, what seems to work best for me is arc dogers (i admit that practicly all i play) such as Fel + Vader + Phenor, phantoms ive found also work well

Indeed. Defenders are amazing jousters, but they don't like people coming at them from the side.

You can emphasis this even more with a good turn zero and asteroid placements. You know they need their 4s and 3s if you block those moves, especially for a whole formation, you might be able to just them with ships with a worse efficiency rating and still come out on top based on movement restrictions. But that is a trap which only works if your opponent does not see it in time and actually moves in himself.

I think BBBBZ has got a fair chance to stomp the Defenders. It might take a while to chew through these tokens, but you have got enough hitpoints and red dice to get the job done.

4 BWings with Fire Control System might work too.

A swarm of T70 might get into trouble as soon as the k-turns begin, because Defenders will be fully modded while the XWings are just stressed.

Nah b-wings are no threat to defenders they can't keep em in arc while the defenders almost never have that issue.

It's a sad fact that even with all those hit points they just Arnt that tough.

I think BBBBZ has got a fair chance to stomp the Defenders. It might take a while to chew through these tokens, but you have got enough hitpoints and red dice to get the job done.

4 BWings with Fire Control System might work too.

A swarm of T70 might get into trouble as soon as the k-turns begin, because Defenders will be fully modded while the XWings are just stressed.

Nah b-wings are no threat to defenders they can't keep em in arc while the defenders almost never have that issue.

It's a sad fact that even with all those hit points they just Arnt that tough.

I agree; I'd like to think my Bs would actually 'be' good at jousting Defenders as they were at the top of the jousting lists years ago (before I even walked down the X-Wing miniatures trail), but alas, the stat-line seems to be deceptive and found wanting.

I'll agree with Karhedron (as I usually...heck, always do), that the best list might possibly be in the X-Wing ship variety. I had really good luck one game against triple Defenders sporting only an X-Wing sqad (70's and E's I argued were acceptable to the bet as they were off-shoots from the stolen Imperial T-65 design). The bet was on. OK, I had to take it that night as I didn't supply the 'old pint filler', so I had to.... Knowing Defenders by having flown them in their X7 format, I thought it would be an fool's errand, but I'm a sucker for a 'you can't do X'. I decided to focus on one Defender at a time regardless of positioning and hope that before the K-turning started (as we approached) I would hopefully be 3 on 2 after the exchange with Horn in a D's grill....then, I would take my chances; I would unleash the Rebel's answer to the stress-free K-turn: brother Porkins as Horn recovers for another double-tap. Believe it or not, my dice did fall well and my flying was good enough (thankfully Defenders fly mostly predictable, even though they're nigh unstoppable); and I won; Porkins amazingly going 5 out of 6 on K-turns, stress and damage free. This list has worked for me, but it's no silver-bullet:

41 Corran Horn – E-Wing (35), R2D2 (4), Fire Control System (2), Intergrated Astromech (0)

33 Wes Janson – X-Wing (29), R3A2 (2), Flechette Torpedos (2), integrated Astromech (0)

26 Jek Porkins – X-Wing (25), R4D6 (1), integrated Astromech (0)

I've found that making them re-roll their greens in some way usually messes them up. And focus fire as always.

Also, most people seem to be running the mid-PS pilots, with MAYBE Vessery at PS8. So out-PS'ing them can also work. Making them use tokens they'd rather not to stay alive.

I faced 2 Vessery/Ryad/Omega Leader lists and a Vessery/Inquisitor/Palpmoblie list at my last tourney and I beat all 3. I had Dengar and Asajj, both with abilities to make the enemy re-roll greens (R4-B11 and Zuckuss) and it made them melt. I killed a focus/evade Vessery in one round of shooting due to Dengar's double tap and Asajj all focusing on him and making him re-roll.

OP: I want to fly small-based jousty stuff, like my Rebel T70s, is there anything I can do to beat Palp Defenders?

YOU: Yea, fly two large-based scum turret ships that force green re-rolls.

Thanks!

I was saying what on my ships worked against them, not so much that they were large-bases or turreted (but in my example, Vessery died due to being in my arcs so...)

I was using my own experience to give examples of ABILITIES that worked against them. Imps and Rebels (and small-based scum) also have things that mess with green (and red) dice. So would still use the same principle and mess with the Defenders dice, which they do not like.

Whisper is solid vs x7s, if you're into Imperials She is "basically" a jouster anyways, hehe.

phantoms ive found also work well

This is my solution. I fly Whisper and Echo. In one game I lost Whisper early and Echo soloed three Defenders. Glorious!

After somebody said 'They'll be looking to do a straight, most often speed 4' I found them much more manageable.

Still tough as old boots, but I felt that I had a much higher chance to engage them with low PS shenanigans, bombs, tractors and ion.

Previously I was so thrown off by them doing a white k-turn I couldn't see that they are quite predictable, and then quite limited if they are not pushing that type of manoeuvre.

EDIT: Had a good fight with two of them with Guri after winning initiative. Having the options to block or fight made it a close knife fight.

Bombs, homing missiles, Blount w/ ION Pulse, Ketsu, Stress bots, TLT, autoblasters, Ghosts, Wes Janson, Carnor Jax, Wedge Antilles, Palob, Old Teroch, Zuckuss, 4Lom, Tailgunner ARCs, Omega Leader etc
I'm sure there's more but there are plenty of tools out there to deal with X7 Defenders.