I'm at a loss as how this thread is still going.

I'm at a loss as how this thread is still going.

Because grammar nazi.

Ryertangent thanks for reposting those, I saw one of them earlier but must have missed the other.

It says before he gains 1 or more... my contention is that if he's already at 3, he's not about to gain 1 or more . I would expect the act of gaining to create a gain. Ignoring shields creates no gain. It's poor word choice and needs to be changed in the RRG. The designers are using "gains" to include situations where no gain occurs.

That bit that I have made bold, isn't mentioned anywhere in the ability and I think it's this bit that is causing the confusion, it doesn't say check that he can gain a shield . It says before he gains one or more, so before you even check that he can gain a shield you do the ability.

This right here.

It says before he gains 1 or more... my contention is that if he's already at 3, he's not about to gain 1 or more . I would expect the act of gaining to create a gain. Ignoring shields creates no gain. It's poor word choice and needs to be changed in the RRG. The designers are using "gains" to include situations where no gain occurs.

That bit that I have made bold, isn't mentioned anywhere in the ability and I think it's this bit that is causing the confusion, it doesn't say check that he can gain a shield . It says before he gains one or more, so before you even check that he can gain a shield you do the ability.

This right here.

No, it says that he must be about to gain a shield. If you haven't bothered to check whether or not he can gain a shield, how do you know whether or not he's about to gain a shield? Seems like you're ducking out of the queue well before you hit your trigger condition and NOT immediately before.

No, it says that he must be about to gain a shield. If you haven't bothered to check whether or not he can gain a shield, how do you know whether or not he's about to gain a shield? Seems like you're ducking out of the queue well before you hit your trigger condition and NOT immediately before.

The exact card text.

"Before this character gains 1 or more shields, you may remove 1 of his shields to deal 1 damage to a character."

Nowhere does it say he must be about to gain a shield. follow that quote step by step, don't add words, don't add steps, follow it exactly as it says in that order and you can't go wrong.

And again you are hung up on the word gains. Qui-Gon is eligible to gain a shield(s) the value of it will just be ignored, if he doesnt resolve his ability before the die is resolved.

Good grief. So much angst over nothing.

Assuming he has a shield to lose before you start, Qui-Gon's ability itself ensures that he will ALWAYS have "room" to gain a shield. If he is at 3, you drop one to deal a damage and he gets it back. Same for 1 or 2 shields. One goes away per ability, then he gains shields. So his ability by DEFINITION means he always has room to gain a shield because his ability makes "room" for it.

How in the hell is this worthy of 10 pages?

Good grief. So much angst over nothing.

Assuming he has a shield to lose before you start, Qui-Gon's ability itself ensures that he will ALWAYS have "room" to gain a shield. If he is at 3, you drop one to deal a damage and he gets it back. Same for 1 or 2 shields. One goes away per ability, then he gains shields. So his ability by DEFINITION means he always has room to gain a shield because his ability makes "room" for it.

How in the hell is this worthy of 10 pages?

You can't use the resolution of Qui-Gon's ability as a requirement for triggering his ability. That's a solid catch-22.

No, it says that he must be about to gain a shield. If you haven't bothered to check whether or not he can gain a shield, how do you know whether or not he's about to gain a shield? Seems like you're ducking out of the queue well before you hit your trigger condition and NOT immediately before.

The exact card text.

"Before this character gains 1 or more shields, you may remove 1 of his shields to deal 1 damage to a character."

Nowhere does it say he must be about to gain a shield. follow that quote step by step, don't add words, don't add steps, follow it exactly as it says in that order and you can't go wrong.

Um... If something can only happen immediately before a character gains 1 or more shields, then that something would literally happen only when the character is about to gain 1 or more shields. I don't know how you could read this any other way.

And again you are hung up on the word gains. Qui-Gon is eligible to gain a shield(s) the value of it will just be ignored, if he doesnt resolve his ability before the die is resolved.

I am absolutely, 100% hung up on the word 'gains'. It's a poor choice of words. From a game perspective, and based on Lukas's response, giving a shield causes a gain even when there is no actual increase. Outside of the game, the word gain usually requires some sort of increase. I'm just saying we need an RRG clarification since a word is being used in an ambiguous way.

No, your refusing to accept any sort of clarification that doesnt explain the word gains and ignored.

Um... If something can only happen immediately before a character gains 1 or more shields, then that something would literally happen only when the character is about to gain 1 or more shields. I don't know how you could read this any other way.

Yes they are more or less the same thing and the reason I corrected you is because what you said was not the wording on the card. Constantly throughout this thread you have said things that are not written on the card, changed its wording, thrown in checks that aren't required, resolved things out of order. As with most cards in any FFG game if you stick to the exact wording on the card and follow it as it's written without trying to interpret what you think its means then 99% of the time most questions answer themselves and it just plays as it says.

And again you are hung up on the word gains. Qui-Gon is eligible to gain a shield(s) the value of it will just be ignored, if he doesnt resolve his ability before the die is resolved.

I am absolutely, 100% hung up on the word 'gains'. It's a poor choice of words. From a game perspective, and based on Lukas's response, giving a shield causes a gain even when there is no actual increase. Outside of the game, the word gain usually requires some sort of increase. I'm just saying we need an RRG clarification since a word is being used in an ambiguous way.

Kriswall, are you actually Bill Clinton?

"Before this character gains 1 or more shields, you may remove 1 of his shields to deal 1 damage to a character. "

" A character cannot have more than 3 shields. Any excess shields that would be given to the character are ignored. "

I do not see why this is an argument. It clearly states in the rules that you CAN ASSIGN a character more than 3 shields!!! Period. That means you can assign a 4th shield to Qui Gon. When you assign, but before you give it to him you remove one to do a damage. Then you give Qui Gon the 4th Shield, but now it is only his third so he keeps it.

"Before this character gains 1 or more shields, you may remove 1 of his shields to deal 1 damage to a character. "

" A character cannot have more than 3 shields. Any excess shields that would be given to the character are ignored. "

I do not see why this is an argument. It clearly states in the rules that you CAN ASSIGN a character more than 3 shields!!! Period. That means you can assign a 4th shield to Qui Gon. When you assign, but before you give it to him you remove one to do a damage. Then you give Qui Gon the 4th Shield, but now it is only his third so he keeps it.

Thank you! Was just looking that up in the SWD 1.1 reference, and you saved me some typing. It says " ignore the excess shields." not "ignore the ability that would put a shield on a character."

It also says "each character can have a max of 3 shields at one time." so:

Quigon has 3 shields. (time 1: 3 shields)

Ability targets Quigon to get another shield (time 2: still 3 shields)

Quigon's ability triggers in responce, removing a shield, putting him at 2 (time 3: now 2 shields)

Ability resloves and puts a shield on quigon. (time 4: back to 3 shields)

At no time Quigon has more than 3 shields.

You can't use the resolution of Qui-Gon's ability as a requirement for triggering his ability. That's a solid catch-22.

Welcome to the wonderful world of "before" triggers.

You can't use the resolution of Qui-Gon's ability as a requirement for triggering his ability. That's a solid catch-22.

Welcome to the wonderful world of "before" triggers.

My point is that if you decide not to use the ability, the trigger condition does not happen... so how are you triggering the ability? I keep reading something like "well, after the ability resolves, he's down 1, so he goes up 1 and there's your trigger". Does that seem reasonable? You're resolving the ability without the trigger condition so that you can create the trigger condition. Feels like cheating.

Maybe it's the wording. Imagine you had a support that said "Before a character is killed, exhaust this support to deal 20 damage to a character". First turn, before any character has any damage on it, you exhaust the card, deal 20 damage to a character (which kills it) and then proclaim that you followed the rules because you exhausted the support before a character was killed. Catch-22 in the same way. You're creating the trigger condition by resolving the triggered ability.

Oh boy, here we go again. You example doesnt match the point your trying to make.

Player Turn:

-Spend Action to resolve a 2 Shield Die (Check)

(2 shields are queued to be given to a character, whether or not he will actually receive a value that isnt ignored)

(Since 2 shields are queued to be given(Increased) to Qui-Gon, he is eligible to use his special as he will be gaining(Increasing), receiving a value of 2 shields.)

(Note how we havent checked to see if he actually would be gaining a value that isnt ignored, that isnt part of the trigger condition)

-Activate Before Trigger on Qui-Gon, since he is queued to receive(gain/given) 2 shields (not that will actually received an increase)

(-1 shield, deal 1 damage)

-Add 1 shield, ignore 2nd.

Qui Gon with 3 shields can always gain a shield. He just keeps it in a special place called the token pile. He can gain a million shields actually. He only stores 3 of them on his card, but can always gain more. He loves shields. For Qui Gon, Shields are a Christmas Miracle, and he loves to gain them.

Qui Gon would never refuse a shield. Much like Jabba would never refuse a free droid. Jabba doesn't always have room for his droids, so sometimes he stores them on his sail barge, much like Qui Gon stores his excess shields in the shield token pile where nobody can do anything with them... but the gain always happens. Give = gain, and X-Mas = Christmas. Money = Resources, and Coffee=Life.

Qui Gon with 3 shields can always gain a shield. He just keeps it in a special place called the token pile. He can gain a million shields actually. He only stores 3 of them on his card, but can always gain more. He loves shields. For Qui Gon, Shields are a Christmas Miracle, and he loves to gain them.

Qui Gon would never refuse a shield. Much like Jabba would never refuse a free droid. Jabba doesn't always have room for his droids, so sometimes he stores them on his sail barge, much like Qui Gon stores his excess shields in the shield token pile where nobody can do anything with them... but the gain always happens. Give = gain, and X-Mas = Christmas. Money = Resources, and Coffee=Life.

It feels like the simple answer to all this is: There's nothing in the rules that stops you assigning another shield to a character, it just states that they can't use it.

(not that this hasn't been stated already of course, I just wanted to contribute. )

Before you even say it, Qui-Gon is indeed Gaining a shield. It is just not added to his card and tracked.

Maybe it's the wording. Imagine you had a support that said "Before a character is killed, exhaust this support to deal 20 damage to a character". First turn, before any character has any damage on it, you exhaust the card, deal 20 damage to a character (which kills it) and then proclaim that you followed the rules because you exhausted the support before a character was killed. Catch-22 in the same way. You're creating the trigger condition by resolving the triggered ability.

That's actually exactly how that card would function.

Card checks: has a character been killed? No? then resolve.

So turn 1 you exaust to deal 20 damage to one opponent's (let's say) 3 characters. No character has been killed yet, so the ability resolves and deals 20 dam to a target character. wich (I assume) kills it.

Then it's your opponent's turn.

Now It's your turn and you want to exaust that card again to deal 20 dam to another charcter. The card checks "has a character been killed? and the answer is yes. And now no longer can resolve (because a character has already been killed. and you would have to exaust it before one was killed.)