Both have the "Before" condition, referencing a character leaving play.

So lets say I'm using Grievous and I kill your Rey who happens to have a Lightsaber. Lets also say that the Lightsaber is currently IN PLAY, showing the special side. Lightsaber comes to you....

Is the die still in play with the special side up?

I'm inclined to think that it is, only because that lightsaber never actually LEFT play.

Similar situation with "One with the force" - The die is currently in play, character dies and ONE WITH THE FORCE becomes a support - however it never actually left play, so is the die still in play?

Again, I'm inclined to believe that it does stay in play and the die stays in play.

And in the case of One with the Force... you could in theory, spend the die, and then ACTIVATE One with the Force, to roll that die and spend it again!

Where did I go wrong?

And thank you!

I need to check, but when you ready a support (or character) I think you remove all dice from the pool...

Correct. In the case of Grievous and OWTF, both abilities go off BEFORE the card can leave play, so dice remain in the pool. Generally speaking, die remain in play unless something removes them such as resolving/spending/upkeep phase/the card they're attached to leaves play, etc.

I am inclined to say yes to one with the force and no to Lightsaber. Techincally is the card leaving a play area? I would say no, but you cannot resolve dice not in your dice pool, so the lightsaber die would still be in the other players dice pool no?

Interesting - I just searched the rules reference and can't find anything stating that it comes out of the pool.

I am inclined to say yes to one with the force and no to Lightsaber. Techincally is the card leaving a play area? I would say no, but you cannot resolve dice not in your dice pool, so the lightsaber die would still be in the other players dice pool no?

I would think the die would move with the card into the controlling player's dice pool in it's current state.

I am inclined to say yes to one with the force and no to Lightsaber. Techincally is the card leaving a play area? I would say no, but you cannot resolve dice not in your dice pool, so the lightsaber die would still be in the other players dice pool no?

I would think the die would move with the card into the controlling player's dice pool in it's current state.

That is tricky, because if you ready an exhausted card its dice does not return to the card immediately. So why, if the card changes owners should it remove the die from the pool?

regarding One with the Force isn't there even the simpler question? If the character it is attached to is defeated, with the OwtF die out in your pool; as it turns into a Support, must the die get returned, or do you leave it alone?

I'd actually follow the precedent of Redeploy on this one, which says that dice move to the card during the redeploy.

I played it as a ready support and put the die on it. I took the before as meaning it doesn't get discarded and assumed the die goes on the card. But I easily could be wrong on this one.

READY
A card is ready when it is in an upright position. Ready cards
can be exhausted (turned sideways). A player instructed to
ready a card should turn the card to an upright position.

From the RRG. Notice there's nothing about any dice attached to the card having to be returned, just the card itself being turned to an upright position.

I am inclined to say yes to one with the force and no to Lightsaber. Techincally is the card leaving a play area? I would say no, but you cannot resolve dice not in your dice pool, so the lightsaber die would still be in the other players dice pool no?

I would think the die would move with the card into the controlling player's dice pool in it's current state.

That is tricky, because if you ready an exhausted card its dice does not return to the card immediately. So why, if the card changes owners should it remove the die from the pool?

I didn't say anything about moving it back to the card. I said the die should remain in the pool, but in the new controller of the upgrade's die pool.

As far as treating this as a redeploy situation, the rules specifically state his effect takes place before redeploy. I know this is not the intent of the statement in the RRG, but still doesnt lessen the complexity of the situation.

Each player has their own play area, when a card leaves the play area it should lose its active die. Is a card going from one play area to another considered leaving play? I would say yes.

It's not a question of when it happens compared to redeploy, it's a question of how you handle the dice.

Redeploy moves an upgrade from one of my characters to one of my own characters. It explicitly says that the die comes out of the pool and goes back to the card. Grievous moves and upgrade from one of your characters to one of my characters - why wouldn't you think the same applied?

There are two possibilities: Either dice generally stay in the pool when cards move around but Redeploy is an exception, or Redeploy is an example of a general rule. I'll freely admit it's not explicitly stated either way, but it seems rather unlikely to me that Redeploy is breaking an unwritten rule.

Each player has their own play area, when a card leaves the play area it should lose its active die. Is a card going from one play area to another considered leaving play? I would say yes.

Ooh, good question. That could very well be true and if so then, yeah, the die would return to the card once Grievous has it.

Might send this one of for an official answer.

This is a case were the Golden rule must be referred to first:

If the text of a card directly contradicts the rules of the

game, the text of the card takes precedence. If you can

follow both the rules of the game and the text of the

card, do so. (RRG, 3)

Next, Defeated Characters:

When a character has damage on it equal to its health, it is

immediately defeated. Remove all of its dice from the game

(both its character and upgrade dice), discard all upgrades

on it, and remove the character card from the game. (RRG, 15)

Redeploy:

This keyword only appears on upgrades. After the attached

character is defeated, its controller may immediately move

this upgrade to any of their other characters. The upgrade die

moves to the new character card, even if it was in the dice pool. (RRG, 17)

Grievous:

Before an opponent's character is defeated, you may move one of their non-ability upgrades to this character.

Thinking about the Golden rule, I'm inclined to believe the dice returns to the card and then is given to Grievous, but I'd like FFG to rule on this one. I can't find wording to fully back any interpretation of this rule definitively.

I'd actually follow the precedent of Redeploy on this one, which says that dice move to the card during the redeploy.

Only problem is Redeploy happens AFTER a character is defeated, and OWTF and Grievous both trigger BEFORE a character is defeated, so using Redeploy's rules aren't going to help you here.

Each player has their own play area, when a card leaves the play area it should lose its active die. Is a card going from one play area to another considered leaving play? I would say yes.

Do the rules talk about each player's "Play Area" and how they are separate? I know the rules say each player has their own dice pool, but I'm don't recall any rulings on personal play areas.

I can see this going either way to be honest. One With the Force the die can stay in play... I get that. But Grievous, you would have to move a die from one pool to another pool.... and I THINK that is where the distinction would be.... because you cannot resolve dice in someone else's pool.

Maybe.... just Maybe the die STAYS in the original owner's pool. Now the CARD is on Grievous - and as soon as he ACTIVATES he's gonna roll the die into his own pool - but lets just say that he hasn't activated yet.... but Rey died from a stormtrooper. Maybe that Lightsaber Stays exactly where it is..... in Rey's pool.

Nah - that wouldn't make sense because then Ray could turn around and resolve a weapon she no longer has.

So if it can't stay in her pool - it either has to go to Grievous' pool, or back onto the card.

I FEEL like it makes more sense for it to go on the card - but still need FFG to rule on this one.

Grievous:

Before an opponent's character is defeated, you may move one of their non-ability upgrades to this character.

That's the part that is becoming confusing, it says MOVE which isn't quite the same. They could just have easily made his card read " Before an opponent's character is defeated, you may REDEPLOY one of their non-ability upgrades to this character."

I've sent them an email asking for clarification. If/when i get it, I'll share the info here.

I played it as a ready support and put the die on it. I took the before as meaning it doesn't get discarded and assumed the die goes on the card. But I easily could be wrong on this one.

This is also how I have been playing it. The last line of One With The Force says (it starts ready) the word starts to me implies that in it's transition from an upgrade to a support everything gets refreshed, the card is readied and the die brought back, it then starts a new life as a support ready to activate.

RRG states that each player has their own play area

DICE POOL

This is where dice are rolled. Each player has their own dice pool. Dice are always placed on their matching cards when not in a dice pool.

OUT-OF-PLAY

Cards in a player’s hand, deck, and discard pile are out of play and their abilities cannot be used until they are played.

1. A card leaves play when it transitions from the play area to an out-of-play area.

DICE ON CARDS

When dice are not in a dice pool, they are placed on their matching card.

1. These dice are not active, cannot be manipulated, and none of their sides are considered to be showing.

I'd actually follow the precedent of Redeploy on this one, which says that dice move to the card during the redeploy.

Only problem is Redeploy happens AFTER a character is defeated, and OWTF and Grievous both trigger BEFORE a character is defeated, so using Redeploy's rules aren't going to help you here.

Again - I know it's not actually Redeploy, and that Grievous goes off first.

Redeploy is, however, a very similar ability. If anything, it's a more restrained version of Grievous' effect because it keeps the card in the same play area. We know Redeploy pulls the die out of the pool. With that example, and lacking any firm rules either way, is there any reason to think it won't work the same?

Or at the very least, pending word from FFG, any reason that it's not enough precedent to play it that way for now?

I think the rule for Grievous will be, that the upgrade (including die which is removed from dice pool if it was on the table) will move to Grievous. If it was already exhausted, it will remain exhausted. If it was ready, it will remain ready.

So if the opponent used it before they died, Grievous is out of luck this turn even if he didn't get to go. If opponent didn't and character dies, then Grievous will get the upgrade and then be able to use it if he himself can still activate. If Grievous activated already, won't matter either way then.

My two cents anyways.

~D

I think the rule for Grievous will be, that the upgrade (including die which is removed from dice pool if it was on the table) will move to Grievous. If it was already exhausted, it will remain exhausted. If it was ready, it will remain ready.

Upgrades don't exhaust.

Edit: Well, dice-based upgrades don't exhaust. Since he can't take abilities, I think that the only non-die upgrade he could still would be Prized Possession. Which would be... weird. But I don't think there's any point to him claiming it, because you only grab a die when it's played.

I think the rule for Grievous will be, that the upgrade (including die which is removed from dice pool if it was on the table) will move to Grievous. If it was already exhausted, it will remain exhausted. If it was ready, it will remain ready.

Upgrades don't exhaust.

Some upgrades exhaust.

I think the rule for Grievous will be, that the upgrade (including die which is removed from dice pool if it was on the table) will move to Grievous. If it was already exhausted, it will remain exhausted. If it was ready, it will remain ready.

Upgrades don't exhaust.

Some upgrades exhaust.

Check my edit, which was a bit slow because I was actually checking to see if he could claim any of the ones that did. Which he can't, so...

One with the Force is an ability upgrade that turns in to a support. Neither of those are taken by General Grievous, he takes non-ability upgrades. I agree that his ability very much sounds like a Redeploy to Opponent, that triggers before your own redeploy, so we play it that way, with the die going to the card. Someone should ask FFG about that though.