How do you folks handle fuel and resource consumption in your games if at all? I was wondering if rolling a D10 x 100 = cost for trip is reasonable?
Fuel and resources.
Narratively for the most part. I think that we've only ever calculated fuel/cargo/resources on one or two occasions because it was plot relevant
For vehicles with Consumables, fuel is a part of that value. For vehicles without a listed Consumables rating, I assume that most have less than 1 day (Sil < 4) or one week (Sil 4+).
I've never seen any kind of calculation for consumption, unless we are talking about food, as the amount you purchase states how many days of food you are buying. As for fuel, do they even use fuel? I've always assumed every ship in Star Wars uses some kind of reactionless drive, or repulsors, or whatever you want to call it. Big fusion reactor type thingy, draw power from it, poof you have propulsion. I can't think of an example in canon that had fuel be a problem.
So yeah, I wouldn't even bother about fuel.
But if you are going to go that route, I would just leave it up to the narrative flow. Maybe have some Despairs add up to "the fuel hose is leaking, and you've lost a portion of your tank ahead of schedule. Looks like you'll have to find a nearby refueling station (read: plot hook) to top up your tanks and fix the leak. I'm sure nothing interesting or plot related will happen while you are there."
I've never seen any kind of calculation for consumption, unless we are talking about food, as the amount you purchase states how many days of food you are buying. As for fuel, do they even use fuel? I've always assumed every ship in Star Wars uses some kind of reactionless drive, or repulsors, or whatever you want to call it. Big fusion reactor type thingy, draw power from it, poof you have propulsion. I can't think of an example in canon that had fuel be a problem.
So yeah, I wouldn't even bother about fuel.
But if you are going to go that route, I would just leave it up to the narrative flow. Maybe have some Despairs add up to "the fuel hose is leaking, and you've lost a portion of your tank ahead of schedule. Looks like you'll have to find a nearby refueling station (read: plot hook) to top up your tanks and fix the leak. I'm sure nothing interesting or plot related will happen while you are there."
Rebels had stories involving fuel leaks and the acquisition of fuel for the Pheonix fleet, so it it is factor with starships in Star Wars, if only as a plot device...
Though admittedly, for general starship system power, including sublight ion drives, I tend to hand wave the requirement for fuel. But as for hyperspace travel, I use the following house rule:
All starships have a maximum fuel capacity for 50 days of hyperspace travel. This is based on x1 Hyperdrive travel times with the argument that a faster hyperdrive will have a higher consumption, so even if it took 3 days instead of 6, it would still use six days of fuel. Likewise a x2 hyperdrive would still use six days of fuel, even though the journey took 12 days due to a lower consumption for a less powerful hyperdrive. Advantages / Triumphs on Astrogation checks will help with lowering such fuel consumption with the shortening of the base (x1) travel time, and threats / Despair may increase it accordingly.
Fuel cost is based on starship Silhouette:
Sil 4 or lower = 50cr per day of fuel (cost can actually vary a little depending on location). I haven't run a game with hyperspace capable PC starfighters, you could argue that such ships have 25cr per day, but only 25 Days capacity.
Each Silhouette level above 4 doubles the fuel cost requirement to shift the ship into/through hyperspace (more mass, more fuel): Sil 5 = 100cr, 6 = 200cr etc.
So to completely re-fuel a light freighter = 2,500cr (50 x 50), to completely refuel a big capital ship (say, Sil 8) would cost = 40,000cr (50 x 800). The capital ship does appear a bit cheap to run, admittedly. But then again, what galactic level government (and GM) will worry about such fuel costs...?
That's about it really.
So, just to let you know, I'm a bit of a Star Wars Techno-geek. I don't claim to know everything, but I like to think that I know a fair bit.
So, according to most sources, ships actually do use fuel, though its sold and used in lots (kinda like batteries/gas cans) called 'fuel cells'. Also, IIRC, in episode V Solo had to land on Bespin after fleeing Hoth due to either technical difficulties, or lack of fuel, can't remember which.
In my last game, I actually used fuel consumption rules provided by a fan supplement I found some time ago on these forums to keep the players from earning lots of money too fast, as even on a good run they still had to pay a pretty hefty price for fuel. It worked quite well, and it was pretty simple, too. Each fuel cell was marked on a row of boxes, and as certain actions took place, fuel was consumed. Doing so requires a bit of extra work on the GM's part, mostly determining travel times between destinations (possibly with help from a map), but I didn't find it too terribly difficult.
Here's the link to the post with the document; RebelDave's Operational Costs Supplement
It really boils down to the type of game you like to run. Personally, I like some of those in-the-weeds kinds of details, but my players generally don't. I usually default to KungFuFerret's example of ignoring it ("it" being things like fuel, berthing fees, resupply, etc.) unless it's germane to the plot. I have to say that it does make the game go faster if you don't sweat the small stuff.
It really boils down to the type of game you like to run. Personally, I like some of those in-the-weeds kinds of details, but my players generally don't. I usually default to KungFuFerret's example of ignoring it ("it" being things like fuel, berthing fees, resupply, etc.) unless it's germane to the plot. I have to say that it does make the game go faster if you don't sweat the small stuff.
Well, to be fair, I don't entirely ignore them. For example, I used the various "mundane" things they were expected to deal with, to help push the narrative forward. It wasn't a "you are out of gas" kind of situation, but it was the "you've docked at this starport, while you are paying the docking fees, by the way, deduct 25 credits, a group of street kids come up to you, asking for a few credits to eat." The character, being a good person, gave them some money. I did this multiple times, pretty much anywhere they went, so that they didn't notice I was going to use the street kids as a plot device later. I've mentioned in another thread, I came up with this espionage group called the Orphans of Alderan, at first made up of literal orphans of the planet, those who survived, but eventually it became a gathering point for those who had lost everything to the Empire. The party were to meet an agent of the Rebellion at this one starport, but the agent wasn't going to speak to them directly, too suspicious. So, he had his "orphans" go up and ask for change. By that point in the story (slowly milking the player of about 50 credits in the process over the campaign), she didn't even pay them any attention, just handed over the cash. They were then quite shocked when I had the kid say "The Orphans of Alderan thank you for your generosity, be in docking bay 27 in 30 minutes, ask the technician there if you can see what his prices are for a hyperdrive refitting. Then follow him." Then they vanished. The players were like "Wait...wut?! Was that our contact?!" It was most satisfying to sneak it in like that. And to do so, I had to use the "cost of living" type expenses to keep it from being so obvious.
Nice idea, Ferret. Really good way to sneak in cost of living without a huge amount of fanfare, then turn it into a plot device as well. Gonna have to remember that for my own games.
Snuffy does bring up a good point, it really depends on your players and the kind of campaign you're running. My players (one in particular) are extreme detail hogs - the one especially likes to know and have mechanics for EVERY. SINGLE. DETAIL, no matter how minor, which gets annoying after a certain point. Too much D&D 3.5 in his blood if you ask me...
In my experience, and from what I know of the universe, fuel prices will vary depending on where you are. If it's a well-equipped spaceport in a busy area (such as Corellia, Coruscant, Nar Shadaa, Lianna, etc.), fuel will be cheaper (roughly 1500 credits for a full tank of fuel), whereas on some backwater dustball like tatooine or Jakku, the price is going to go up, possibly even by three or four times. As a general rule of thumb though, I always use 1500 credits as the minimum price for a full tank of gas, as that's what most sources I've seen agree on as a good number, and I tend to agree. Plus, if getting a full tank every time you fill up at the pump, you don't have to stop at every planet for gas, just some of them.
If you want something detailed, I've got this, but I haven't used (playtested) it yet. It's part of a larger unfinished document so it's a rough draft and it may speak of other things in the larger document which includes flight operations, varying starports and prices, etc.
Edit: It separates fuel as a new resource. Consumables becomes air, water, and food.
Edited by SturnA post on this forum, I think, is what I based my house rules on.
A typical PC freighter carries 50-70 fuel cells, base cost is 50 credits and influenced by system economy, base fuel spent is eyeballed to scale from a map we use, and rolls add or subtract amount used for a jump.
Tatooine to Rodia on a 2x drive, for example, would normally exhaust 3 cells.
It's a really simple way to introduce a fair cost-benefit calculation for players, and gradually chips away at savings. I love it (and incorporate docking fees and periodic engine maintenance).
Edited by wilschIf you want something detailed, I've got this, but I haven't used (playtested) it yet. It's part of a larger unfinished document so it's a rough draft and it may speak of other things in the larger document which includes flight operations, varying starports and prices, etc.
I just tell my Players that the cash rewards/earnings/treasure whatever, are
net*
profits after paying for normal maintenance/fuel/blue milk and such and that if they want they can get more cash by taking Obligation that directly affects their ship. They only pay for repairs and mods they don't/can't make themselves. It's easy and no one has to deal with Space Accounting.
Occasionally I throw in a Docking fee or bribe, or some other problem, that they have to pay for out of their funds, such as at the Wheel or some backwater for flavor or if it's important for an adventure.
*For those of you who may not know the difference between Net and Gross income yet: Gross - Costs = Net
Edited by FuriousGregIt's easy and no one has to deal with Space Accounting.
This works great for groups that don't wish to delve into "Space Accounting". At it's core FFG Star Wars SHOULD handle some details narratively without breaking out calculators. Even so, there are lots of things we account for in FFG SW on the personal scale. For example, we may not keep track of exact number of bullets, but you can run out of ammo requiring a reload. Likewise, perhaps a Despair can lead to out of gas results. Then add Extra Fuel Tankage as a modification or Extra Fuel Cells being a new gear item if your cargo hold is large enough to hold it? Those might actually be a good idea for those wishing to keep it simple and narrative. I would take that up with my players first though. I've heard gripes about out-of-ammo results: "We just set off on a commando raid of utmost importance and I'm out of ammo on my first burst of blaster fire?". Imagine, "So we ran out of fuel even though we knew where we were headed to? The ship didn't warn us we would need to refuel to get back?"
My snippet about fuel above (the PDF linked) is for players who DO like Space Accounting. I have played with such players. Perhaps it is due to a history of Traveller in some of my old gamers?
More detailed rules for fuel, sensors, cargo space, consumables, etc shouldn't be something you get into UNLESS you have such a group or your campaign veers into Space Merchants or Space Explorers where such may be more important.
I've got a "Vehicle Operations" document I've been working on that includes details on such but it will be a bit before I post it. It's more advanced then RAW but some may like it and I would appreciate some playtesting and feedback.
Edited by SturnLikewise, perhaps a Despair can lead to out of gas results.*
My snippet about fuel above (the PDF linked) is for players who DO like Space Accounting. I have played with such players. Perhaps it is due to a history of Traveller in some of my old gamers?
* I agree and use Despair rolls for things like this. Like I said it makes accounting easier but I do get some people's desire for cruncher rules on the subject, it just hasn't been an issue with my games so far.
Ah, Traveller my old friend... I have the whole collection of those mini-books, I look at them every so often
A few of the adventures translate quite well to FFGSW.
One thing a GM
could
do is measure fuel and minor wear and tear as System Strain. Yes, the players can heal it during combat and all, but it's not too hard to limit just how much they can heal. It should be pretty cheap to "heal" it in a spaceport, but that represents refueling and maintaining the systems. Don't go overboard, but you can ding them a point of SS every now and then when they roll Threat on Astrogation or Piloting.
I suppose if you're trying to keep track of what can be "healed" and what can't, it might be easier to lower their SS Threshold bit by bit, and let it come back up after a few hours and credits in a spaceport.
At it's core FFG Star Wars SHOULD handle some details narratively without breaking out calculators. Even so, there are lots of things we account for in FFG SW on the personal scale. For example, we may not keep track of exact number of bullets, but you can run out of ammo requiring a reload. Likewise, perhaps a Despair can lead to out of gas results. Then add Extra Fuel Tankage as a modification or Extra Fuel Cells being a new gear item if your cargo hold is large enough to hold it? Those might actually be a good idea for those wishing to keep it simple and narrative. I would take that up with my players first though. I've heard gripes about out-of-ammo results: "We just set off on a commando raid of utmost importance and I'm out of ammo on my first burst of blaster fire?". Imagine, "So we ran out of fuel even though we knew where we were headed to? The ship didn't warn us we would need to refuel to get back?"
Hey... that's pretty good. I'ma use it.
I built a spreadsheet to handle all the finicky space accounting stuff so we never needed to in game. I just keep notes of time days passed and drop it into the spreadsheet as needed Just based it on consumable capacity and used that as a measure for the range of a ship and a way to gauge fuel capacity. I also have a rough section to calculate import/export taxes for the sake transporting cargo/smuggling.
It's purpose is to allow a degree of space accounting, for those who like that sort of thing, but to not let the game be overtaken by it. I haven't put it totally to the test as my players seem to be totally landlocked and unwilling to leave
I am open to feedback too.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1P719q83oo3gOOhcAX8RT1kWxcMi-_nP6PXm5r-yj5NU/edit?usp=sharing
You will have to excuse its sloppiness in places; I used making this spreadsheet as a way to teach myself the "finer" points of Microsoft Excel
I built a spreadsheet to handle all the finicky space accounting stuff so we never needed to in game. I just keep notes of time days passed and drop it into the spreadsheet as needed Just based it on consumable capacity and used that as a measure for the range of a ship and a way to gauge fuel capacity. I also have a rough section to calculate import/export taxes for the sake transporting cargo/smuggling.
It's purpose is to allow a degree of space accounting, for those who like that sort of thing, but to not let the game be overtaken by it. I haven't put it totally to the test as my players seem to be totally landlocked and unwilling to leave
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1P719q83oo3gOOhcAX8RT1kWxcMi-_nP6PXm5r-yj5NU/edit?usp=sharing
You will have to excuse its sloppiness in places; I used making this spreadsheet as a way to teach myself the "finer" points of Microsoft Excel
If you do actually want to use this, download it and use it. My Google Drive link won't let you mess about with it
I did this a long while ago... I dont know how effective it is, as I didnt get any Playtest feedback, but works reasonably well for my group, who are very 'number crunchy' and like this kind of detail
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-cK7UE7hkkcTzJocVowQnJwRkk/view?usp=sharing
I did this a long while ago... I dont know how effective it is, as I didnt get any Playtest feedback, but works reasonably well for my group, who are very 'number crunchy' and like this kind of detail
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-cK7UE7hkkcTzJocVowQnJwRkk/view?usp=sharing
Dave, that's... that's fantastic. Thanks for sharing that.
I think I'll peruse through it and maybe update McHyde's spreadsheet (the which is also excellent) and I'll have all the info I may-or-may-not need.
I did this a long while ago... I dont know how effective it is, as I didnt get any Playtest feedback, but works reasonably well for my group, who are very 'number crunchy' and like this kind of detail
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-cK7UE7hkkcTzJocVowQnJwRkk/view?usp=sharing
Dave, that's... that's fantastic. Thanks for sharing that.
I think I'll peruse through it and maybe update McHyde's spreadsheet (the which is also excellent) and I'll have all the info I may-or-may-not need.
Thanks. Dave's Doc is amazing. I will be taking the System Failure table for my own game
If anyone is up the job of adapting my spreadsheet with Dave's PDF feel free to mess with and redistribute my spreadsheet. We can only make the game better for scoundrels, rebels, Jedi and space accountants alike
I did this a long while ago... I dont know how effective it is, as I didnt get any Playtest feedback, but works reasonably well for my group, who are very 'number crunchy' and like this kind of detail
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-cK7UE7hkkcTzJocVowQnJwRkk/view?usp=sharing
This was one of my primary sources when developing my own repair rules. Before I post my PDF's (someday) I have you on a list to ask permissions and give credit*.
*Not Star Wars "credits". Away put your lawyer!
I did this a long while ago... I dont know how effective it is, as I didnt get any Playtest feedback, but works reasonably well for my group, who are very 'number crunchy' and like this kind of detail
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-cK7UE7hkkcTzJocVowQnJwRkk/view?usp=sharing
Dave, that's... that's fantastic. Thanks for sharing that.
I think I'll peruse through it and maybe update McHyde's spreadsheet (the which is also excellent) and I'll have all the info I may-or-may-not need.
I did this a long while ago... I dont know how effective it is, as I didnt get any Playtest feedback, but works reasonably well for my group, who are very 'number crunchy' and like this kind of detail
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-cK7UE7hkkcTzJocVowQnJwRkk/view?usp=sharing
Dave, that's... that's fantastic. Thanks for sharing that.
I think I'll peruse through it and maybe update McHyde's spreadsheet (the which is also excellent) and I'll have all the info I may-or-may-not need.
Thanks. Dave's Doc is amazing. I will be taking the System Failure table for my own game
If anyone is up the job of adapting my spreadsheet with Dave's PDF feel free to mess with and redistribute my spreadsheet. We can only make the game better for scoundrels, rebels, Jedi and space accountants alike
I did this a long while ago... I dont know how effective it is, as I didnt get any Playtest feedback, but works reasonably well for my group, who are very 'number crunchy' and like this kind of detail
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-cK7UE7hkkcTzJocVowQnJwRkk/view?usp=sharing
This was one of my primary sources when developing my own repair rules. Before I post my PDF's (someday) I have you on a list to ask permissions and give credit*.
*Not Star Wars "credits". Away put your lawyer!
Thanks for all the kind words
It was my first attempt at some kind of Community Benefitting Project, I started it mostly out of something I was doing for my own group, and it kinda... exploded into what you see.
But It never seemed to get much traction, so its really nice to know people have used and it and liked it
If anyone has any suggestions to improve or expand it, I'm open to collaboration to improve things!
My group feels like there being nickel and dimed when I add in fueling fees. I do include it though for plot points and stop offs, so that they don't think they can glide endlessly through space for free.