I think a difference of opinion is that I don't consider Ackbar to be any more "Niche" than Mon Mothma...

Or General Cracken...

Or General Dodonna...

Or Garm Bel Iblis...

Or General Madine....

Or Commander Sato.......

...

All of them require a measure (not a modicum, a measure) of thought into what you are including in your fleet, to get maximum effect... ALL of them...

As usual we disagree, obviously that is great and encouraged!

Dodonna does not need to be built around and is one of only two commanders in the entire game that works for squadrons. You don't need to do anything for his ability to trigger, in fact you opponent can trigger it for you with asteroids. He works with every ship in almost every circumstance. Nothing niche about him.

Crackin is more limited but works well with 63% of ships counting the pelta. Not great with yavaris but works well with other nebs. Can't consider that niche personally.

Garm I could get on board with him being semi niche. But at least he is semi cheap and doesn't require you to do anything and didn't prevent you from doing anything.

Madine imo, and I know others disagree, is garbage right now. He has very limiting requirements to get the full use of a high cost especially compared to his imperial counter part. He does not significantly aid many ships.

Sato an extremely high cost for what amounts to, on paper, very little. Not to mention the gymnastics required to make his Ability work. He does work with virtually every ship though.

Bonus round

Ackbar crazy cost, prevents front and rear arc shots if used which in turn eliminates overall dice and damage if double arcing, 50% of rebels ships' best arc is their front arc.... Garbage.

Forgot mothma in game does not prevent you from doing anything. Does slightly limit you in fleet creation though, but you still have access to 75% of ships so by no means niche. Huge benefit for her cost.

Just my ten cents, my two cents are free.

Yep. Certainly a difference in opinion.

You're happy with "Some Effect". I'm looking for "Maximum Effect."

Yep. Certainly a difference in opinion.

You're happy with "Some Effect". I'm looking for "Maximum Effect."

Actually I'm not. My point was you can achieve maximum and still have most of the ships available to you. Therefore not niche you still have plenty of freedom.

However, if you build a list for every commander, you will obviously do better.

I think this is what Dras was getting at. At this point the argument is basically over how much building towards your commander is required for it to count as "niche," which is semantics.

I think you got the one and only like Dras has ever given. At least that I have ever seen.

I warranted a Dras like last night. It was the happiest day of my life.

I legitimately believed he didnt know where the button was.

I'm usually very slow and measured with Likes. The "Words out of my mouth" should apply.

I used to give them much more often in the Rules Forums, but, y'know, a lot of it was beaten out of me.

Regardless,

I'm trying to be more respectful.

Jibes do not make it easier

Thanks for all of the responses!

There were some interesting ideas with Sato and how to get the most out of him. His cost in points and gamestate are kinda high, but I can imagine building a fleet that he benefited.

Interesting discussion there at the end regarding the niche-iness of various admirals.

It seems like FFG is does not want squadron-less fleets since they are releasing Sato. Pretty interesting since a quite a few people want to play without squads, but going without them to a tournament post wave 5 can be very risky.

I'm usually very slow and measured with Likes.

That's why it means more to get one. The Golden Thumbs-Up.

It's like being Employee of the Week: it's kind of silly, but it does make you feel a little bit good.

Now if I could just leverage that into a good parking spot at work...

It seems like FFG is does not want squadron-less fleets since they are releasing Sato. Pretty interesting since a quite a few people want to play without squads, but going without them to a tournament post wave 5 can be very risky.

After listening to Worlds coverage I'm pretty sure that's the case (or at least a design goal for waves 4-6).

It seems like FFG is does not want squadron-less fleets since they are releasing Sato. Pretty interesting since a quite a few people want to play without squads, but going without them to a tournament post wave 5 can be very risky.

Gallant Heaven's stock just rose even more.

Hmm...I gave up on Dodonna's Pride a long time ago, but Sato makes me think about: CR90A with DP, plus another ship with Toryn Farr.

Yes, my hearty thanks to everyone who has contributed. We needed some good discussion.

I will agree that fleet-building with him is going to be trickier than most commanders, though. You need to make sure you've got enough ships that he benefits (as well as the right upgrades, etc.) AS WELL AS enough squadrons to reliably trigger him. If you over-invest in squadrons, those could have been ships (the real thing Sato benefits). If you under-invest in squadrons, your ships will not benefit from Sato's ability reliably, making those points poorly spent. That's not even getting to the actual squadron composition - do you want mostly speedy A-Wings? Do you want low-maintenance Rogues? Howsabout high hull but slower squadrons like X-Wings and YT-1300s that might struggle to get there but are difficult to remove once they reach their target? Should you include Intel? If so, how much? Is it worth it to include a flotilla or two that Sato won't benefit so you can use X-Wings and such with Bomber Command Centers?

I'm sure a baseline will eventually emerge with play experience, but there are a lot of considerations and a lot of moving parts involved.

Sato and Tycho are always going to be paired for me. Flotilla with BC will be moving Tycho to my next target all game. I'm considering Shara as well because the counter is scary to deal with so perhaps she won't get shot as much.

Sato and Tycho are always going to be paired for me. Flotilla with BC will be moving Tycho to my next target all game. I'm considering Shara as well because the counter is scary to deal with so perhaps she won't get shot as much.

Just use squadron tokens to move him around, man.

Sato and Tycho are always going to be paired for me. Flotilla with BC will be moving Tycho to my next target all game. I'm considering Shara as well because the counter is scary to deal with so perhaps she won't get shot as much.

Just use squadron tokens to move him around, man.

Flotilla gives me an activation and is cheap so doesn't really bother me too much.

Issue there is that in heavy number rebel lists you need every point you can find, and paying an extra 12 points over dodonna.... Idk about that..... There goes a hwk

It sounds like you only play Dodonna, then?

Pretty much.

I just like how he paves the way for a new tactic drawn from maritime combat circa late 20th century: spotter aircraft. I'm wondering if there will be a squadron key word that capitalizes on that tactic in the future. Like: spotter - friendly ships attacking event ships you are at range 1-2 of may reroll two dice.

Funny part on Sato is that you "just" need to keep a single fighter in range to get him working. It is not hindered by engagement, heavy, whatever.. throw that YT-1300 garbage truck at something and the combo will work. Given the long-range dominance rebels which rebels can build around and the large footprint of, well, the larger imperial ships you might not need too much squadron commands to keep what should just be a regular freighter around an ISD for most of the game.

Have to wait for the rest of the wave of cause, as the arquitens is still shrouded and might well be a valid centerpiece for a an imperial long-range MSU build, against which Sato might see some troubles..

RE: just subbing out plane jane reds to blacks and that not being so great: one thing I'm interested in is just removing VARIANCE as opposed to the strict +.25 dmg out of the red dice. It's like how 8 A-wings and 8 X-wings (pre-BCC days) weren't the same in terms of bombing where I would actually prefer non-bomber black over red most of the time.

Especially with small dice pools (i.e. the kind typically gathered at long range) switching a red to a black is downright juicy, especially in terms of token mitigation. This becomes really key when getting around evades vs kiting strategies as well- getting those two hits over two attacks reliably vs the one double hit can make all the difference at red range.

I guess I'm also just reflecting a little bit on the Defiance title and how underwhelming that die seemed on paper, but how much utility that can actually get you over the course of an actual game.

Ok, tested a game with Sato and admittedly I flew bad but I felt like I was spending way to much time trying to set up his ability and really the ROI did not pay off. Only one game though!!!!! I do want him to work!!