I live in a socialist leftist country and it stands to reason that the local meta is being dominated by the commonwealth!

I usually fly T-70's, Protectorate Starfighters and other small based jousty stuff.

Although I like to think i'm a decent player, i'm having trouble with these guys. Does the mighty internet have any tips for me?

I try to place asteroids to close off good K-lanes and i try not to approach them too quickly but what to do once you're through the first jousting pass? The story is usually the same, I kill off a defender in the first two rounds of shooting (and they kill one of my wingmen), then the other one gets behind me and I simply melt unable to match their token madness while i'm turning to face them, or melt as they chase me while I go after Palp.

So, outside of not playing T-70's or jousty stuff, how do you build/fly against defenders to come out victorious?

I've found that making them re-roll their greens in some way usually messes them up. And focus fire as always.

Also, most people seem to be running the mid-PS pilots, with MAYBE Vessery at PS8. So out-PS'ing them can also work. Making them use tokens they'd rather not to stay alive.

I faced 2 Vessery/Ryad/Omega Leader lists and a Vessery/Inquisitor/Palpmoblie list at my last tourney and I beat all 3. I had Dengar and Asajj, both with abilities to make the enemy re-roll greens (R4-B11 and Zuckuss) and it made them melt. I killed a focus/evade Vessery in one round of shooting due to Dengar's double tap and Asajj all focusing on him and making him re-roll.

Scum Mindlink stuff seems pretty ok, especially Ventress with slicers and dengar. If you can block them they become less good since the focus token ends up being pretty important overall for their offense/defense. You need to avoid splitting fire and falling into their killbox though. A single attack against a full token+palp is almost useless but start sending in 2-3 attacks and you wear them down.

Also Carnor Jax **** them sideways because they don't get to use their pretty tokens and die the the defenders of old, with sad blank dice.

I don't play x7s a whole lot, relative to ARCs anyway, but I was mildly impressed by mindlink fangs

FAR moreso than PTL fangs

with it and manaroo, your Rau can actually compete with an x7 in terms of modifiers (focus, focus, target-lock, "evade" if title) and more due to the increased dice output

that's one way to deal with x7s: MORE MODS!!!

also, unlike typical aces, **** things can actually k-turn (or T-roll) since they're not stressed from ptl

Ol' Terry will also slap the mods off of any x7; Palob will steal one

apart from regen Poe, T-70s can't really measure up to x7s

There are tools, and it takes tools to beat them; straight up ship on ship jousting does not work against Defenders. You'll need at least one of these in a list with a strong supporting ship cast to crack the X7 code, and some are harder than others to pull off: 1) as stated by InterceptorMad, dice stealing, adjusting or other shananagins, 2) Bombs and Conner-Nets dropped with skill, 3) Alpha-Strike (secondary or multiple-ship primaries, 4) Feedback Array, or a surprisingly good old-standby, 5) Vader crew.

Even then, be on your toes, fly great and hope for great or dice; they're the real-deal of single seat starfighters.

Im learning a lot from all the feedback. Im new to Xwing, and everone seems to be terrified of Defenders... It is quite unsettling.

people love to overreact as a rule

there's nothing "Terrifying" about Defenders after the horrorshow that was torp scouts. They're just, as their stat-line would suggest, incredibly well rounded and incredibly difficult to kill

but nothing you can't handle if you build a proper list, i.e one with a lot of dice modifiers

Im learning a lot from all the feedback. Im new to Xwing, and everone seems to be terrified of Defenders... It is quite unsettling.

I'd not played with my list much, so going into two Defender games back-to-back I was pretty nervous. I'd played with them a little and seen lots of games online so I knew how much they could ruin me if I wasn't careful. I was pleasantly surprised (VERY surprised) I managed to kill them as well as I did. But even with 6 health overall, they are still Imperial ships, so they still live and die on their greens. Messing with that REALLY hurt them.

I've had success with my Kanan/Biggs list. Kanan's 4v3 primary typically strips everything, palp, focus and evade, which leaves them vulnerable to the TLT in the end phase. Anything that Biggs pushes through is just bonus, especially if it's coupled with a stress token. You can typically knock down the shields and about half the time push a hull damage through on one of them by the time you push through to the shuttle, which takes 2-3 rounds to kill off, and you're then left with Kanan at mostly full health vs. a crippled Defender and a full health one. Another round of 4 TLTs should kill the crippled one, leaving you shieldless against a single target. F+E from Kanan means that the defender can't actually do more than 1 damage a turn, so if you can get 1-2 damage via TLT each round, not to mention any bonus damage from the primary, and you'll find yourself winning more often than not.

Now when they roll triple evades every single turn, it becomes a bit harder

Homing missiles? Palob? Carnor Jax? Omega Leader?

x7 does nothing if you can screw with their token use.

Protectorate Fighters with Manaroo do more damage to Palp than the Defenders can ever hope to deal to Manaroo. Manaroo dodges arcs easier on top.

So basically killing the shuttle first should give you a lead. After that just run with that lead. Though catching a defender at range 1 with Fenn Rau and Old Teroch at the same time PS kill the defender in a single turn before it even can return fire. Stealing Evade and Focus tokens and shooting 5 and 4 dice both with focus and target lock is quite the devastating attack (6.19 average damage against a naked 3 agi defender). Now Mr. Commonwealth defender, I dare you make that white K-Turn when I am coming after you. ;-)

people love to overreact as a rule

there's nothing "Terrifying" about Defenders after the horrorshow that was torp scouts. They're just, as their stat-line would suggest, incredibly well rounded and incredibly difficult to kill

but nothing you can't handle if you build a proper list, i.e one with a lot of dice modifiers

I disagree with that. A fully modified 3 dice attack only has a 5.3% chance of doing a single point of damage at R2. Ordnance attacks can be useful for pushing damage through, but there's unlikely to be enough of an alpha strike to take one off of the board.

Im learning a lot from all the feedback. Im new to Xwing, and everone seems to be terrified of Defenders... It is quite unsettling.

I will state that you must always take the "general forum consensus" with a pinch of salt. Most of the time the forum as a whole is skewed off base and/or evaluating things in a vacuum (like arc dodgers always being able to escape arcs every turn, etc.)

Don't get me wrong, defenders are sweet and you need a plan, but the meta is by and large the best I've seen since I started in wave 5 and there's nothing that is actually dramatically overpowered. The "meta" has gatekeepers but that's always true no matter how good balance is.

people love to overreact as a rule

there's nothing "Terrifying" about Defenders after the horrorshow that was torp scouts. They're just, as their stat-line would suggest, incredibly well rounded and incredibly difficult to kill

but nothing you can't handle if you build a proper list, i.e one with a lot of dice modifiers

I disagree with that. A fully modified 3 dice attack only has a 5.3% chance of doing a single point of damage at R2. Ordnance attacks can be useful for pushing damage through, but there's unlikely to be enough of an alpha strike to take one off of the board.

a single fully modified 3 dice attack is not "a lot of dice modifiers"

a single fully modified 3 dice attack is actually incredibly passe nowadays when you can do so much more

hell, ptl ryad and vess set the standard with target lock + focus + re-rolls, with vess being able to further modify with juke or crackshot

people love to overreact as a rule

there's nothing "Terrifying" about Defenders after the horrorshow that was torp scouts. They're just, as their stat-line would suggest, incredibly well rounded and incredibly difficult to kill

but nothing you can't handle if you build a proper list, i.e one with a lot of dice modifiers

I disagree with that. A fully modified 3 dice attack only has a 5.3% chance of doing a single point of damage at R2. Ordnance attacks can be useful for pushing damage through, but there's unlikely to be enough of an alpha strike to take one off of the board.

a single fully modified 3 dice attack is not "a lot of dice modifiers"

a single fully modified 3 dice attack is actually incredibly passe nowadays when you can do so much more

hell, ptl ryad and vess set the standard with target lock + focus + re-rolls, with vess being able to further modify with juke or crackshot

My point is unless you have a way to modify their dice, the number of modifiers for your reds doesn't matter.

people love to overreact as a rule

there's nothing "Terrifying" about Defenders after the horrorshow that was torp scouts. They're just, as their stat-line would suggest, incredibly well rounded and incredibly difficult to kill

but nothing you can't handle if you build a proper list, i.e one with a lot of dice modifiers

I disagree with that. A fully modified 3 dice attack only has a 5.3% chance of doing a single point of damage at R2. Ordnance attacks can be useful for pushing damage through, but there's unlikely to be enough of an alpha strike to take one off of the board.

a single fully modified 3 dice attack is not "a lot of dice modifiers"

a single fully modified 3 dice attack is actually incredibly passe nowadays when you can do so much more

hell, ptl ryad and vess set the standard with target lock + focus + re-rolls, with vess being able to further modify with juke or crackshot

My point is unless you have a way to modify their dice, the number of reds you modify doesn't matter.

sure, but that's just part of building dice modifiers into your list

bombs.....

I disagree with that. A fully modified 3 dice attack only has a 5.3% chance of doing a single point of damage at R2. Ordnance attacks can be useful for pushing damage through, but there's unlikely to be enough of an alpha strike to take one off of the board.

Sending 1 attack at token stacked aces is never good no matter if it's soontir, Vader, fenn rau, defenders, poe, or Corran horn. Aces inherently are good at being defensive so they can get their value back.

people love to overreact as a rule

there's nothing "Terrifying" about Defenders after the horrorshow that was torp scouts. They're just, as their stat-line would suggest, incredibly well rounded and incredibly difficult to kill

but nothing you can't handle if you build a proper list, i.e one with a lot of dice modifiers

I disagree with that. A fully modified 3 dice attack only has a 5.3% chance of doing a single point of damage at R2. Ordnance attacks can be useful for pushing damage through, but there's unlikely to be enough of an alpha strike to take one off of the board.

a single fully modified 3 dice attack is not "a lot of dice modifiers"

a single fully modified 3 dice attack is actually incredibly passe nowadays when you can do so much more

hell, ptl ryad and vess set the standard with target lock + focus + re-rolls, with vess being able to further modify with juke or crackshot

My point is unless you have a way to modify their dice, the number of reds you modify doesn't matter.

sure, but that's just part of building dice modifiers into your list

And those methods would be R4-B11, Zuckuss, and Omega Leader. Huh, that would explain why Rebels don't exist in the meta

Homing missiles tends to eat x7s quite effectively.

If you like to play T70s, why not try outjousting them with Jess Pava + 3 Blue Novices (IA,R2) ?

sure, but that's just part of building dice modifiers into your list

And those methods would be R4-B11, Zuckuss, and Omega Leader. Huh, that would explain why Rebels don't exist in the meta

does not explain the most recent Worlds results at all

also,

juke

crackshot

tailgunner

gunner

auto-blaster turret

bombs of various flavors, +/- sabine

not even getting into how tanky regen ships are, making them easily able to go toe-to-toe with any x7 and win out on time

trust me, I know a thing or two about fighting green dice

edit: forgot stress

defenders don't melt to it like soontir does, but removing the focus action is absolutely massive when it comes to getting through their defenses. oftentimes, it amounts to at least as much as the evade; sometimes more

people love to overreact as a rule

there's nothing "Terrifying" about Defenders after the horrorshow that was torp scouts. They're just, as their stat-line would suggest, incredibly well rounded and incredibly difficult to kill

but nothing you can't handle if you build a proper list, i.e one with a lot of dice modifiers

I disagree with that. A fully modified 3 dice attack only has a 5.3% chance of doing a single point of damage at R2. Ordnance attacks can be useful for pushing damage through, but there's unlikely to be enough of an alpha strike to take one off of the board.

Yeah, because a simple double homing missile scum list does not take a defender of the board before it can even fire once. ;-)

Two times 4 Hits without evades + zuckuss or a blocked focus on top big enough to kill a defender. And look, the commonwealth defenders are reduced to a single threat list in one turn. ;-)

They're just, as their stat-line would suggest, incredibly well rounded and incredibly difficult to kill

Honestly, that's better than Overcosted and Never Seen. I'm not even a fan of the Defender (in terms of lore or model). But technically the game's models should be dangerous. A model nobody uses means there's something wrong with its rules design.

people love to overreact as a rule

there's nothing "Terrifying" about Defenders after the horrorshow that was torp scouts. They're just, as their stat-line would suggest, incredibly well rounded and incredibly difficult to kill

but nothing you can't handle if you build a proper list, i.e one with a lot of dice modifiers

I disagree with that. A fully modified 3 dice attack only has a 5.3% chance of doing a single point of damage at R2. Ordnance attacks can be useful for pushing damage through, but there's unlikely to be enough of an alpha strike to take one off of the board.

Yeah, because a simple double homing missile scum list does not take a defender of the board before it can even fire once. ;-)

Two times 4 Hits without evades + zuckuss or a blocked focus on top big enough to kill a defender. And look, the commonwealth defenders are reduced to a single threat list in one turn. ;-)

1) Homing missiles aren't 3 dice attacks

2) Let's go through those probabilities shall we? We're saying that we're going to do 6 damage from 8 dice. For the moment, let's assume that you have LRS and can take a TL+F for the attack.

So, first off, we have to roll at least 7 hits from 8 TL+F dice. This is a 73.6% chance, not a bad start assuming you have the TL+F (and no GC). Note for argument sake, if you have GC+deadeye, you're looking at a 88.6% of rolling at least 5 hits (and then converting 2 to hits via GC). Heck, for math's sake, the GC variant is more successful, so let's start at 88.6%. Not too bad of a starting position. Note you need 7 because your opponent is guaranteed at least 1 evade via Palp.

But it's not quite as simple as rolling >5 between 2 attacks. Rolling 4 on one, and 1 on the other only nets 6 total positive results. So let's look at it as two attacks of rolling 3 and 2 hits, plus GC to make it 4 and 3. Yes, I realize it's possible to get 4/4 - we'll look at that as well. You have a 74% of rolling 3 or 4 hits, and a 21% of rolling 2 hits, for a combined likelyhood of getting 7 hits of 31.8%. Note the x2 multiplier since we presumably don't care if it's 3 -> 4 or 4 -> 3.

So from there, your opponent needs to blank out on all 3 dice for the non-Zuckuss attack. That's 5% of a chance. The Zuckuss assisted attack (though I have to say, I've never seen Zuckuss on a missile carrier, but let's ignore that for a moment) has a bit of a better chance of blanking out. You can roll 3 blanks naturally at 5%, or roll 2 blanks, reroll the 3rd into a blank at 10%, roll 1 blank reroll into 3 blanks at 6%, or roll 3 evades rerolled into blanks at 1%, for a total triple blank probability of 22%.

So, method 1 of killing a Defender is to roll a total of 7 hits vs. his 1 evade (post Palp) for a kill percentage of .35%. But wait, it gets better. Method 2 of killing a Defender is to roll 8 hits vs. his 2 evades (post Palp)... Let's look at that.

Getting 2 4 hit HM with F+GC happens 55% of the time. We calculated the probability of 0 evades total above. But you can also have 1 from the non-Z roll (26%) coupled with 0 from Z (22%), or 1 from Z coupled (42%) with 0 from non-Z (5%).

1 naturally rerolled into 1 = 16%

2 naturally rerolled into 1 = 20%

3 naturally rerolled into 1 = 6%

Total = 42%

So, your opponent has a 9% chance of rolling 1 or fewer evades. Coupled with your 55% of rolling 8 hits, and you only have a 5% chance of killing him like that.

So, add the two methods together, and 2 HM attacks, backed by GC, Focuses, and Zuckuss have a 5.3% chance of killing a Defender.

I've found that making them re-roll their greens in some way usually messes them up. And focus fire as always.

Also, most people seem to be running the mid-PS pilots, with MAYBE Vessery at PS8. So out-PS'ing them can also work. Making them use tokens they'd rather not to stay alive.

I faced 2 Vessery/Ryad/Omega Leader lists and a Vessery/Inquisitor/Palpmoblie list at my last tourney and I beat all 3. I had Dengar and Asajj, both with abilities to make the enemy re-roll greens (R4-B11 and Zuckuss) and it made them melt. I killed a focus/evade Vessery in one round of shooting due to Dengar's double tap and Asajj all focusing on him and making him re-roll.

Can you give us a full list? Sounds like a fun/interesting one