Curious how everybody reads this.

The relevant rules...

Qui-Gon Jinn - "Before this character gains 1 or more shields, you may remove 1 of his shields to deal 1 damage to a character."

Shields - "A character cannot have more than 3 shields. Any excess shields that would be given to the character are ignored."

The question is... does Qui-Gon Jinn's ability work if he has three shields? My reading is that if he has three shields, you can assign him a shield, but it is ignored. As such, he's not ACTUALLY about to gain one or more shields, so my assumption is that the ability won't go off since the trigger isn't actually happening.

The trigger can only actually happen if the ability goes off... which requires that the trigger is going to happen... which can't unless the ability goes off... which requires that the trigger is going to happen... etc, etc.

My assumption is that the authors intend for the ability to work, but I don't think the rules as written allow it. I'm thinking that this needs an FAQ. It looks like Qui-Gon's ability only works if he has one or two shields. Having three makes it impossible for him to gain a shield, which in turn makes it impossible for his ability's trigger to occur.

Thoughts?

Exerp from RRG:

TRIGGERED ABILITIES

A triggered ability has a trigger condition and an effect. When

a triggered ability meets its trigger condition, the ability

resolves.There are two types of triggered abilities: ”after” and

“before” abilities.

••Triggered abilities exist independently of their source. Once

triggered, the entire ability resolves, even if the card it was

on leaves play.

TRIGGER CONDITION

A trigger condition indicates the timing point at which an

ability may be used, and always follows either the word “after”

or “before.” A trigger condition matches a specific occurrence

that takes place in the game.

Example: Qui-Gon Jinn ( r 37) is about to gain a shield, which

is the trigger condition for his ability that says “Before this

character gains 1 or more shields, you may remove 1 of his

shields to deal 1 damage to a character.”

BEFORE ABILITIES

If, during the course of a game, a before ability meets its

trigger condition, immediately resolve the before ability

before continuing to resolve the rest of the effect. In this way,

before abilities can interrupt the flow of the game.

The example even cites Qui-gons ability but not the exact point you are trying to address. \

My assessment: I think a 3 Shielded Qui-gon can still resolve his effect and then gain the 3rd shield.

ex. Qui-gons ability triggers BEFORE he receives it. It interrupts the effect of ignoring an excess of three shields.

But hey, still a good question and worth a discussion.

The key here is "before" Qui Gon gains shields and the fact you can still give/receive shields while at 3. - A character cannot have more than 3 shields. Any excess shields that would be given to the character are ignored.

Example Action: A: Resolve 2 shield Dice, I choose to give them to Qui-Gon. B: BEFORE - Qui-Gon receives 2 shields, he may spend 1 to deal 1 damage. C: Qui-Gon gains 2 shields, which would put him at 4, limit is 3, the 4th is removed.

Thats how I see it.

If Qui-Gon is at three shields and I resolve a shield die with him as the target, he doesn't gain a shield. That shield is not gained. It is ignored, per the rules above.

How can an ability that triggers before a shield is gained trigger when no shield is being gained?

If Qui-Gon is at three shields and I resolve a shield die with him as the target, he doesn't gain a shield. That shield is not gained. It is ignored, per the rules above.

How can an ability that triggers before a shield is gained trigger when no shield is being gained?

Qui-Gon can use his ability because his ability says BEFORE he gains a shield. In your example here his ability interrupts the gaining of the shield allowing you to remove one shield and deal a damage. The process of gaining the shield continues and since you are now down to 2 shields you can place a 3rd shield on Qui-Gon

If Qui-Gon is at three shields and I resolve a shield die with him as the target, he doesn't gain a shield. That shield is not gained. It is ignored, per the rules above.

How can an ability that triggers before a shield is gained trigger when no shield is being gained?

Qui-Gon can use his ability because his ability says BEFORE he gains a shield. In your example here his ability interrupts the gaining of the shield allowing you to remove one shield and deal a damage. The process of gaining the shield continues and since you are now down to 2 shields you can place a 3rd shield on Qui-Gon

I think you're missing my point. If Qui-Gon is at 3 shields and you resolve a shield die with him as the target, does he gain a shield? Yes or no?

Assume you aren't using his ability.

No he does not. But the BEFORE triggers before he receives it. The shield is only ignored if he is at three and would gain a shield, as in it lands on him. as it lands, its ignored.

The BEFORE triggers BEFORE the shield lands.

He is still gaining a shield, but the value is 0. You are still resolving the die and giving X shields to Qui-Gon. Now the fact of the matter is he is still receiving shields, but the number of shields is ignored.

keyword is before.

You can assign a shield to a character with 3 shields - it just then gets ignored. There's a battlefield that says "Give a character a shield" - imagine your characters all had 3 shields and you decide to claim the battlefield.... you don't give your OPPONENTS character a shield. you still give it to your own character, it just goes straight to the token pile, effectively being ignored.

This is why you can use Qui-Gon's "Before" key word.

I guess it depends on how you define "gain" in relation to shields. It seems like most people are OK with "gain" including situations where a shield is NOT being gained, but is instead being ignored.

He is still gaining a shield, but the value is 0. You are still resolving the die and giving X shields to Qui-Gon. Now the fact of the matter is he is still receiving shields, but the number of shields is ignored.

The shield isn't ignored before it lands though, right? It has to check if it CAN land, right?

So lets say there is a tie in when the shield checks BEFORE it lands, and when Qui-gons ability lets him discard a Shield BEFORE he receives a shield to do damage... Oh nevermind! The RRG only discusses when one or more Abilities have the same trigger sadly. But if receiving a Shield were ability-like...

RRG_1.1 Pg. 16

••If two or more abilities have the same trigger condition, the

player who controls the battlefield decides the order they

enter the queue.

I just don't see how you can use the 'before' trigger of "gains 1 or more shields" when 1 or more shields are not about to be gained. That's my key issue here.

I just don't see how you can use the 'before' trigger of "gains 1 or more shields" when 1 or more shields are not about to be gained. That's my key issue here.

My thought is that it's the resolving of the action that triggers the before trigger, not the outcome?

You're resolving an action that would give Qui-Gon 1 or more shields ---> Before trigger triggers ---> Resolve before trigger ability ----> Resolve the action of giving Qui-Gon shields, ignore shields in excess of 3.

I think it boils down to what the term "ignored" means, because you are still assigning shields to Qui-Gon but you cannot have more than 3 at any one given time. So maybe anything over 3 is overwritten may be a better term? Any other character this would not be as confusing, however Qui-Gon has the before effect, which takes place before you technically add the "ignored" shields to him. It is slightly confusing, I think the wording could be revised.

The problem is your assuming that qui-gon is gaining 0 shields before you actually perform his "before" effect. Your die does not turn to 0 shields because the target is at 3 already, the end result may be 3 after completely resolving the die which is a separate thing. I think your situation is similar to:

-Resolve Die = 2s - Qui-Gon has 3 shields = 0 shields gained.

-Qui-Gon Effect Before shields gained remove 1 etc.

-Finish Resolving Die: since 0 shields gained, could not perform before ability = wasted action.

when it should read

-Resolve Die = 2s (You are resolving a shield die on a character, that character is gaining 2 shields)

-Qui-Gon before effect - 1 shield = 1 damage

-Finish Resolving Die Qu-Gon gains 2 shields and 1 is ignored.

The problem is your assuming that qui-gon is gaining 0 shields before you actually perform his "before" effect. Your die does not turn to 0 shields because the target is at 3 already. I think your situation is similar to:

-Resolve Die = 2s - Qui-Gon has 3 shields = 0 shields gained.

-Qui-Gon Effect Before shields gained remove 1 etc.

-Finish Resolving Die: since 0 shields gained, could not perform before ability = wasted action.

when it should read

-Resolve Die = 2s (You are resolving a shield die on a character, that character is gaining 2 shields)

-Qui-Gon before effect - 1 shield = 1 damage

-Finish Resolving Die Qu-Gon gains 2 shields and 1 is ignored.

I love robut-speak.

Say it again...this time in Bocce, and slower.

I'm just goofing off. Sorry.

I am enjoying some of this rules question posts, makes ya really think about how the machine called Destiny really runs lol

So... let me see if i understand this correctly:

QGJ has 3 Shields.

I resolve a "1 shield" die on QGJ.

QGJ loses a shield and does a damage.

QGJ gains a shield.

QGJ has 3 shields.

Yay or nay?

So... let me see if i understand this correctly:

QGJ has 3 Shields.

I resolve a "1 shield" die on QGJ.

BEFORE RESOLVING a shield value dice, QGJ loses a shield and does a damage.

QGJ gains a shield by resolving a shield value dice.

QGJ has 3 shields.

Yay or nay?

After my corrections... yay.

THIS is what the rules state. This is the order of operations. No other language should be added other than what the Rules Reference guide provides. It is a common mistake to infer or "feel" the rules. You should only read them.

So... let me see if i understand this correctly:

QGJ has 3 Shields.

I resolve a "1 shield" die on QGJ.

QGJ loses a shield and does a damage.

QGJ gains a shield.

QGJ has 3 shields.

Yay or nay?

I don't see permission to resolve his ability as you have to slot that in right before he gains 1 or more shields and at no point in resolving a shield die when he's already at 3 is he going to gain 1 or more shields.

I think the question we need an answer to is as follows...

Does a shield that is ignored due to a character already having three shields still count as being gained for the purpose of abilities that trigger off of gaining shields?

The rules as written don't answer this question.

If the answer is yes, Qui-Gon's ability can be used when he has three shields.

If the answer is no, Qui-Gon's ability cannot be used when he has three shields.

I'm with Kriswall, in that the action has to QUALIFY to take place.

However, I believe it does qualify, even from this "conservative" view:

Back to the top, the initiating post states,

Shields - "A character cannot have more than 3 shields. Any excess shields that would be given to the character are ignored."

So... let me see if i understand this correctly:

QGJ has 3 Shields.

I resolve a "1 shield" die on QGJ.

BEFORE RESOLVING a shield value dice, QGJ loses a shield and does a damage.

QGJ gains a shield by resolving a shield value dice.

QGJ has 3 shields.

Yay or nay?

After my corrections... yay.

THIS is what the rules state. This is the order of operations. No other language should be added other than what the Rules Reference guide provides. It is a common mistake to infer or "feel" the rules. You should only read them.

"Before resolving a shield value die" is incorrect. It should be "Before Qui-Gon gains 1 or more shields". You're also adding language that isn't in the rules reference. Qui-Gon's ability doesn't trigger off of resolving a shield value die. It triggers before he gains a shield. Characters already at 3 shields can't gain more... unless shields that are ignored count as being gained. We need FFG to opine via FAQ/Errata.

So... let me see if i understand this correctly:

QGJ has 3 Shields.

I resolve a "1 shield" die on QGJ.

QGJ loses a shield and does a damage.

QGJ gains a shield.

QGJ has 3 shields.

Yay or nay?

I don't see permission to resolve his ability as you have to slot that in right before he gains 1 or more shields and at no point in resolving a shield die when he's already at 3 is he going to gain 1 or more shields.

I think the question we need an answer to is as follows...

Does a shield that is ignored due to a character already having three shields still count as being gained for the purpose of abilities that trigger off of gaining shields?

The rules as written don't answer this question.

If the answer is yes, Qui-Gon's ability can be used when he has three shields.

If the answer is no, Qui-Gon's ability cannot be used when he has three shields.

This is not the correct order of operations nor is it how the rules define this situation!

Refer to page 16 if the RRG. It will teach you about Triggered Abilities and what the word BEFORE means in this game and how it enters the queue.

This is not even an issue, as the rules CLEARLY define how this works.

1) You decide to resolve a shield dice

2) BEFORE your resolve the shield dice (it is now waiting in the queue and has not resolved) QGJ's ability is triggered

3) QGJ ability is sitting in the queue and resolves BEFORE the resolve dice action

4) The resolve dice action now takes place and QGJ is declared the target.

I'm with Kriswall, in that the action has to QUALIFY to take place.

However, I believe it does qualify, even from this "conservative" view:

Back to the top, the initiating post states,

Shields - "A character cannot have more than 3 shields. Any excess shields that would be given to the character are ignored."

It does not say you cannot RESOLVE a Shield die on a character with 3 shields, it simply says it cannot RECEIVE any number of Shields that WOULD take it over 3.

So, you can resolve a Shield die (value 2) ... if Qui-Gon's already at 3 - that's fine - he just WOULDN'T receive them ... but BEFORE he gains them, he does the remove 1 to do 1 damage ... THEN gains his shields (ignoring/returning 1 in this example because he'd be back to 3 Shields)

Qui-Gon's ability doesn't trigger off resolving a shield die. It triggers off (before not after) of him GAINing a shield. You seem to agree that if he's already at 3, that he won't be gaining a shield. How are you triggering his ability if he's not gaining/receiving a shield?

I'm not seeing the trigger requirement happening.

This argument can't be resolved until we get an answer to the following question.

Do shields that are ignored due to a character already having three shields still count as being gained?

The answer is super important and isn't in the rules, so far as I can tell.