If I put an apple on your desk and you ignore it. have you gained an apple? Yes.

The apple isn't staying on my desk. The Shield token is going back to the Supply. Your analogy would be more like...

If I put an apply on your desk, you ignore it and I return it back to the store I got it from, have you gained an apple? I still say no.

You gained an apple and returned it. how is that not a gain? the net result is not a "gain", but the net result doesnt need to happen in order to trigger qui-gons ability.

I set an apple on your desk (Gain), Qui gon ability goes off remove apple add apple, You have gained an apple.

To go back to the shield example, I understand your position to be that you physically put a shield on the characters card, count the number of shields on the card and then return them back to the Supply until you are down to 3. Is that correct?

Essentially that is what is happening. You are gaining 2 shields put them on your card, you have a total of 5, rules state that you cannot have more than 3 and you remove 2. You have gained 2 and also ending with exactly 3.

Now during play you can take shortcuts and assume that anything over 3 is a value of 0 and not go through the extra effort to place the tokens just to have them removed a second later, but that doesnt change the function of the action that is taking place.

Essentially that is what is happening. You are gaining 2 shields put them on your card, you have a total of 5, rules state that you cannot have more than 3 and you remove 2. You have gained 2 and also ending with exactly 3.

Now during play you can take shortcuts and assume that anything over 3 is a value of 0 and not go through the extra effort to place the tokens just to have them removed a second later, but that doesnt change the function of the action that is taking place.

The rules contradict what you're saying. The rules say that when you would give a shield, you ignore it. The rules don't say that when you would give a shield, you go ahead and give it and then remove it. Subtle, but important difference. You're creating steps that don't exist in the rules.

Ok so the process would be on a character with 0 shields prior to this is: I resolve a die with 2 Shield on it. I grab 2 tokens and place it on the character. End action.

You have said your self resolving a die is the same as giving a shield, but different than gaining a shield. Lukas states giving and gaining are interchangeable, what is the problem here. Please dont cite the RRG needs updating crap... we have gone over that already,

The process with Qui-Gon:

1: I resolve a die with 2 shields on it. (Any normal situation this would be considered Gaining/giving 2 shields. IE: getting 2 shield tokens and placing on character)

2: Qui-gon ability activate, " BEFORE" gaining 1 or more shields, see above.

A: Remove 1 shield, deal 1 damage.

3: Qui-Gon is now a legal target to receive 1 shield any excess is ignored.

Ignore: doesnt mean you cannot receive shields, it just means anything in excess is not tracked our counted towards your shield token limit.

Ok so the process would be on a character with 0 shields prior to this is: I resolve a die with 2 Shield on it. I grab 2 tokens and place it on the character. End action.

You have said your self resolving a die is the same as giving a shield, but different than gaining a shield. Lukas states giving and gaining are interchangeable, what is the problem here. Please dont cite the RRG needs updating crap... we have gone over that already,

The process with Qui-Gon:

1: I resolve a die with 2 shields on it. (Any normal situation this would be considered Gaining/giving 2 shields. IE: getting 2 shield tokens and placing on character)

2: Qui-gon ability activate, " BEFORE" gaining 1 or more shields, see above.

A: Remove 1 shield, deal 1 damage.

3: Qui-Gon is now a legal target to receive 1 shield any excess is ignored.

Ignore: doesnt mean you cannot receive shields, it just means anything in excess is not tracked our counted towards your shield token limit.

There isn't really any point in arguing anymore. The gods have spoken and we know the designer's intent. The rules do not unambiguously support the designer's intent, so I'll continue to say we need some clarifying text in the RRG.

It's counter-intuitive to say that a character has gained a shield when there is no increase in the number of shields he/she has if you understand "gain" to be associated with an increase in ownership.

I tend to think of the character/shield thing like a full cup of water. Sure, I can pour in as much as I want, but it's all just going to spill down the sides of the cup (be ignored). The cup is already full and isn't gaining any water. You and many others would presumably say that the cup gained water. I just can't wrap my head around using gain to cover situations where there is no increase.

Wow, I cannot believe this thread has gone on for three pages. Do we really need an FAQ for this? It's obvious that he can use his ability when he has 3 shields.

Qui Gon has 3 shields on him.

You resolve your die with 2 shield symbols on it.

Check game state to see if any ability is triggering, yes there is:

Before this character gains 1 or more shields, you may remove 1 of his shields to deal 1 damage to a character.

He has not gained any shields yet, but your hand is moving the two shields tokens towards him, your opponent is panicking at your clear intention to put shields on Qui Gon

So we are in the "before this character gains" state.

Remove one of his shields to trigger the effect.

Gain two shields, but you check to see the 3 max limit and so he only actually gains one.

I love to rules lawyer as much as anyone. I recently asked a question to Luke (the game designer, not the other one) about Force Training since I thought, where does it say I cannot choose both of the same options? But this thread is ridiculous. Someone's going to point out I'm being rude. Sorry about that.

Wow, I cannot believe this thread has gone on for three pages. Do we really need an FAQ for this? It's obvious that he can use his ability when he has 3 shields.

Qui Gon has 3 shields on him.

You resolve your die with 2 shield symbols on it.

Check game state to see if any ability is triggering, yes there is:

Before this character gains 1 or more shields, you may remove 1 of his shields to deal 1 damage to a character.

He has not gained any shields yet, but your hand is moving the two shields tokens towards him, your opponent is panicking at your clear intention to put shields on Qui Gon

So we are in the "before this character gains" state.

Remove one of his shields to trigger the effect.

Gain two shields, but you check to see the 3 max limit and so he only actually gains one.

I love to rules lawyer as much as anyone. I recently asked a question to Luke (the game designer, not the other one) about Force Training since I thought, where does it say I cannot choose both of the same options? But this thread is ridiculous. Someone's going to point out I'm being rude. Sorry about that.

I agree, this thread was solved on like page 2-3. However I am bored at work and so is the OP and that is why it has continued. I also submitted a ticket about force training, that will change my game play quite a bit.

Sweet, swirling onion rings... it lives...

Wow, I cannot believe this thread has gone on for three pages. Do we really need an FAQ for this? It's obvious that he can use his ability when he has 3 shields.

Qui Gon has 3 shields on him.

You resolve your die with 2 shield symbols on it.

Check game state to see if any ability is triggering, yes there is:

Before this character gains 1 or more shields, you may remove 1 of his shields to deal 1 damage to a character.

He has not gained any shields yet, but your hand is moving the two shields tokens towards him, your opponent is panicking at your clear intention to put shields on Qui Gon

So we are in the "before this character gains" state.

Remove one of his shields to trigger the effect.

Gain two shields, but you check to see the 3 max limit and so he only actually gains one.

I love to rules lawyer as much as anyone. I recently asked a question to Luke (the game designer, not the other one) about Force Training since I thought, where does it say I cannot choose both of the same options? But this thread is ridiculous. Someone's going to point out I'm being rude. Sorry about that.

You're not being rude. It's just not obvious to everyone and really does require some clarification. The ability triggers off of gaining a shield. The rules tell us that when we try to give a shield to a character who is already at 3, that the shield is ignored. It's perfectly reasonable to assume that if it's ignored that it's not actually gained. Lukas's email makes it clear that they consider ignored shields to be gained shields. That just feels very weird and counter-intuitive.

I fail to see how you can argue with this wording. Give/Gain is interchangeable. In order to resolve steps 1-2 you must first initiate step A: at which point triggers Qui-Gons ability.

A: SHIELD

Gives a character shields equal to the value of the symbol.

1. All shields must be given to a single character. A player cannot split the shields from a single die (or a die that has been modified) among different characters. When resolving multiple dice in the same action, each die can give shields to a different character.
2. A character cannot have more than 3 shields. Any excess shields that would be given to the character are ignored.

Wow, I cannot believe this thread has gone on for three pages. Do we really need an FAQ for this? It's obvious that he can use his ability when he has 3 shields.

Qui Gon has 3 shields on him.

You resolve your die with 2 shield symbols on it.

Check game state to see if any ability is triggering, yes there is:

Before this character gains 1 or more shields, you may remove 1 of his shields to deal 1 damage to a character.

He has not gained any shields yet, but your hand is moving the two shields tokens towards him, your opponent is panicking at your clear intention to put shields on Qui Gon

So we are in the "before this character gains" state.

Remove one of his shields to trigger the effect.

Gain two shields, but you check to see the 3 max limit and so he only actually gains one.

I love to rules lawyer as much as anyone. I recently asked a question to Luke (the game designer, not the other one) about Force Training since I thought, where does it say I cannot choose both of the same options? But this thread is ridiculous. Someone's going to point out I'm being rude. Sorry about that.

I agree, this thread was solved on like page 2-3. However I am bored at work and so is the OP and that is why it has continued. I also submitted a ticket about force training, that will change my game play quite a bit.

Agreed. So bored... My options are to carry on this conversation or read a 200 page manual about recent Department of Labor rules impacting a small subset of retirement accounts. I'm about 100 pages in and have yet to read about any lightsaber duels. They really need to jazz these things up a bit.

I fail to see how you can argue with this wording. Give/Gain is interchangeable. In order to resolve steps 1-2 you must first initiate step A: at which point triggers Qui-Gons ability.

A: SHIELD

Gives a character shields equal to the value of the symbol.

1. All shields must be given to a single character. A player cannot split the shields from a single die (or a die that has been modified) among different characters. When resolving multiple dice in the same action, each die can give shields to a different character.
2. A character cannot have more than 3 shields. Any excess shields that would be given to the character are ignored.

The word "gain" doesn't appear in the rules you quoted. How are you able to use that rules text to tell you that all shields that are given are gained? Not all damage that is dealt is taken. "Overkill" damage is ignored and doesn't count as taken. I don't know why it's so ridiculous to read that and think that maybe not all shields that are given are gained. "Overkill" shields that are ignored could easily not count as gained. The rules offer zero advice on the matter.

The ability triggers off of gaining a shield.

But it doesn't, it triggers before the gaining of a shield. As long as you have one shield to give you activate the ability before you give the shield.

The ability triggers off of gaining a shield.

But it doesn't, it triggers before the gaining of a shield. As long as you have one shield to give you activate the ability before you give the shield.

The trigger condition is literally "gains 1 or more shields".

You have to gain a shield to trigger the ability... you just sort of rewind a heartbeat and resolve the ability before you complete gaining the shield.

I'm sorry, again, not trying to be rude, I just don't want an FAQ with 100 pages in it! Lol, I'm worried that's what will happen if we go by what may seem counter-intuitive to people.

That's why myself and others above me, perhaps at times being sarcastic, are trying to prove it's not counter-intuitive at all. If we can explain the "game grammar" properly, we have hopefully avoid a 10 kilo FAQ.

In an effort to make Destiny more public friendly, the rules reference is admittedly sparser than prior LCGs or CCGs. Normally there would be an entire panel describing the "timing" of the game. For example:

Resolve the die (say, 2 shields).

Pay any costs associated with it.

Place die back on character sheet.

Assign the shields to a target, place the shield tokens by the target.

Check for any trigger effects for assignment of shields.

Move the shield tokens on to the target, any in excess of 3 tokens on the target may not be placed.

Additionally, Qui Gons card would say "When he is assigned one or more shields, you may remove a shield on him to do one damage", or some such.

I appreciate they have streamlined the rules but by no means is his ability counter-intuitive, friend.

The trigger condition is literally "gains 1 or more shields".

You have to gain a shield to trigger the ability... you just sort of rewind a heartbeat and resolve the ability before you complete gaining the shield.

How can you gain a shield to trigger an ability when the ability triggers before gaining a shield, it's impossible, you're jumping back and forth in the queue of events and triggers. You need the ability and intend to do it, then before proceeding trigger the ability, after the ability you follow through with the intend.

I'm sorry, again, not trying to be rude, I just don't want an FAQ with 100 pages in it! Lol, I'm worried that's what will happen if we go by what may seem counter-intuitive to people.

That's why myself and others above me, perhaps at times being sarcastic, are trying to prove it's not counter-intuitive at all. If we can explain the "game grammar" properly, we have hopefully avoid a 10 kilo FAQ.

In an effort to make Destiny more public friendly, the rules reference is admittedly sparser than prior LCGs or CCGs. Normally there would be an entire panel describing the "timing" of the game. For example:

Resolve the die (say, 2 shields).

Pay any costs associated with it.

Place die back on character sheet.

Assign the shields to a target, place the shield tokens by the target.

Check for any trigger effects for assignment of shields.

Move the shield tokens on to the target, any in excess of 3 tokens on the target may not be placed.

Additionally, Qui Gons card would say "When he is assigned one or more shields, you may remove a shield on him to do one damage", or some such.

I appreciate they have streamlined the rules but by no means is his ability counter-intuitive, friend.

If Qui-Gon's ability read "Before this character is given 1 or more shields, you may...", I would have no issue. Instead, the trigger condition requires that he actually gains a shield. It is absolutely counter-intuitive for many people to consider an ignored shield to be a gained shield. I understand gain to include a component of increase. There is no component of increase when a shield is ignored.

I fail to see how you can argue with this wording. Give/Gain is interchangeable. In order to resolve steps 1-2 you must first initiate step A: at which point triggers Qui-Gons ability.

A: SHIELD

Gives a character shields equal to the value of the symbol.

1. All shields must be given to a single character. A player cannot split the shields from a single die (or a die that has been modified) among different characters. When resolving multiple dice in the same action, each die can give shields to a different character.
2. A character cannot have more than 3 shields. Any excess shields that would be given to the character are ignored.

The word "gain" doesn't appear in the rules you quoted. How are you able to use that rules text to tell you that all shields that are given are gained? Not all damage that is dealt is taken. "Overkill" damage is ignored and doesn't count as taken. I don't know why it's so ridiculous to read that and think that maybe not all shields that are given are gained. "Overkill" shields that are ignored could easily not count as gained. The rules offer zero advice on the matter.

You are too stuck on the wording of "Gains"

A: Gains resources equal to the value of the symbol.

B: Gives a character shields equal to the value of the symbol

How do you not interpret giving 2 shield tokens not the same as gaining 2 shield tokens?

The trigger condition is literally "gains 1 or more shields".

You have to gain a shield to trigger the ability... you just sort of rewind a heartbeat and resolve the ability before you complete gaining the shield.

How can you gain a shield to trigger an ability when the ability triggers before gaining a shield, it's impossible, you're jumping back and forth in the queue of events and triggers. You need the ability and intend to do it, then before proceeding trigger the ability, after the ability you follow through with the intend.

Yeah, mechanically it's a little weird. I'm challenging the wording. I'm saying that if I give a shield to, say, a Stormtrooper who already has 3 shields, that extra shield is ignored and not gained by the Stormtrooper. Ergo, abilities that trigger off a character gaining a shield would not trigger.

The designers are saying that the extra shield is ignored AND gained. Just seems counter-intuitive. How can a shield that is ignored be gained? If I'm at 1, someone give me another and I end up at 2, I clearly gained a shield. If I'm at 3, someone gives me another, which I ignore and I end up at 3, it's much less clear whether or not I gained a shield. I have literally the same number of shields I had before someone tried to give me one.

I fail to see how you can argue with this wording. Give/Gain is interchangeable. In order to resolve steps 1-2 you must first initiate step A: at which point triggers Qui-Gons ability.

A: SHIELD

Gives a character shields equal to the value of the symbol.

1. All shields must be given to a single character. A player cannot split the shields from a single die (or a die that has been modified) among different characters. When resolving multiple dice in the same action, each die can give shields to a different character.
2. A character cannot have more than 3 shields. Any excess shields that would be given to the character are ignored.

The word "gain" doesn't appear in the rules you quoted. How are you able to use that rules text to tell you that all shields that are given are gained? Not all damage that is dealt is taken. "Overkill" damage is ignored and doesn't count as taken. I don't know why it's so ridiculous to read that and think that maybe not all shields that are given are gained. "Overkill" shields that are ignored could easily not count as gained. The rules offer zero advice on the matter.

You are too stuck on the wording of "Gains"

A: Gains resources equal to the value of the symbol.

B: Gives a character shields equal to the value of the symbol

How do you not interpret giving 2 shield tokens not the same as gaining 2 shield tokens?

Resources have no upper limit. If we could only have 5 resources at a time, I would say excess resource that are given aren't gained.

The trigger condition is literally "gains 1 or more shields".

You have to gain a shield to trigger the ability... you just sort of rewind a heartbeat and resolve the ability before you complete gaining the shield.

How can you gain a shield to trigger an ability when the ability triggers before gaining a shield, it's impossible, you're jumping back and forth in the queue of events and triggers. You need the ability and intend to do it, then before proceeding trigger the ability, after the ability you follow through with the intend.

Yeah, mechanically it's a little weird. I'm challenging the wording. I'm saying that if I give a shield to, say, a Stormtrooper who already has 3 shields, that extra shield is ignored and not gained by the Stormtrooper. Ergo, abilities that trigger off a character gaining a shield would not trigger.

The designers are saying that the extra shield is ignored AND gained. Just seems counter-intuitive. How can a shield that is ignored be gained? If I'm at 1, someone give me another and I end up at 2, I clearly gained a shield. If I'm at 3, someone gives me another, which I ignore and I end up at 3, it's much less clear whether or not I gained a shield. I have literally the same number of shields I had before someone tried to give me one.

I saw the reply from Lukas but don't remember anything from him about ignoring and not gained, but it's been a long thread so I could have missed it. I honestly think you are making it way more complicated than it needs to be, you don't need to attempt to give a shield and class that as a gain even thought is already at 3. Just follow what it says on the card in the order it says it. It says before he gains a shield so do the ability before you give him a shield. It doesn't matter at this point if he has 3 or not because you haven't got to the stage of giving him one, by the time you get to actually placing a shield on him he won't have 3, so there is no need to debate ignoring and gaining, it's simply give him a shield.

The trigger condition is literally "gains 1 or more shields".

You have to gain a shield to trigger the ability... you just sort of rewind a heartbeat and resolve the ability before you complete gaining the shield.

How can you gain a shield to trigger an ability when the ability triggers before gaining a shield, it's impossible, you're jumping back and forth in the queue of events and triggers. You need the ability and intend to do it, then before proceeding trigger the ability, after the ability you follow through with the intend.

Yeah, mechanically it's a little weird. I'm challenging the wording. I'm saying that if I give a shield to, say, a Stormtrooper who already has 3 shields, that extra shield is ignored and not gained by the Stormtrooper. Ergo, abilities that trigger off a character gaining a shield would not trigger.

The designers are saying that the extra shield is ignored AND gained. Just seems counter-intuitive. How can a shield that is ignored be gained? If I'm at 1, someone give me another and I end up at 2, I clearly gained a shield. If I'm at 3, someone gives me another, which I ignore and I end up at 3, it's much less clear whether or not I gained a shield. I have literally the same number of shields I had before someone tried to give me one.

I saw the reply from Lukas but don't remember anything from him about ignoring and not gained, but it's been a long thread so I could have missed it. I honestly think you are making it way more complicated than it needs to be, you don't need to attempt to give a shield and class that as a gain even thought is already at 3. Just follow what it says on the card in the order it says it. It says before he gains a shield so do the ability before you give him a shield. It doesn't matter at this point if he has 3 or not because you haven't got to the stage of giving him one, by the time you get to actually placing a shield on him he won't have 3, so there is no need to debate ignoring and gaining, it's simply give him a shield.

It says before he gains 1 or more... my contention is that if he's already at 3, he's not about to gain 1 or more. I would expect the act of gaining to create a gain. Ignoring shields creates no gain. It's poor word choice and needs to be changed in the RRG. The designers are using "gains" to include situations where no gain occurs.

It says before he gains 1 or more... my contention is that if he's already at 3, he's not about to gain 1 or more . I would expect the act of gaining to create a gain. Ignoring shields creates no gain. It's poor word choice and needs to be changed in the RRG. The designers are using "gains" to include situations where no gain occurs.

That bit that I have made bold, isn't mentioned anywhere in the ability and I think it's this bit that is causing the confusion, it doesn't say check that he can gain a shield. It says before he gains one or more, so before you even check that he can gain a shield you do the ability.