In a recent game, after the OL’s turn was finished, one hero was left alive with one heart (drat!), and two bleed tokens resulted as part of that round of attacks. When the hero’s next turn started, there was a debate about order of applying start of the round affects. The hero had a card (crystal of tival) that said “Discard after equipping at the start of your turn to recover 6 wounds and restore your fatigue to its maximum value”. The instructions for the bleed tokens say to apply the bleed effect at the beginning of the hero’s turn. What we did was allow the hero to exhaust the card and get the six hearts back, then have him roll the two white die for the bleed effects. Is this the correct order?

Or should the hero apply the bleed effects before he can use a treasure card. As OL I was thinking the bleed should be applied first, since it states the treasure card is used after equipping.

Your thoughts? Thanks.

I believe turn order says to resolve linger effect as the very first step. The re-equip portion comes after that.

In this case the Bleed tokens would be resolved first, since "start of turn" happens before the hero has a chance to equip the crystal in the Equip step on his turn. In general, though, if two effects happen "at the start of turn" then the affected player decides what order to resolve them in. This case is an exception since it requires equipping the item.

That said, I know a lot of people play this card like it has to be used as soon as it is equipped, but I wonder if it wasn't intended to be usable at any point during the hero's turn, provided he just equipped it at the start of this turn. Has there been any discussion/ruling on that point?

I can't point you to the topic right now, but I do remember a thread discussing that card and its wording in great length. I don't think that a consensus was reached.

Edit : http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efpag=0&efid=4&efcid=1&efidt=204798

I was part of the discussion mentioned by Steve-O. On the topic of Gath's question, here is what I said:

From the FAQ:

"Q: What is the proper timing of events that occur “at the beginning of a player’s turn”?
A: When multiple events may occur “at the beginning of a player’s turn,” such as a hero affected by multiple different status effects like Burn and Bleed, that player may decide in which order to resolve them. The player must resolve all “start of turn” effects before proceeding with the rest of his turn."

The key sentence is: "The player must resolve all “start of turn” effects before proceeding with the rest of his turn."

Equipping is not an effect, it is an action. It follows that since all "start of turn" effects must resolve before proceeding with the rest of the turn (before any actions are taken, obviously), Burn and Bleed tokens (and Rest, etc.) resolve before one has a chance to equip.

-

Thus your player should not have been able to equip the Crystal before rolling for his Bleed tokens.

On the subject of the Crystal of Tival, I was of the opinion that one had to use it immediately after equipping, but my opinion was invalidated because of the wording of the card, which says "Discard after equipping at the start of your turn to recover 6 wounds and restore your fatigue to its maximum value". Since it says "do this to do that", more experienced forum members were of the opinion that you could choose to equip it and not discard it to not get the effect and simply keep it equipped. However, at the time I did not know the wording of the Amulet of Healing and of Jinn's Lamp, which are similar silver and gold treasures:

Amulet of Healing: "Discard after equipping at the start of your turn. Restore your wounds and fatigue to their maximum values."

Jinn's Lamp: "Discard after equipping at the start of your turn. You and all adjacent heroes recover 8 wounds and restore your fatigue to its maximum value."

Notice the difference? The absence of "do this to do that." For both these items, the wording makes it mandatory to discard them after equipping at the start of your turn (if you equipped them of course), because there is no "do this to do that." There just is a "do that" that doesn't let you any choice (if equipped).

Of course, you could make the Crystal of Tival work differently from the two other items, but in my opinion, the three items should work the same, and the "Discard immediately after equipping at the start of your turn, period" should win over the conditional wording by 2 items to 1.

Hmm, I guess I was playing the curse doll in the wrong sense as well. Brother Glyr had 2 bleed tokens and a curse token. And was at 1 wound. I said it was legit, but I guess I was wrong.

Oh well. Noted for next time, Bleed tokens are more dangerous...lol

Ispher said:

.......

A) Equipping at the "start" of a hero's turn (i.e. step 2 of the turn sequence) is not an action. Those come later.
B) How are you supposed to equip something at the start of the turn if you can't equip anything at the start of the turn? The card is either referring to or explicitly defining the step 2 "free" equip as being part of the "start" of a hero's turn. Therefore, it follows that step 2 "free" equip is part of the class of all "start of turn" effects.

Alternately, the card is in error and has been since its printing, and is therefore completely unusable in its current state, since there would be no way to equip it a the start of the turn in order to trigger the desired effect. I really can't decide between the two.

Ispher said:

The "do this to do that" argument is only one of several.

'Discard after equipping at the start of your turn' has multiple possible meanings. Adding the word 'immediately' after discard eliminates some of those possible meanings and leaves wit the one you have chosen. However the card(s) do not say immediately so you are unreasonably changing the meaning of the card by insisting it shold be immediate.
Discarding at the end of your turn (assuming you equipped the item at the start of turn equip step), for example, follows exactly the letter of the cards. The hero has discarded the item after 'equipping at the start of your turn' and therefore can claim the benefits.

The main reason people don't follow this is because they mistakenly think that there is no material reason for the 'after equipping at the start of turn' part of the text, but they are wrong. The text as it is forces the hero to have the item equipped by the end of his 'start of turn equip step (step 2 IIRC)' and thus it takes up an 'other' slot that turn.

I do agree that all the items should be played the same way.

From Thundercles
A) Equipping at the "start" of a hero's turn (i.e. step 2 of the turn sequence) is not an action. Those come later.
B) How are you supposed to equip something at the start of the turn if you can't equip anything at the start of the turn? The card is either referring to or explicitly defining the step 2 "free" equip as being part of the "start" of a hero's turn. Therefore, it follows that step 2 "free" equip is part of the class of all "start of turn" effects.

Alternately, the card is in error and has been since its printing, and is therefore completely unusable in its current state, since there would be no way to equip it a the start of the turn in order to trigger the desired effect. I really can't decide between the two.

A) Sort of agreed. It is not an Action, but it is an action rather than an effect. That is, it is something the hero does and chooses. The FAQ reference explicitly says that start-of-turn effects must be completed before doing the rest of the turn. Rest of the turn, in this context, IMO includes non-effect start-of-turn things.

B) Yes, Step 2 is part of the 'start of turn'. 'Start of turn' is actually a complex thing that includes several steps and actions (small a) in both the heores turn and the OLs turn.
Note that you must discard after equiping at the start of turn (step 2).
Therefore you cannot discard before step 2 is complete and quite clearly (from the FAQ), 'start of turn' effects must go first.
Thus it is not legal to use these items to prevent bleed etc from taking effect.

The cards are not brilliantly written (the fault lying not in the cards but in the lack of explicit clarity on the whole 'start of turn' thing), but they are not in error, not broken, and completely useable.

Technically, I was just devil's advocating, but thank you, Corbon, for providing additional knowledge. I noted that Ispher was attacking the premise that equipping couldn't come before effects, but that isn't really the point of contention. It's the discarding that matters, just as you say. I like the idea of the end of the "start of turn" sequence also being the end of the equip and suffer effects phase.

This would all be easier if they had just kept the step nomenclature. Effects trigger during step 1, discard anytime/immediately after equipping in step 2, etc.

I must agree with Corbon on this one, effects go off just as equipping happens ergo discarding happens after effects because it cannot happen until equipping (and by proxy any effect) resolves.

In the past, I've personally ruled that the crystal can be discarded any time after a hero equips it in step 2, including during the OL's turn, so it operates as kind of an emergency superpotion. I like the way that works (and I'm usually the OL).

i always thought its "discard at the start of your turn. the item must be equipped" sorta way.

Ispher said:

We always read it like this:

Crystal of Tival: "Discard (after equipping) at the start of your turn to recover 6 wounds and restore your fatigue to its maximum value"

Amulet of Healing: "Discard (after equipping) at the start of your turn. Restore your wounds and fatigue to their maximum values."

Jinn's Lamp: "Discard (after equipping) at the start of your turn. You and all adjacent heroes recover 8 wounds and restore your fatigue to its maximum value."

With this i try to point out the way we see the sentence: the "after equiping" is between ( ) because we think it only points out you can use it when you have it equipped: When not equipped you can't use it at the start of your turn.....
So for us the Hero can choose his/her own order of events, including these 3 items

Shmoozer said:

I like that reading, although it does make the other part of this thread - the "what constitutes start of turn" debate - much more important. Namely, if equipping in step 2 is NOT part of the "start of turn" then you won't be able to use these items on the same turn you equip them.

Having had a day or so to mull over the "start of turn" debate, I seem to recall a ruling on the Overlord side that said "start of turn means everything before the OL activates his first figure." This covers multiple "steps" on the OL turn sequence, ie: drawing cards, spawning, etc. He can use "start of turn" cards at any time so long as he does it all before he actually begins moving/attacking with monsters on the board. Given that ruling for the OL, it seems only fair to apply the same logic to heroes. That is to say, all steps prior to declaring an Action and doing something on the board count as the "start of the hero's turn." In this way, the hero could equip and use the crystal (et al) on the same turn they are equipped.

This would also overrule my previous post where I said the crystal could not be used before Bleed. Unless there's something more specific about lingering effects that I'm forgetting, they would just need to be resolved before the hero takes an Action. I'm prepared to accept this may not be correct (after all it is the opposite of what I initially said) so I would appreciate if anyone could point to some specific rules for lingering effects that might shed light on this idea.

There are so many things "happening" or "to be done" at the start of the turn that either 1) you try to put an order in this mess, by finding FAQ answers that seem to put an order in it (like I tried to do), or 2) you homerule an order yourself, or 3) you let complete freedom to the heroes to suffer/do whatever they want in the order they want as long as they haven't yet spent a movement point, attacked or used fatigue.

It would, however, be great to have an official answer on this, so that these discussions don't pop up again and again and again and remain unresolved.

Steve-O said:

Back to the quotation above. This reading is not really reasonable for two reasons.
First, you can't use (in this case, discard for effect) any unequipped item.
DJitD pg 8
A hero cannot use an item in his pack, though he can equip it later in the game.
Therefore any discarding for effect must by definition be after the item is equipped! So if (and only if) you choose this reading you now have extra unnecessary words in there that do nothing but create confusion.
Second, it is also unnecessarily restrictive (meaning you are creating a restriction that is not definitively required by the wording). The wording can legitimately be read as
a) "(after equipping) at the start of your turn" or as
b) "after (equipping at the start of your turn)".
It seems to me to be really ...silly... to deliberately choose a reading which disallows a legitimate reading and means that part of the sentence is unnecessary and only adds confusion. Especially when the other reading makes perfect sense, requires all the words in the sentence in exactly that order, and creates an interesting minor penalty/restriction that has meaningful game results.
Further, it also makes these already weak items even weaker as you then cannot use them the same turn you acquired them.
See below for further notes on 'start of turn'.

FAQ pg4
Q: What is the proper timing of events that occur “at the beginning of a player’s turn”?
A: When multiple events may occur “at the beginning of a player’s turn,” such as a hero affected by multiple different status effects like Burn and Bleed, that player may decide in which order to resolve them. The player must resolve all “start of turn” effects before proceeding with the rest of his turn.
I can't see that the use of 'effects' here is important. It can reasonably be read as all 'events' at the start of turn rather than differentiating between 'effects' and 'actions' (small a), and indeed, both question and answer initially talk of events rather than effects.. Is playing a power card an 'effect'? Equipping? Spawning? I don't think any of these are 'effects' but I think the rule is covering everything. It looks to me like the answerer has used a couple of effects as examples and then confused his wording slightly for the second part of the answer.
There just isn't enough reasonable evidence to justify that restriction (effects before other events) given the imprecise terminology often used throughout the rules and FAQ.

Start of Turn
FAQ pg 4 (above)
DJitD pg8
At the start of a hero’s turn, he refreshes all of his exhausted cards by returning them to their upright position. (Step 1)
(Step 2: Equip Items) Next, a hero must choose which items he is using for the turn
DJitD pg9
Important: The overlord may play cards that say “Play at the start of your turn” any time before activating his first monster for the turn.
Note: This includes power cards, spawns and some events/traps. Since spawning is Step 2, by definition the OL 'start of turn' must therefore include both step 1 and step 2. Power cards, which say "Play this card at the start of your turn" and also have the rule (DJitD Pg12) that they can be played on the overlord’s turn before activating any monsters in step 3 are further evidence of this.
It is therefore a reasonable possibility that the hero 'start of turn' also includes step 1 and step 2 and all start of turn effects and actions must be concluded before 'activating' (choosing an Action) the hero.
Combine that with the treasure item wordings, which only make real sense if equipping (step 2) is part of the start of turn sequence for the heroes as well as the OL, and it all comes together rather neatly.

An interpretation where everything fits together neatly is inherently more likely to be correct than one that has additional problems and confusion surrounding it.

Steve-O said:

Back to the quotation above. This reading is not really reasonable for two reasons.
First, you can't use (in this case, discard for effect) any unequipped item.
DJitD pg 8
A hero cannot use an item in his pack, though he can equip it later in the game.
Therefore any discarding for effect must by definition be after the item is equipped! So if (and only if) you choose this reading you now have extra unnecessary words in there that do nothing but create confusion.
Second, it is also unnecessarily restrictive (meaning you are creating a restriction that is not definitively required by the wording). The wording can legitimately be read as
a) "(after equipping) at the start of your turn" or as
b) "after (equipping at the start of your turn)".
It seems to me to be really ...silly... to deliberately choose a reading which disallows a legitimate reading and means that part of the sentence is unnecessary and only adds confusion. Especially when the other reading makes perfect sense, requires all the words in the sentence in exactly that order, and creates an interesting minor penalty/restriction that has meaningful game results.
Further, it also makes these already weak items even weaker as you then cannot use them the same turn you acquired them.
See below for further notes on 'start of turn'.

FAQ pg4
Q: What is the proper timing of events that occur “at the beginning of a player’s turn”?
A: When multiple events may occur “at the beginning of a player’s turn,” such as a hero affected by multiple different status effects like Burn and Bleed, that player may decide in which order to resolve them. The player must resolve all “start of turn” effects before proceeding with the rest of his turn.
I can't see that the use of 'effects' here is important. It can reasonably be read as all 'events' at the start of turn rather than differentiating between 'effects' and 'actions' (small a), and indeed, both question and answer initially talk of events rather than effects.. Is playing a power card an 'effect'? Equipping? Spawning? I don't think any of these are 'effects' but I think the rule is covering everything. It looks to me like the answerer has used a couple of effects as examples and then confused his wording slightly for the second part of the answer.
There just isn't enough reasonable evidence to justify that restriction (effects before other events) given the imprecise terminology often used throughout the rules and FAQ.

Start of Turn
FAQ pg 4 (above)
DJitD pg8
At the start of a hero’s turn, he refreshes all of his exhausted cards by returning them to their upright position. (Step 1)
(Step 2: Equip Items) Next, a hero must choose which items he is using for the turn
DJitD pg9
Important: The overlord may play cards that say “Play at the start of your turn” any time before activating his first monster for the turn.
Note: This includes power cards, spawns and some events/traps. Since spawning is Step 2, by definition the OL 'start of turn' must therefore include both step 1 and step 2. Power cards, which say "Play this card at the start of your turn" and also have the rule (DJitD Pg12) that they can be played on the overlord’s turn before activating any monsters in step 3 are further evidence of this.
It is therefore a reasonable possibility that the hero 'start of turn' also includes step 1 and step 2 and all start of turn effects and actions must be concluded before 'activating' (choosing an Action) the hero.
Combine that with the treasure item wordings, which only make real sense if equipping (step 2) is part of the start of turn sequence for the heroes as well as the OL, and it all comes together rather neatly.

An interpretation where everything fits together neatly is inherently more likely to be correct than one that has additional problems and confusion surrounding it.

Corbon said:

Good stuff Corbon. I like simple rulings, so I accept this unequivocally.